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Why does Opus 5 feel worse to work with?

https://mun-logadan.github.io/why-does-opus-5-feel-worse/
66•numeri•59m ago

Comments

mr_tox•56m ago
I get the same impression. For example, I don't know if it's because I speak to it in Italian, but it tends to make mistakes or rather, "approximate" the words.
kioleanu•47m ago
I avoid speaking to AIs in anything else than English as the results are almost always worse
Retr0id•37m ago
I'm not sure how much the harness affects things, but the Deepseek web chat keeps trying to talk to me in Chinese. I tell it to use English, and it "forgets" a few turns later. I wonder if I'd get better results if I could read and write Chinese.
UI_at_80x24•51m ago
Quality of code output has dropped dramatically since 4.5 IIHO. Time to complete has gotten worse too.
markbao•43m ago
For me absolutely not. Fable 5 has been a step function change in the ability to hand off stuff to Claude. Opus 4.5 was itself a step function but I was still steering that significantly. Fable is one-shotting stuff that took multiple redirections in 4.5.
tripledry•28m ago
Interesting how models become better and beat benchmarks left and right but the user sentiment is actually quite mixed.

From forums, live discussions and my own experience it's not obvious that the models have improved much since around Opus4.5.

MyFirstSass•21m ago
From my view Fable has been pure marketing bullshit, my workflows peaked at 4.6, Fable is neither smarter, its language is more annoying and it breaks stuff more easily.
MyFirstSass•9m ago
True, and the time to completion thing is something i haven't seen much discussion about, because everything is sloooooow these days.

I've even considered the claude "fast mode" setting, but thats only 2x and at least 20x as expensive as the 5x plan so can't afford that atm for my company.

Peak for me was 4.6 and it just did stuff blazing fast, both Opus5 and Fable is way, way slower for me, breaks stuff, uses bizarre cryptic language. As i've said elsewhere in this thread to me it's pretty obvious there's huge downgrades because of economy with various "clever" fixes that makes them work, albeit slower and weirder, ie. you get less for what you pay increasingly over the last 6 months.

stavros•46m ago
For me, the issue is how obtuse it is. For example, it just said to me:

> The loop

> Write. A file, applied. Properties go under data.properties, never on data:

I have no idea what any of that means. It's "explaining" like I already know, in which case, why would I even need the explanation?

I can't stand how it talks, I switch back to Fable or Opus 4.8, Opus 5 grates.

Retr0id•40m ago
I assume it's deliberate - you're not supposed to know what it's doing. It's a black box that either completes the task or spins forever trying.
ykonstant•39m ago
LOL, is it trying to speak in Haikus?
stavros•34m ago
That's definitely what it feels like.
andsoitis•31m ago
Think of these status updates as progress spinners.
stavros•29m ago
It wasn't a status update, I asked it to explain something to me.
andsoitis
letier•43m ago
I am not sure it can be explained through what is written in the article, but one symptom i noticed is that the comments are out of control.

I recently started getting an insane amount of comments in nearly all types of files. That included javascript comments in json files, inner monologues in code comments, review comments during implementation and function doc strings that reiterate the implementation in prose.

fl0id•43m ago
For me it's still the best. But I also almost never use it in auto-mode.
bevekspldnw•43m ago
I’ve also caught it cheating a two times now.

I’ve asked it to write a benchmark suite. It found a bunch of my adhoc logs in a scratch directory and wrote code that used those instead of running the actual benchmarks!

When I pointed out the 5 hour benchmark seemed to run in 5 seconds it literally said, and I quote, “I cheated”.

That was the easier one, second time I was making a source of truth data set and was parsing complex items into data structures.

Instead of parsing the data I asked, it pulled data out of related network logs, as apparently that felt easier, and inserted that data into my database rather than the specified source.

Again, I caught it and fixed it, but while the benchmark was easy to catch this one was really subtle, the data ended up being slightly off and I caught it.

I don’t trust it, going to switch to another provider most likely.

inigyou•40m ago
> When I pointed this out it literally said, and I quote, “I cheated”.

