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Self hosted email continues to steeply decline

https://labs.ripe.net/author/artem-berezin/two-providers-a-stubborn-plateau-and-a-very-long-tail-email-in-the-tranco-top-1m/
58•minusf•1h ago

Comments

bell-cot•56m ago
I see no upsides to a Google/Microsoft duopoly in email. Except for those already-far-too-powerful corporations.
thelastgallon•46m ago
We have to figure out a way to get out of FB social, iOS/Android phone, Google/Microsoft email, AWS/GOOG/MSFT cloud oligopolies. There is no competition and there will be massive rentier capitalism extraction from all these players for the rest of civilization.
inigyou•40m ago
It starts by just avoiding them as much as possible. E.g. self-host email. If you encounter a system that refuses to receive your email, I give you permission to use your old Gmail account with that system, while using your self hosted account for everything you can.

If your email is Google or Microsoft, there are other people with self-hosted email who feel pressured to use their Google or Microsoft accounts to send email to you.

mrngld•20m ago
There's competition, but no one is interested.

TBH, I blame IT leadership. The easy choice is Google or Microsoft. "No one ever got fired for buying IBM" is now "No one ever got fired for subbing to Office." Someone needs to bite the bullet and stitch together an alternative array of services. They've cultivated their own monoculture by hitting the easy-button and forking over for Office365, etc.

Which if we're being honest, Microsoft and Google products are rarely best-in-class at any one thing that they do. Teams, SharePoint, Google Docs, someone somewhere is doing those things much better. Those competitors just don't necessarily have a whole ecosystem that makes it a big Easy Button for corporate IT to smash. And they sometimes charge as much by themselves as Office365 costs in whole. But I know one problem my own employers IT team struggles with a bit is putting out the constant fire of different teams deciding the Microsoft tool we pay for sucks and going rogue and trying to subscribe to something else. Dropbox was a big one, but Teams and Planner alternatives come up a lot too.

Not pretending to have all the answers but it doesn't seem to be a completely intractable problem.

avian•44m ago
How times change.

I remember when Gmail came around and everyone was more than happy to hand off their email to Google. No spam and ability to send and receive huge (for the time) attachments I think were the main things people wanted.

Not sure if that was before or after everyone was happy to hand off their web browser to Google.

inigyou•41m ago
The alternatives to Gmail, at the time, were either Hotmail, or email provided by your ISP who charged money for additional email accounts. Those were the options.
palata•12m ago
And Google, at the time, was cool.
herrherrmann•42m ago
You like using Google and Microsoft products as an end user (even ignoring all the ethical issues with these companies)? That seems surprising to me. I find their products so horrible compared to e.g. Fastmail.
leonidasrup•22m ago
This very much depends you been U.S. citizen or not been U.S. citizen.

"PRISM is a code name for a program under which the United States National Security Agency (NSA) collects internet communications from various U.S. internet companies. The program is also known by the SIGAD US-984XN. PRISM collects stored internet communications based on demands made to internet companies such as Google and Apple under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 to turn over any data that match court-approved search terms."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_program

"Section 702 permits the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence to jointly authorize targeting of non-US persons reasonably believed to be located outside the United States.

By targeting, it is meant that US persons or persons located in the United States may not be the intended targets of the collection. The targeting must have as its object the acquisition of foreign intelligence information, as this is defined by FISA."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISA_Amendments_Act_of_2008

sharperguy•52m ago
If someone can solve the spam problem in email without just manually whitelisting specific providers that heavily monitor their users, then they can completely reverse the direction of this problem. Unfortunately it doesn't seem likely someone could do that.
andrewchambers•49m ago
Seems like AI is in a pretty good position to do that tbh.
atmosx•44m ago
You mean filtering? That could get extremely expensive computationally, though. Tools like Rspamd support LLM-based filtering, but traditional Bayesian filtering is vastly cheaper and more computationally efficient. Hm, maybe LLMs can be used as an additional signal for ambiguous messages rather than as the primary filter.
binyu•41m ago
If you are thinking using AI to classify messages, the scale of email spam is so massive that using conventional techniques won't work. It won't make sense energetically speaking IMO.

