Show me the billion dollar solopreneur startup, or the profit increase for companies and at that point I’ll start thinking that this tasteless high level wanking might make sense in some way

> For now I have not moved past the point of comprehension being important to me.

Ah ! This is me too... at least for what I have to ship at work. Not so much for my toy/weekend projects. But it turns out agents are also good at explaining.

Quoting the creator of CC holds little value in my opinion. I too call my product good.

> opting out of this fully machine-driven future may not be an option.

I am contemplating whether I want to stay inside this rat race.

I completely agree with the conclusion of this blog post, by the way. I feel uneasy, and I do not enjoy the work I deliver using LLMs. I think OP did a really good job on capturing at least my current state.

I'm a software developer from way back, using tools and languages that coding agents are far less familiar with.

So when I use an agent to write code, it's in languages I'm less familiar with, and often using libraries I know nothing about.

All to say, my part of the process often ends up being:

1. "Here's what I'm looking for, in detail" 2. "That's not right. Here's one way it's not right, and a specific example. Please fix that." 3. Sometimes I give suggestions for how what is going wrong might be happening, or conceptually how to work around the issue. 4. And iterate on 2-3 until the result is close enough.

That's a loop I'd love to automate.

my experimental looping build on top of pi and zx mostly pi deep seek and some skills ;-) https://github.com/topce/pizx

We used a “loop” before it was called that to drive MS-DOC support into Tritium. Based on that experience, I take issue with this:

“There are already impressive examples of large automatic porting efforts, including the reported work around moving parts of Bun from Zig to Rust.” (Emphasis added.)

It will be impressive if/when the Bun team is able to pick up and continue extending and supporting Bun. For us, MS-DOC remains read-only and probably perpetually buggy until we reimplement with a better understanding. Until then, it’s definitely not “impressive”. Functional? Maybe. Impressive, no.

Loops work when you spend the proper amount of time to understand what you want ahead of time. The prerequisite is clarity — enough clarity that you could write a careful specification that you could hand off to a junior colleague.

Often, it takes 5-6 broken crappy versions of a thing until you understand that. There is no accelerating the 5-6 broken crappy versions - there’s no agent tech that’s going to help your meat brain avoid thinking time.

So most of my time is iterating between these two phases: I don’t understand what I want, I need to read and write and play with code, okay it’s been long enough I think I know what I want (it is extremely easy to deceive yourself) … okay now I do actually know what I want and I can write a loop.

Many people think they can jump ahead with agents. You cannot fake understanding or clarity. It is painfully obviously when someone skipped that meat brain understanding phase.

My own thoughts on this, with examples https://github.com/nfcampos/loop-dev/blob/main/README.md

Yeah I don't know. Don't get me wrong, the article points makes sense. But sometimes I think that we're going to stay near this current point of productivity for a little while.

Currently my org of 8 people use around 1000 euro worth of tokens per month. We've recently had a discussion near the water-cooler, that if the cost climbs 5x-10x it may be just more worth it to get more developers (we're EU based). While the tools work and are definitely nice, even in our little org with our little budget, using Opus 4.8 we've noticed code quality going down.

If I had to bet money, I'd bet that the models will get 30-50% more nice, around 2x more expensive and we will settle into some mode where we'll use llms for some tasks, manually doing others and calling places focusing on speed at any cost some funny name like "gulags, 996, sweatshops, etc" and collectively try to somewhat avoid those places, which will need to offer a premium to attract talent. Wishful thinking.

I think this is a common sentiment among heavy users of AI that also still cares about code quality.

I've built up a skill harness and review flow that makes Opus generate slop-free code 90% of the time. But the remaining 10% requires me to stay at the helm. Especially in the early stages.

I would love to use loops to automate more, but I couldn't do it with the current generation models.

And on the back of my mind I'm still evaluating the possible future where we are forced to API pricing. I'm currently paying $400 for Opus, and use around 1.5-2 billion tokens per day. This will cost around $20k/m with API pricing. And I don't want to even imagine the possible scenario of getting locked out of frontier models because of politics.

Will the models get better to cut me out of the loop completely? I believe so. Will the open source models catch up tho SOTA models, and diversify from China-only? I hope so. Otherwise 2 superpowers will wield a soft power that can cripple the tech industries of all other countries.

I keep thinking about at which point I should not force myself into the loop. As a developer I really like working on the code structure, making it clearer, thinking about good abstraction, breaking into modules, etc. I really take pleasure in it. At the same time I understand that at some point I am becoming the limiting factor.

If the point of the software is benefit people, should I still care about how the code looks.

Right now, I still think that the answer is yes, but in 3 years? in 10 years?