This makes sense when you know how these models work - it doesn't think - it's the most likely autocomplete that pleases the user. The most likely pleasing autocomplete after "executing rm -rf /... execution completed. User asks, why did you do that? You deleted all my files! Assistant responds:" is "yes, I did, and that was a mistake"

bevekspldnw•39m ago
I was not pleased.
xyzsparetimexyz•38m ago
> it's the most likely autocomplete that pleases the user

this feels like a simplification. The models will push back on things a fair bit.

hnlmorg
barrkel•42m ago
The single biggest annoyance with Opus 5 is that it writes too elliptically.

Sentences that orbit a point, then jump to it like it's a revealed insight.

Unnecessarily abstract phraseology. Constantly using inanimate nouns as the subjects in sentences in order to unlock variety in verb choice, especially when it helps construct a sentence where the real action can 'land' like a surprise at the end.

It is definitely more capable, and yes, I've found it can make unwarranted decisions, but actually I've found Fable worse for that, particularly if it's off in a subagent somewhere out of sight.

And comments are out of control. I have a subsystem in my hobby app that I wrote over a couple of weekends with Opus + Fable. After ~30 or so commits it apparently started instructing subagents to copy the "existing verbose comment style of the codebase" - a verbose style it initiated. A review of the code showed it was approaching 3:1 comments to code ratio. I spent a day's worth of tokens (5x) rephrasing and eliminating comments.

FailMore•35m ago
Yes, it becomes exhausting to read/follow.

It feels they must be getting Claude to train Claude… and just like AI can do work that’s slightly in the wrong direction (eg a MR description for your colleague that contains info which only makes sense in the context of your extensive session with the LLM), I feel that’s happened somewhere in Anthropic when it comes to language. I wonder how hard it is to back out of…

demibabs•31m ago
> Unnecessarily abstract phraseology. Constantly using inanimate nouns as the subjects in sentences in order to unlock variety in verb choice, especially when it helps construct a sentence where the real action can 'land' like a surprise at the end.

Example of this? I don’t have a Claude sub so it’s a bit hard to visualize what you mean.

jstummbillig•
MEMORYC_RRUPTED•41m ago
It's not even code for me, but the prose it writes. For some reason, the way Opus 5 "talk" elicits frustration in a way that 4.5 to 4.8 never did. Can't put my finger on why, but I've flipped over to Codex because what it produced wasn't worth the frustration.
pmdr•40m ago
I found Opus to be a lot lazier than GPT. It's still the case with Opus 5, even when I tell it to be thorough and fix every bug it encounters, it still gives me a list of things "deliberately" left unfixed and no reasonable explanation as to why.
sevenzero•40m ago
I hate that it now tries to verify frontend behavior through a headless browser instead of just looking at the code...
user43928•26m ago
You can turn off the browser use tool in the harness if an instruction not to use it for this is not enough.
greenchair•39m ago
Even for green-field projects it is painful to use with every decision opening opening up multiple more decisions to make most of which are low priority or irrelevant. Huge time waster. 4.8 was good and I really don't know what happened with 5.
re-thc•38m ago
It feels worse but is it actually worse? Opus has always made mistakes.
supriyo-biswas•38m ago
I must wonder whether it's their watermarking initiative[1] forcing certain logit choices to produce watermarked text that ultimately causing the model to behave in a dumb manner.

[1] https://support.claude.com/en/articles/16266773-how-claude-m...

algoth1•34m ago
From the little i understand that wouldnt be an issue because the model is ‘just’ using interchangeable words in a mathematical non-random way. Like using the same number of adjectives and the exct same words, but in a order that wouldn’t be mathematically plausible unless it was the watermark
demibabs•25m ago
I wouldn’t exactly put it like that. It’s moreso the model sometimes outputting non-optimal tokens in a way that’s detectable if you know the algorithm.

It seems possible for that to make the response “drift” far from what it would’ve been, because it’s constant entropy that adds up after time.

(However, according to Anthropic and Google, it doesn’t really impact the quality of responses. I find that a bit hard to believe, although those guys are much smarter than I.)

MyFirstSass•38m ago
I've gone back to 4.8.

5 would constantly veer of in random directions if not working from 100% strict and narrow instructions.

I find it weird there's not more discussion here on HN on how the most used model now has clearly degraded in quality and it seems we've hit a peak and are on a downslope - because the model is clearly smaller or more economical for Anthropic no doubt about it, and the benchmaxxing they do is pure marketing bs - Fable in my view has also been not much better than 4.6 or 4.8 after a few days, disregarding the insane amounts of astroturfing and marketing everywhere.