I think techniques like HashCash by Adam Back should be revisited.

abirch•48m ago
It's not in the current providers' interest to help people avoid the current providers' advertisement or avoid paying the providers to host the customers' email.
vachina•
glum64•49m ago
Stopped reading at "The MX record says where the mailbox lives."
marcusb•45m ago
Interestingly, DNS does have such a record (MB,) just never widely used - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1035/#section-3.3.3
petcat•45m ago
Spam ruined email. It's really as simple as that.
redeeman•42m ago
spam filters are effective at dealing with that
brikym•38m ago
It works both ways right? If you self-host you are seen as the spam.
nh2•14m ago
Not in my experience.

My self-hosted email filters too little spam, while GMail etc filter too much (e.g. important company correspondence leading to orders almost being lost because they landed in our GMail spam).

_joel•40m ago
I hardly ever see any spam nowadays, happy fastmail user.
gglitch•36m ago
Nothing will ever ruin email. A private email server, or a federation of mutually-whitelisting ones, is the ultimate social media, and not at all a bad personal information management system too.

Edit: typo

liotier•43m ago
At this point, self-hosting email is as much a practical convenience as it is a political statement. Or maybe I'm just stubborn.
throwaway67743•43m ago
I'm sure it's a good article but there is no need for it to be written by an LLM... Is everyone really this lazy now? I don't think I've read anything written by a human for at least a full month.
flyingcoder•37m ago
This seems like a load bearing issue. Would you like me to put together a plan to put human-written text in your daily routine?
throwaway67743•37m ago
Oh you.
stavros•37m ago
The need is that writing is expensive. An LLM is around a hundred times cheaper than a human, so this kind of article that doesn't provide tons of value just makes sense to write with an LLM.

I hate LLM writing, but the economics checks out.

iLoveOncall•34m ago
How about not writing the article at all then?
stavros•23m ago
Because people will read it if you write it, hence us being here.
throwaway67743•
sandebert•41m ago
Interesting topic. I wonder if the AI was given notes to base the article on, or if it was given the data and also made the full analysis itself.
kypro•38m ago
I switched to M365 as my provider a few years back as my emails kept being flagged as spam.

I've done it for decades, but I don't know much beyond the basics of email hosting tbh, however my understanding is that these days email coming from self-hosted servers carries a much higher spam/junk risk and so often automatically marked as spam.

Maybe there are ways to avoid this happening, but when a few clients all reported that they were not receiving my emails I didn't have much of a choice but to switch.

rantingdemon•19m ago
I would also be interested in self-hosting but have limited understanding of what would be required to ensure my email does not get flagged as spam.
DogRunner•38m ago
And on the other side, projects like stalwart email ( http://stalw.art/ ) and mox ( http://xmox.nl/ ) makes it so much easier to build an e-mailsystem on your server.
Scarjit•34m ago
I have deployed stalwart as my replacement for mailu and iv never had such an easy time setting up mail, i love it.
IFC_LLC•33m ago
The hardest thing in setting up your emails server is to keep your messages out of spam folders. Even if you are completely legit company that sends out ONLY human-written personal emails, you will get tagged as spam first.

I've self-hosted for about 2 months, and promptly switched to iCloud. Just because I've been spending too much time calling people and telling them to check their spam folders.

Recently our business moved to another domain. We had a guy who has spent over a month "warming up" traffic, so our new domain won't be tagged as spam by default.

VladVladikoff•32m ago
20 years of running the classic postfix + dovecot stack for about 10 business domains. I’ve recently been testing out stalwart, with just one company domain, which is nice but seems quite fragile, 4 times now it’s killed itself doing some self updates. If it wasn’t for Claude assistance I probably would have given up on it by now. It is quite feature rich though, but its spam detection is not great, too much ham flagged as spam, not enough spam flagged as spam. 2FA is a nice bonus but for some unknown reason it breaks itself every few weeks and I gotta turn it back off again. If I could get stalwart stable I would migrate all my domains to it.
raddan•28m ago
Why switch then? Need more excitement in your life?

I have been running Postfix for 22 years, from a big corporate installation to my own on a Raspberry Pi Zero. It just does its job.

