During COVID there were all these people talking about 'bodily autonomy' and I felt that was overblown, vaccines are one of the best things that have happened to humanity and the only reason that a very large number of inevitably fatal or grievously harming diseases have come under control and are no longer a cause for infant mortality or lifelong paralysis.
But this is on another level, very personal and immediate and I find I can't shift my perspective to the 'common good' one here. A hospital performing surgery on you that you explicitly say you do not want and then forcing you by putting you in court through 'zoom' is such a mis-application of technology that I wonder if they remember why they are there in the first place. This does not feel like care to me.
I've been in hospital a couple of times in my life and I never had the idea that that machine that was taking care of me could turn against me. But this poor woman will most likely never want to see the inside of a hospital again.
And that took 15 years...
You Americans have completely lost it.
SilverElfin•2h ago
jacquesm•1h ago
jrflowers•53m ago
jacquesm•47m ago
jrflowers•46m ago
jacquesm•38m ago
FWIW COVID almost killed me and the vaccine came much too late, in spite of that I still had absolutely no problem getting the vaccine simply because it's a solidarity thing. Just like you're not going to go to work whilst you're contagious and so on. But I recall a lot of pointy conversations with others around that time and NL is a country where the anti-vaxx movement gained considerable ground through the way they managed to politicize (and weaponize) the skepticism around the vaccine. We have a political party here that is a very small fraction of the electorate that you could equate with the MAGA faction (or should I say republicans?) in the USA, who owe most of their votes to that era.
But if not for that vaccine I think the world would look quite a bit different today. So for collective situations I'm fine with some level of force (and to the best of my knowledge nobody actually got forced), just like we have rules for lots of other stuff. But in individual cases where the only person that is at risk of harm is the patient and absolutely nobody else the autonomy should (easily) triumph. I really don't understand what drove these medical professionals but if I had been the woman (and I'm not even a woman) I would have definitely filed a complaint with a medical ethics board about this whole thing. This should have never ever happened.
Sabinus•1h ago
Your continued employment as a healthcare worker, government worker or contractor, could be made conditional on vaccination status, though.
Hammershaft•1h ago
Vaccine mandates are more difficult. If this mother's freedom wasn't violated then she would only risk herself and her baby. If somebody doesn't take a vaccine they place risk on many other people (mostly children) who can't be vaccinated by weakening herd immunity.
dede2026•1h ago
mjevans•1h ago
Contrast the above with a case of two lives in one package. An independently functional mother and an as yet unborn child. Is it reasonable to allow the mother to risk their own life (and endanger the linked child's life) in pursuit of some belief when that risk does not spread to others? That is a very different question than one which has an impact on risk to society as a whole.
I will say, if you support enforcing a particular outcome against 'parents rights' in this case, you had better also be for more state intervention and standards upkeep with respect to ensuring that child has sufficient resources and support to become a functioning member of society. If you're willing to go that far, then I can support the logical stance of extending said support even to the point of forcing the child out of their mother against the only individual who could consent or deny consent for that effort.