Additionally, the main authors behind ML-KEM are all european. The design of ML-KEM is "very boring", in the sense that it's essentially the scheme that most (lattice) cryptographers would have suggested. There were 2 other NIST PQC schemes that went very far (New Hope and Saber) that were essentially the same scheme (there were minor technical differences, but it's really not that big).
So all the companies who want to sell anything using TLS to the government want to standardize this, so they can be CNSA2 compliant.
Everyone already supports this in major libraries; but some folks feel they need an IETF RFC specifying it.
(I don't have to comply with CNSA2 so I might have details slightly off)
https://blog.cr.yp.to/20220805-nsa.html
> Some people seem to be unable to rationally consider the possibility that NSA is sabotaging post-quantum cryptography. I've heard people saying, for example, that submissions to the NIST Post-Quantum Cryptography Standardization Project (NISTPQC) were publicly designed and evaluated by top experts, and that NSA can't have bribed the submission teams. > > Let's look at the facts.
Note that the authors of ML-KEM are overwhelming European.
That’s pretty weak just stripping down the hybrid approach.
This is about a separate RFC with "recommended to implement = no".
If the IETF was trying to have these positions swapped, it would be consistent with DJBs post. It is not though. His post does not seem to be grounded in reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznyechik#Cryptanalysis
(the work by Perrin that is mentioned is what I'm referring to).
The (pure) mlkem standard is also marked "recommended to implement = No". people are interested in implementing it. The IETF can't change that. They can try to ensure such implementations are interoperable though.
Maybe giving this thread more visibility here than it wants but ...
https://bsky.app/profile/filippo.abyssdomain.expert/post/3mp...
(Personally it seems so so unacceptable to me to accuse so many good hardworking people of such bitter conspiracy.)
This tactic is explicitly called out in RFC 7282, and named as a "degenerate", "pathological", and "dysfunctional" state for the working group to be in. Shame on DJB for attempting to drive the working group into terminal dysfunction.
I'm out of fresh tin-foil hats as well, but it would not surprise me in the least if any government was actively engaged in weakening security and privacy protections.
Literally look at what they are all doing in almost every sphere. The current political zeitgeist is all about automated surveillance everywhere. The motivations are worn on their sleeves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOBUS
DES key-size weakening is consistent with NOBUS (given the computational dominance of the US at the time). DUAL_EC_DRBG is consistent with NOBUS. DES S-box strengthening (vs linear/differential cryptanalysis, I forget which) is also consistent with NOBUS.
There have been *no* proposed mechanism that would allow NSA to have a NOBUS-style attack against ML-KEM.
Separately, this RFC (pure ML-KEM) is marked "recommended to implement = N". It is highly likely all browsers etc will use hybrids. In certain areas (say hardware) it is not free to use a hybrid. You all of a sudden need both a SHA2 and SHA3 implementation, for example. Some organizations that view the threat of quantum computers as more credible may also not want to drag around the ECC component (which is known to be broken, once a CRQC appears. Google and the US government have publicly stated concerns this may occur within the next ~5 years after recent QC breakthroughs).
There are already codepoints assigned for MLKEM 512/768/1024 (0x0200, 0x0201, 0x0202) and nearly every major library supports it already:
- OpenSSL (ML-KEM-512/768/1024)
- BoringSSL (ML-KEM-1024)
- NSS (ML-KEM-1024)
- AWS-LC (ML-KEM-512/768/1024)
- Rustls (ML-KEM-768/1024)
- s2n-tls (ML-KEM-1024)
- Bouncy Castle (ML-KEM-512/768/1024)
- Botan (ML-KEM-512/768/1024)
- GnuTLS (ML-KEM-768/1024)
- WolfSSL (ML-KEM-512/768/1024)That post says very clearly at the beginning that hybrids are the preferred approach right now.
No one except the NSA actually wants a non-hybrid.
Which raises the question what is the NSA up to.
Especially since the NSA has a mission statement, a track record, and a billion dollar budget to subvert other peoples cryptography. When they aren't beyond transparent why should anyone give them the benefit of the doubt?
- European group could not be infiltrated by a state-actor with 100billion/y budget and a history of doing so?
- NOBUS today would not be secret in the algorithm but a quantum algorithm/device. Just a month ago HN was getting flooded with "PQC is probably required by 2030".
Ironically, this (delaying PQC rollout/standardization) is arguably what DJB has been doing the ~decade, and what his current post is doing.
The linked piece is not representative of the broader cryptography community. ML-KEM is fine.
Someone elsewhere in the thread mentioned downgrade attacks. I presume if you wanted, on either the client or the server, you could disallow pure ML-KEM if you didn't trust it, preventing this vector.
I don't know much about the hardware space - what do you make of the author's post that there hasn't been an articulated need for pure PQ encryption, where the device couldn't afford ECC.
The use of dual algorithms is without doubt the prudent decision for a transition period.
ML-KEM is still too new for anyone to be able to claim that no way to break it will be discovered in the next few years.
This is supported by the fact that one of the algorithms previously proposed for standardization has already been broken, which was a surprise.
Because ML-KEM is significantly more expensive than the current algorithm, using both does not increase much the cost.
The arguments of DJB are perfectly valid, which is why at the previous meeting most people have voted like him.
I know very well everything that DJB has published during the last 30 years, many of which have been important advances in cryptography. Some of his work has been very influential in the development of "post-quantum" cryptography and he was one of the main promoters of the idea that such cryptographic algorithms must be standardized ASAP.
Moreover, I have also run continuously on my servers, 24/7, for about a quarter of century, various programs written by DJB, which unlike the majority of the programs that I have ever seen, have done very well whatever they were intended to do, without ever needing any updates for security problems or other bugs. Very few programmers, even among the best, can present such a resume.
I do not believe that "crank" is the right word to describe DJB. It is true that he has distinguished himself by an unwillingness to accept compromises, even when he was for various reasons in opposition with the US government, but I do not think that this is crazy. On the contrary, I believe that the world is how it is right now precisely because most people go with the flow and they are eventually willing to accept almost anything when opposing that appears to be too difficult. Things would have been much better if there had been more such "cranks".
realxrobau•2h ago
The latest post to the list, as of this post, is supporting the anti-ecdhe side, with the reasoning being that there is no code written for ecdhe, which is obviously stretching the truth beyond reasonable doubt.