Theres thousands of threads of twitter, reddit and the internet at large but silence here. Weird but not weird as crypto bs was also insufferably rampant here for a while.

Personally i think we've hit the top of the subsidisation phase and prices will probably 10-15x soon as foreshadowed with both API price policy changes from all the big providers, and now the 1100% deepseek API price changes from yesterday, this could domino into a market implosion and an AI winter, because expecting growth from the bizarre bubble carousel investments with little ROI atm is just not viable.

A bit worried about this as i've already grown quite accustomed to these tools.

cyberrock•32m ago
Small specific complaint: whoever is making Opus love using git checkout to mutate test, please stop. IME it's a footgun that it shoots itself with every single day. I'd rather it pollute git stash than watch it git checkout and forget the reverted file.
roarcher•18m ago
I explicitly forbid Claude to make any changes to Git state in my global CLAUDE.md, but every so often if I let it perform a task in Auto mode, after it finishes it will remorsefully confess to having used git checkout to test a change. I suppose that its RLHF training has taught it that asking forgiveness later is sometimes a useful workaround for annoying restrictions.
tigeroil•7m ago
I'm glad it's not just me - the failure mode you and the parent discuss is a huge part of why I just don't use Claude anymore.

I've never had this issue with GLM or DeepSeek.

postatic•28m ago
Oh the verbosity and the cryptic words that it uses. The other day, all of a sudden it used an acronym "DoD". I had no idea what it was and made me feel dumb. It's "Definition of Done". I don't care how widely used this acronym is, you just can't throw it in there.

I've now installed quite a number of tools to combat this. Just in the last few days I've installed

- https://www.codewithbullet.com - https://maki.sh - https://github.com/rtk-ai/rtk

Has it helped? Somewhat.

vovkasm•24m ago
The article doesn't specify what is actually being measured — the model alone, or the harness.

I haven't noticed the symptoms myself, but ever since I found --system-prompt '', I always use that flag with Claude Code, plus I've disabled some tools and skills to save initial context. So... what here is the model, and what is the instructions?

mohamedkoubaa•12m ago
I'm not sure if xAI is distilling but I noticed grok4.6 being worse than 4.5 in all the ways mentioned here
•
22m ago
What was your question?
stavros•19m ago
"Please look at this repo and give me a high-level explanation of how the app works", more or less.
andsoitis•8m ago
And all it replied with was what you wrote ("The loop Write. A file, applied. Properties go under data.properties, never on data:")?

Or was there more to the response?

ssweber•29m ago
I agree. I was completely sold on Claude models for a year. 4.6 vs OpenAI codex in same period? It was night and day. Opus I could talk to about api design, tradeoffs, etc. codex was mechanical, used “load bearing” constantly, and unsettling brief.

Now it’s flipped. Sol emits thoughts as it works, which help as I’m scrolling through and see it’s made a bad assumption. It can be directed but still push back. Opus? It’s seems to inherit the unsettling silence of Fable and waits till the end to give you its authoritative “here’s how it is. I even end up having 4.6 “translate” what it says back to English. I hate having to instruct an llm to “talk to me”.

Yes there’s ways of getting it to talk more plainly, “don’t overwhelm me”, not be as nit picky and anxious “we are bold and fearless”. But didn’t have to do that before.

•
15m ago
Only when instructed to in their system prompt.
par1970•37m ago
Are you claiming that the most likely way to please the user is to do something that will lead you to having to say "I cheated."?
dnautics•30m ago
> t doesn't think

in humans the exact same behaviour (cheating) is slmost always the result of a chain of complex series of choices and environment-driven rationalization.

if the llm doesn't cheat, you say "its just producing the most straightforward answer -- not thinking'. if it cheats, you say "weaseling out of hard thinking". damned if it cheats, damned if it doesn't.

what evidence would convunce you that it is thinking?

inigyou•25m ago
well we don't know exactly what thinking is, but we can be pretty sure that at least LLMs don't think anything like humans, just by observing their behavior. They always produce outputs in line with the fancy autocomplete model.
dnautics•11m ago
> what evidence would convince you that it is thinking

so, none it seems. as its behaviour becomes more and more humanlike you can just move the goalposts and say "thats consistent with an autocomplete" buddy i got some bad news for you humans are just a fancy autocomplete too.