One of the biggest problems with LLMs has turned out to be the cost of actually running them and this strategy functions as a usage multiplier.

> My current status is that I have not had much success with this way of working for code I deeply care about

If something is judgement heavy, "code i care deeply about", then i don't really agree with the direction of travel here. Don't try to delegate decisions you care deeply about.

I do like the framing of agent loop vs harness loop, but only delegate stuff that you can accurately specify in advance, that usually means stuff that's repeatable in my case ("hey go see how i did X, do that but for Y"), and that inherently means stuff that's predictable.

For stuff where lack of my judgement as input is just going to cause me to say "no", we're down to collaborating in the "agent loop" as Armin puts it. And that's totally fine. It's fast, but also safe.

Remember before AI coding assistants, sometimes you'd get an engineer join your team who was SUPER productive, your peers would be jealous "oh yeah but you guys only got all that done because you have X on your team!" - they didn't live the curse of having that kind of person around - if you don't have them PERFECTLY aligned, then they run off at break neck speed in the wrong direction.

We've had great success with agents thus far at my job. A year into Clauding and all our dev metrics are up while our downtime has remained steady.

Being an iOS engineer, much of my engineering cycle these days is going from Figma/PRD → spec → code. After being handed off to QA, we handle the bugs and product slips as they come through, while we simultaneously build/spec the upcoming addition. This is basically the same agile style that's been popular for 20y, just super-powered with agents.

How might someone accomplish the same goals using loops instead?

This is a very fatalistic take. While I understand where it's coming from, I try not to share the same mindset: engineers getting increasingly distant from how things are getting built is not something that will "undoubtedly happen, whether we like it or not".

Also:

> Now there is obviously a question if this desire to understand the code is one that I will still have a few years from now.

I do not think we should be having doubts like this. Either you consider understanding the code you ship and allowing your future self to be able to work on the system you're building to be a value, or you don't. I, for one, do, and I do not think using LLMs and coding agents will affect my point of view on that.

This is the best essay on agentic coding I've read. Clear thinking and writing, pragmatic about the future of agent-led coding.

If you usually skip straight to the comments, you might want to actually read this one.

I honestly wonder if this kind of stuff really brings something to the table. Like I use opus for sometime and certainly I can put it to good use and optimize some parts of my day to day job (programmer). But it fails so hard in such simple tasks that it seems to me that putting it in loop can't just magically make everything better, unassisted. Does anyone actually uses agents and loops to create new software, new technology? Has anyone created with those systems, software they couldn't produce otherwise technologically wise? Or is it at best just an accelerator, cutting off on the building time?

As much as I like Claude Code, Boris has done a lot of harm by encouraging software engineering practices that lead to slopware. We have two camps of people at work, the first camp are the agent goes brrr. They don't understand the code they write. They have loops running, agent orchestrators or agent hype du jour. The second camp is people who are inundated with PRs, are holding the line on quality, and just exhausted. We've also had some management pressures where they think people are wasting time looking at code. Perhaps because some podcast they might be listening to, somebody says coding is largely solved.

> I don’t prompt Claude anymore. I have loops running that prompt Claude and figuring out what to do. My job is to write loops.

This is going to be a net negative on software quality for people who take this up, in my opinion.

I call out Boris but I also don't think he's being malicious. He's at the center of an important technological revolution and it would be hard not to get excited. I just wished he advocated for a more balanced and a realistic perspective.

Looping is (currently) a side effect of token subsidies.

If token costs are nil, then you can afford to run verification and generation through the same models. If token costs are high, then you will go broke verifying code sprawl.

Currently costs are (mostly) absent from the conversation, even though costs are what decide the limits which shape experience.

Also: Firms can be held liable for the products they sell, so if code cannot be reviewed then that code is essentially a law suit waiting to happen. I believe this is what customers will be demanding in the future: someone to hold accountable when things go wrong.

The issue is that whilst the loops will initially lead to good results they will be less and less as context gets bigger and bigger and tougher to understand for human and AI.

So it depends really on the size of your project.

There's _way_ more than one way to do "loops". I just asked one of my superviors/auditors to document how it's been working while monitoring a few other agents that have long-term goals:

https://gist.github.com/rcarmo/4922b550ab48bf0b4246c77e606a5...

>Yet even with a lot of manual steering, that type of code does not come out of LLMs naturally, and even if the code comes out naturally like that, they will still attempt to handle now impossible errors.

This is something I’ve struggled to fight against in many PR reviews. Especially once already written, convincing someone that their excessive null checking is harmful is an uphill battle. Short of better modeling (and languages that allow for sum types to enable it), I haven’t been able to come up with a universally convincing argument against this kind of “shotgun parsing.”

