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The same AI request emits 8.5 times more CO2 in Texas than in Sweden

https://berget.ai/en/blog/per-request-co2-press-release
58•jlundberg•1h ago

Comments

jlundberg•1h ago
Based on a newly released model for calculating this that is open sourced.
achille•7m ago
your web server is down, maybe switch to the github link in the meanwhile (you have ~ 4 minutes left)
armcat•32m ago
Great writeup! I've done some work on Codecarbon [1] in the past, it's a pretty standard tool for measuring ML/AI workload emissions, it would be awesome to have your findings contributed to that project as well.

[1] https://github.com/mlco2/codecarbon

reedf1•28m ago
We can pretend that international trade and energy price arbitrage doesn't exist to make us feel nice and happy; but the reality is a Watt spent in Sweden increases the marginal cost of energy by the same amount as a Watt spent in Texas. These things are tied together by foreign exchange, imported energy intensive goods, petroleum products and directly imported power. It's time we stop being naive about energy use.
seanmcdirmid•24m ago
Sweden is not grid connected to Texas, well, nor is also any other grid in the USA actually. Smelting was placed near cheap hydro resources (and why Boeing built planes in Seattle) for good reasons. Just replace cheap watts with clean watts.
reedf1•21m ago
Because Sweden's clean energy capacity is fixed. Which means a "clean" Watt spent on inference is taking away a "clean" Watt that would have been spent on heating or steel. Which means Sweden needs to buy energy or energy intensive goods on the global market, which raises prices, which means Texas is being paid.
p1necone•17m ago
> "Sweden's clean energy capacity is fixed"

This is a weird assumption to make. Why would you assume they wouldn't just build out more capacity as demand increases?

They certainly aren't buying electricity from Texas, this feels like a tortured argument you're just making to retroactively support whatever opinions you have on the pros or cons of clean energy.

reedf1•10m ago
> this feels like a tortured argument you're just making to retroactively support whatever opinions you have on the pros or cons of clean energy.

My opinion that reality should take precedent over feel good lies?

tormeh•2m ago
There's only so much hydro power to build out, and nuclear takes forever. Solar only works in summer that far north, and without insane batteries wind power just becomes greenwashed natgas.
IshKebab•19m ago
Yeah I don't understand why these new data centres are all in populated areas. AI isn't latency sensitive. Put them in some remote location surely?
JumpCrisscross•16m ago
> don't understand why these new data centres are all in populated areas

Power connections.

km3r•17m ago
This is why people in left wing areas need to oppose datacenters bans. Regulate them. Require green energy investments that more than offset their load. Use some of that flowing AI money for the betterment of society.
croes•15m ago
Less waste of resources is still waste of resources.

How much of the AI generated content is actually useful, how much useless, how much harmful?

YetAnotherNick•12m ago
Datacenter wouldn't stop, and there would be some country or area which allows it. Unless they regulate the entire world, we should focus on lowering CO2 globally, and that means allowing datacenter in your neighour if your energy is better.
leonidasrup•4m ago
You don't need to specifically regulate green investments for datacenter. Just introduce CO2 emission tax and the industry will find efficient ways to reduce CO2 emissions.
bob1029•15m ago
The reasoning effort knob is becoming a really important variable regarding how much impact AI models will have on energy consumption. Medium and max can differ by as much as two orders of magnitude in their token consumption. We also have to consider the amplification of compute demand that occurs by way of the tool calls themselves. Tokens are mostly a constant cost thing, but how they are interpreted can mean the difference between a 5 minute cpu bound operation and a 50uS cached database lookup. At some point, the CPU is going to become the bottleneck again.
alpineman•8m ago
And eating a single burger results in the equivalent Co2 emissions of 17,000 requests in Sweden and 2,000 requests in Texas.

Reducing/stopping meat consumption and replacing it with healthy plant-based tofu, seitan, tempeh etc has a far bigger impact (and as a bonus, living beings don't have to suffer)

mirrir•6m ago
fallacy of relative privation. this distracts from CO2 reduction generally by splitting hairs. Both are significant issues.
Gigachad•5m ago
Giving up AI would be much easier and less disruptive.
schleck8•3m ago
Most people in the West eat too much meat. Red meat in particular is a group 2 carcinogen according to the WHO, so the body isn't meant to consume a lot of it. Yet many people eat meat every day, because "It's not a complete meal without it" or "I somehow need 10 times more protein than people a millenium ago while claiming to eat like them".
schleck8•5m ago
I've seen people who hate AI instantly become defensive as soon as someone brings up the water usage for a kg of beef. It's selective outrage.

I don't like whataboutism, but this isn't whataboutism because the meat industry requires way more water per capita like you pointed out. You have to create products twice, once for feed and once to raise the cows.

wartywhoa23•6m ago
Worry not, AI people! Greenhouse gas exemptions will be made for the future of work, maths and art, the salvation of the humankind, the genie that is out of the bottle, etc, if only at the expense of taxing your and your dog's fart.
blfr•59s ago
The comment thread reminds me of The Dead Great-Grandfather Test

[Science fiction writer Bruce] Sterling was using the term specifically to describe the hairshirt green lifestyle that is driven by eco-anxieties. For hairshirt-green types, life is all about saving water, recycling, composting, reducing eco-footprints and various other behaviors marked by a kind of fearful, non-generative retreat from living. Permanent existential hibernation.

Sterling's rule of thumb for spotting acting-dead behaviors is a great one: if it's something your dead great-grandfather can do better than you, it's a case of acting dead. Your dead great-grandfather uses no water or plastic, and is actually recycling himself as we speak, not just his possessions. Try and top that.

But acting dead goes beyond hairshirt-green behaviors. While spartan frugality is a virtue, when it becomes the entire purpose of your life, there's a problem. For a portion of the dying American middle class, frugality has turned into a life purpose.

https://ribbonfarm.com/2011/12/08/acting-dead-trading-up-and...

JumpCrisscross•15m ago
> Because Sweden's clean energy capacity is fixed

By what?

You're treating electricity as a globally-tradable good. It's not.

reedf1•12m ago
It is.
p_l•8m ago
Perhaps they are mistaking Sweden with Norway (whose nearly 100% hydropower system is constrained)
shiandow•24m ago
I'm a bit confused. For one I am not sure why this must hold for something as difficult to transfer as energy, and I am not sure why it matters. Not all energy is the same, hence the title.
consp•4m ago
Why not treat both as bad instead of pointing to whataboutism to make a point?
wartywhoa23•1m ago
Could as well stop breathing to make way for the Super Intellect!

Local Wikipedia: Wikipedia, but only for things a half hour walk from you

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193•sohkamyung•8h ago•36 comments

The same AI request emits 8.5 times more CO2 in Texas than in Sweden

https://berget.ai/en/blog/per-request-co2-press-release
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