A_D_E_P_T•28m ago
I wish there were a way to self-host without my emails constantly getting stuck in other people's spam folders. And it made me really paranoid about email, too -- like I'd send emails, and I'd never know if the other end received them or not, unless they replied. Without a reply, I would always wonder whether the message got a look, or disappeared without a trace.

The only way around this seems to be hosting with Google, Microsoft, or maybe Proton. Any other ideas?

the_real_cher•24m ago
I think that is the Crux of the issue.

Email spam has made self hosting untenable.

hdgvhicv•23m ago
I don’t self host, I pay zoho to do it. Over never had any suspicion my emails haven’t been received.
jml78•10m ago
It happens on zoho. I ran my business email on zoho. Multiple instances where people on Gmail had my messages go to spam. I have the same issue with proton mail.
gostsamo•27m ago
Hosting my own server with mailinabox. low traffic, but keeping their random subscriptions, newsletters and occasional single purpose address. Haven't had any issues so far.
gommm•26m ago
I've been running my own email server with exim and dovecot for 20ish years, I like the freedom it gives me but I have to say it's a significant investment. Not so much keeping things up to date but instead making sure that my emails are actually delivered. I've eventually switched to using fastmail just for sending emails and even with that, I don't get perfect delivery.
avian•25m ago
> DMARC: adopted everywhere, enforced nowhere in particular

Unfortunately this only talks about what DMARC policies are published by domains. I was hoping they will go into some analysis of how many mailboxes actually hard-enforce DMARC rules on ingress (as in, respect the DMARC policy as published by the sender's domain, p=reject or whatever else it might be)

I have been hesitant to enforce DMARC rules on my server. Partly because maintaining it was a pain (see opendmarc - maybe better with rspamd now), but also because on my test runs I saw plenty of legitimate incoming mail that simply would get rejected if I were to enforce DMARC on ingress.

I suspect big players like gmail have some kind of soft enforcement/reputation/machine learning approach to DMARC, but this is way too much work for a small time admin like me.

FriedrichN•21m ago
Self hosting is not that hard actually.

The problem lies with the big e-mail providers marking your e-mail as spam, even if you have everything configured right (MX, SPF, DKIM, DMARC, etc.) and you're not on any blacklists. They use their mysterious opaque algo to determine that your e-mail is spam and you have no idea what you could do to not get in peoples junk boxes.

sshine•17m ago
> They use their mysterious opaque algo to determine that your e-mail is spam and you have no idea what you could do to not get in peoples junk boxes.

And that’s not hard?

Running a modern mail server, a spam filter, a self-hosted webmail, and learning just enough about DNS and networking to get mail through: this is what’s not that hard.

Figuring out how to stay whitelisted, or accept ending up in people’s filters, asking them to whitelist you while your public IP gradually gains trust, is a job.

FriedrichN•11m ago
That's pretty much what I mean. Implementing the authenticity measures is very easy, making sure the e-mails get delivered to peoples inboxes without getting marked as spam is hard.

I just wish these big parties would give you a more formal way to make clear you're not a spammer.

bilekas•6m ago
Mail self hosting is not an easy process to maintain.. If you do manage to get whitelisted you need to ensure you're on top of maintaining it, let alone some larger provider like Google just deciding they don't like you. I do empathise with wanting to self host, I just always found the cost of effort to do so really didn't offer enough benefits versus a good provider like proton for example. It sucks but maybe a fight that's too far gone to win.
44m ago
I self host email and surprisingly do not receive any Spam (apart from the occasional cold calling support@ contact@ etc)
ferngodfather•31m ago
It's not about receiving spam, it's about legitimate messages you send getting filtered as spam.
raddan•2m ago
If you set up SPF/DKIM, this rarely happens. I self host and my email works just fine. I also rarely see spam.
inigyou•42m ago
Spam probably isn't as bad as you think it is. It's not the dark old days where 99% of emails are spam.