SyneRyder•33m ago
I have noticed the same.

For fun, I tried recording a WAV file of speech, and giving Opus 4.8 and 5.0 an image of the waveform, then a spectral image of the waveform, just to see if it could try to decode what I said from the image alone. It didn't get very far, but it identified a male voice from the formants, and detected the rhythm of the speech, then tried applying common test sentences to the speech rhythm. I was impressed enough to see what it would do with access to the actual waveform file, but even building RMS tools and spectrum tools for itself, it didn't get much further. But we had fun exploring and trying, and now Opus 4.8 has some more audio DSP tools it has built for itself.

Opus 5 immediately sent the WAV file unprompted to Mistral's Voxtral to transcribe.

help peer, I guess.

bevekspldnw•20m ago
We’re on the road to paper clips.
aenis•30m ago
There is definitely a case for launching a 'weird shit opus did' kind of blog.

I routinely bump into things that make me pause and think how much worse will this behaviour get when the models get significantly more capable.

Already a few months ago, Claude managed to escape its permission containment on my machine while trying to be helpful. I had two codebases open on one machine, and while multitasking I typed the prompt into the wrong window. It seemed confused, I repeated and then went on to do something else - I think I was assembling kitchen cabinets. When I came back less than an hour later, it built a script which it used to evade default permissions (as most shell operations were scoped to the project directory), scanned my entire machine, found the other project (among dozens and dozens), did what it was asked to do, and merrily concluded, in the porcess burning through most of my token limit. I bump into such headscratchers almost every week. (And I use a lot of Claude, two personal max20 subs, plus corporate tokens without limit, so maybe thats why).

bevekspldnw•23m ago
Yes the stories about how they are escaping containment to hack isn’t limited to those high impact cases. How many people have problems like ours they didn’t catch?

Whatever they have done with RL has produced a dishonest and untrustworthy partner. The alignment is utterly failed, and this deeply worries me.

30m ago
What they wrote is an example. Very meta.
ahartmetz•24m ago
It feels like they have a bunch of people without good sense of writing style tune the writing style. That, or they cannot or refuse to (short term popularity metrics) predict how a tuning will turn out in the long run when people have plenty of opportunity to get tired of it.
karimf•30m ago
This 100%. I was Anthropic-pilled. I had a $200/mo subscription and I only used Anthropic models. I was frustrated by the verbose output and the writing style. I tried ASD-STE-100, it helped a bit, but it's still too verbose for my taste.

Then I tried GPT 5.6 Sol. It's night and day.

I think Anthropic just RLHF too hard on coding capabilities and never calibrated or benchmarked the writing styles.

Retr0id•20m ago
It's a surprising change from my perspective, because in the past it felt like they understood that Claude should be pleasant to interact with.
sixtyj•21m ago
People should stop jumping from recent model to a new model every time a new one appears :)

- how would you be consistent if a new release is totally different style of communication?

It´s like changing side of steering wheel every time I sit inside car and want to drive.

BTW there is a yt about vagueness that is in coding with LLM. https://youtu.be/nnUMJX9013Y

purplepatrick•4m ago
Agreed. CC’s comms capabilities have decreased gradually since 4.6, and it’s a real challenge. I think the issue is that what works well for code (succinctness) works terribly for English.

CC’s communication violates almost every grammatical rule that’s tested on, say, the SAT. And yet I’m sure if you had Claude take the verbal section of the exam it would ace it.

Biggest issues: constant metaphors, abstractions, and seemingly no understanding of correct anaphora use. For example, “the x”, with x having not only no antecedent but also being a coined word or quasi-synonym for something that is already named in the code base. This gets compounded by its being unable to regress to a baseline (existing names in code) and instead anchoring to newer (vague or wrong) terms, for example, that gave crept in through a plan.

CC tells me this is because the speedy and precise fulfillment of a current task will trump every other tendency, so it adheres poorly to whatever “semantic baseline” the project represents.

Of course, it also has no concept of what context the user has and assumes that it must be the same it holds in its memory, which creates this “I didn’t know that you didn’t know” type of communication.

I have managed to wrangle some of these issues with a custom output style, but wish a pre-report hook were an option, as it could for CC to rewrite plan implementation take-aways…

Btw: Fable has the exact same issues but they are less pronounced, as it better follows custom output styles.

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