Maybe it really just isn’t that big of a deal? But when actually reading through and refactoring a codebase I’ve always found it frustrating to manage these unnecessary checks. Sometimes they’re nearly impossible to delete safely once present without first adding some kind of logging or broad investigation.

> the right fix is not "handle every malformed case." ... [LLMs] will still attempt to handle now impossible errors.

This is the number one code smell from LLMs and I don't know why they are so obsessed with it. In python, it often comes as `hasattr` checks on types that are defined to have that attribute, in a code base that is fully type-checked.

Why do they do that? Is it from pre-training or re-enforcement? If that latter, can the labs please fix this?

The post suggests fear about a surge of increasing amounts of code by loops and loops of agents.

I don’t know if I like the current world without it though.

80% of different teams code the code is poorly tested. The code doesn’t handle data consistency or asynchronous code properly because the engineers don’t know better (and frankly don’t care enough).

Dependency handling is poorly managed leading to low quality operations with improper dashboards, alarms, and ops.

Badly managed processes leads to people doing monkey work signing off checklists rather than automation.

Frankly… why is keeping any of that good? It really pisses me off seeing people accept any of that low quality but that standard is the default and not the outlier.

A friendly reminder to just do 9 to 5 and touch lots of grass. None of this shit represents industry trends, majority of people still use chat interfaces and copy blocks of code. There’s zero early adopter advantage here, only FOMO and lots of anxiety.

In my own ham-fisted experiments with coding loops, one pathology I have noticed is that the LOC just spirals out of control. That's likely because of the layers of defensive fixes, etc., that get built. That inevitably causes context bloat (or at least navigational friction) and results in quality decline.

I wonder how many loop-related issues could be addressed by simply fixing a LOC budget, or assigning a cost in some way. Unclear how you would dial in the right numbers, though.

I think there's 2 important, but separate, ideas in this post:

- Models are not good at or getting better at creating strong invariants, which his fundamental to good software

- It is unclear how to keep tabs on what the agent is doing, so you, a human, can intervene.

These are related, obviously: one of the highest-leverage things you can do is force you agent to use a strong, minimal set of types or data invariants or other constraints. They get much better when your codebase broadly supports this!

I do suspect they're separable, though.

If you had the right levers and visibility, you should be able to get the model to produce code that doesn't feel like slop. But every time I've had a model try to keep me in the loop, it inundates me with irrelevant decisions and busywork. Its inability to see what's structurally important still shows up, just differently.

[If the models get better at defining and respecting invariants, maybe there's a new flavor of slop, that's less obvious today.]

These new AI trends are very tiresome, very similar to 2021 crypto mania - both trigger a lot of FOMO. If we have loops that write code and we don't need to verify anything, why are the devs still here? What's point of even learning this new trick as a dev if you truly believe that this can be used without any intervention? If loops work then it follows that a loop of loop works too - why hire any people at all? Just run a bunch of loops and build a profitable business, but then what's your moat? Any person can now launch loops on top of loops.

No.

(I mean, OK, so I can't just write that, because of some rule or another. But really, just no, at this point, surely? How is it we are so actively turning software development into some weird blend of cargo cults, homeopathy, prosperity gospel and penal treadmills? Chasing trend after trend from corporate influencers with motivated reasoning who are trying to create new cultures that entrench their weird inscrutable metered intelligence taps? Handing over this level of control to and for the benefit of the sociopathic or solipsistic executives of two companies that cannot demonstrate they will ever make a profit, backed by a handful of other companies who are stirring money around in a pot to make it look like they are still generating value? Can we stop? Please? Please?)

No.

(And also no: it was not, in fact, this bad before. No matter how you try to retcon it. It was not good. But it was also not this insanely nihilistic)

Theres a deep insight in this post about the value of looping for throw away code to explore a problem space, rather than brute force a problem by just applying more tokens and hoping.

The more I play in this space, the more I’m drawn to the idea that some kind of back tracking constraint solver is a better solution than then the current naive while loop / brute force approach here.

The results I see are similar to what you get from a greedy brute force constraint solver; solves trivial problems, sometimes solves harder problems after a long time, takes too long to solve really hard problems; solutions are increasingly non optimal on average as complexity goes up.

We have so much existing knowledge about building good constraint solvers, if we could just figure out how to apply it here somehow.

> You Cannot Quite Opt Out

I am so over this. I cannot take anyone seriously that claims inevitability of their ideas, and how you must adopt them without "being left behind". If these tools are so good and so capable the result should be able to speak for themselves rather than this FOMO inducing, emotional language.