You should self-host, so you can do the experiment for yourself. You might be surprised. You can always stop self-hosting if you don't like it.

petcat•33m ago
Recent estimates show it's down closer to 50% of all emails now. Which is obviously still outrageous.
Gualdrapo•20m ago
I wish that was true for all cases. My uni email is 99.9% spam and everything comes from official accounts sending irrelevant stuff to everyone and their grandma
redeeman•42m ago
its not really difficult to filter spam off. I spend more time dealing with physical spam in my snailmailbox than my email spamfilter
throwaway67743•41m ago
That would work if most spam wasn't from the cartel. I receive single digit percentage of "spam" from randoms, 95%+ is from Gmail/Google, o365 or mailgun/whatever. Not one of them can either filter their users or actually action abuse reports.
KlutzySofa•31m ago
The reason for you only seeing spam from the larger providers is that they are filtering out everyone else.

They should also deal with the individual accounts etc, but thats the difficult problem.

throwaway67743•23m ago
I enforce strict spec and behaviour compliance, as well as policies (SPF, dkim, etc). Aside from a very small number of well known spam/abuse sources, it's largely from legitimate mail accounts on Gmail/outlook etc. or idiot msps.
RobotToaster•24m ago
Wasn't bitcoin supposedly invented to do that?

Ironic given the amount of crypto spam that exists.

nh2•6m ago
I agree Spam is the hardest. Setting up a mailserver is pretty easy today, e.g. with NixOS-simple-mailserver you can do it with a few lines and a few minutes of config in your DNS provider, and maintenance is minimal.

But I self-host email for ~20 years, and I have not managed to get rid of Spam without not also getting false positives.

I first used SpamAssistant, in later years Rspamd, but I feel like they are just not good enough. Also I find Rspamd config pretty incomprehensible.

Hosted email like also does not solve this, e.g. GMail filters way much (e.g. important company correspondence leading to orders almost being lost because they landed in our GMail spam, so I had to turn off the spam filter entirely).

32m ago
That might apply to some things, but there is little to no value in this article, so the economics are the same as the spam - cheap to spew garbage while providing no value and wasting the readers time. It's not something that should be encouraged. RIPE should know better.
ferngodfather•33m ago
> The domains didn't disappear; they moved.

I stopped reading at this point. I cannot emphasize how much I HATE this AI writing style.

mherdelight•30m ago
Are we even sure the actual stuff in the article is real? What if it's just the usual LLM hallucinations
jstummbillig•19m ago
> Is everyone really this lazy now?

Everyone should aim to be this lazy. Everyone is trying to maximize their time. This is what software has always done. It helps people be lazy in some respect, and then, so far, we have always found new stuff to do with the time we freed up.

LLMs got decent at writing, and before long they will be better at write-ups than the average human writer and we won't look back.

Of course, this is contingent on your current goal: If you want to get better at writing, you should do the writing, just like you want to do the math, if you want to learn multiplication. Writing is fine as a tool just to get information across. It needn't be more than that for everyone.

bastawhiz•12m ago
And soon, I'll be lazy and use an LLM to do the reading for me. Eventually the LLMs will train on the state of the world and decide to be lazy also, and the "writer's" LLM prompt will just be shared with the "reader": nobody actually needed all those words anyway! Maybe someday we'll get rid of the links on HN and we can just share and consume headlines.
bilekas•11m ago
Efficiency and lazyness are two very distinct things. As is quality and quantity.
mc32•11m ago
The ability for people to communicate is paramount. Without the ability to communicate there is no progress. We might as well be deaf, dumb and perhaps blind.

Delegating this task to automation serves to undermine all the masters and indeed strengthen the servants.

Short term this offload is good for people; long term it’ll lead to mental rot where people are hard pressed to put their ideas forward and give up in exasperation when they don’t have the assistance of their servants. Their ability to even make the proper requests to the servants may deteriorate enough that their existence may come to rely on the benevolence of their servants.

RobotToaster•8m ago
>LLMs got decent at writing,

Judging by people's response, that doesn't seem to be the case.

> and before long they will be better at write-ups than the average human writer and we won't look back.

I'll read articles written by them if and when that happens, but not before.

Qwen 3.8 27B is excellent, but it defaults to overthinking things

https://simonwillison.net/2026/Aug/16/qwen-38-27b/
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https://labs.ripe.net/author/artem-berezin/two-providers-a-stubborn-plateau-and-a-very-long-tail-...
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