No Signs of Tech Payoff Outside the Tech Sector. Manufacturing, basic science, education, etc languished while Big Tech reaped record profits and achieved stock heights for the last 15 years.
There are too many confounders.
Even last week I had a case where, I was reviewing code that I know the dev was vibe coding, and honestly was good up to that review.
Buuuuuut, for the stuff I reviewed that day, there was some base-class inheritance use that was so ugly that my initial teams message to the dev was along the lines of 'What crack was Copilot smoking on that one'.
Turns out, they had asked some other random-ish questions in the chat they were doing their actual work in, and those questions more or less polluted the context.
Sure, I was able to guide them for how to not do that in future (i.e. keep unrelated questions around the work in question to a separate chat, etc.) but this was also a dev that is normally both very good, but also overworked semi-related to the general 'AI will save us on dev costs thing'.
I can't help but ask whether, for the even less-technical people that are told 'yeah you lost two colleagues but here is Copilot/Claude/etc' and they don't even get enough advice to have it actually increase productivity versus chasing down gremlins in the actual work.
I don't follow.
Doubtlessly Chinese manufacturing benefited tremendously from those advancements. But my point is the headline whinging about AI in America would also apply to Tech in America.
It'll probably be a couple of years before most companies even realise it's an option.
> before most companies even realize it's an option Couldn't be further from the truth
Most developers don't work building low level high performance scalable systems for a large tech firms, they are making CRUD back-ends for phone apps.
This section of the industry is definitely contracting. Even more obvious is the dev tooling part of it. Dev tooling companies are disappearing or being "bought" all over the place because what might have been a product before is now an hour or two with someone with CC.
It took decades for effects of personal computing to show up in aggregate statistics.
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productivity_paradox and https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/163298.163309
The decade ahead is going to be a very interesting one
People are, on average, too stupid to make good use of AI to the point where you can actually gain massive productivity.
The pointy haired bosses are going to do their usual approach: force people to work more, claim success, move on.
That you don't know. Nobody knows what AI is going to be capable of in 2 years. It could continue improving, or not. There's no strong evidence in any direction. You're just ignoring what doesn't fit your narrative.
when you say "Many will fall for the road to be paved", you are saying your idea is more important than human fucking lives. this is a recurring theme in every fascist regime throughout human history.
Other industries don't, so they have no way of knowing if the AI is bullshitting them outside of manual validation, which makes it more expensive and slower than doing it yourself.
That hasn’t stopped Tesla. Their self-driving cars work by connecting the car’s controls directly to a neural network.
and if they did for your system, then it's so simple that whether or not you used AI doesn't even really matter
You can see a similar history with electrification. A few industries went quickly, but then it took like a decade of little growth before the true benefits showed up. As an example, take a factory that was built around hyrdo-power like a grain mill. You can't just take an electric motor and drop it in in place of the water wheel. It doesn't fit, the wheel is outside, there isn't room between the mill and the wall, etc. Only when you completely rebuild a new mill building designed around the features and limitations of the electric motor do you see the major benefits.
Same thing here; it will be new factories and new companies that are designed from the ground up around AI and its benefits and limitations that really move the needle.
AIs don't just make code they make words, images, and sounds. Hasn't worked in those markets either.
Joke's on them, all intellectual work is modelling to some degree, and can be automated in the exact same way with the exact same mediocre results. How long until someone vibe codes a Lean for structural engineering?
That's the reason these profession is regulated. Regulation is written in blood.
This may well remain a "true communism/socialism has never been tried" situation.
1. every business unit and department was neglecting a best practice due to lack of investment in their organization. it has always been that way for decades and always will be that way because it isn't economically viable for it to be any other way. the workflow automations and agents we create act as digital workers that either do that neglected part, or let the rest of the organization do that neglected part.
2. the whole company always starts the year off with a bunch of goals, and by Q3 most of them are cancelled. now less of them are cancelled.
both factors mean that anyone just looking at "worker productivity" or "did we save money" is going to get the answer of no. everything is costing you the same, or the AI itself is costing you more. whatever contract I'm working under is definitely going to cost you more, if you don't cancel all those enterprise SaaS seats we told you to cancel.
I see a path to savings, but I don't think that's necessarily the metric to focus on. you need to look at the whole corporate structure, why are you still doing certain things, because those pressures will just make the org do more things because nobody is empowered to say "wait, maybe this is dumb"
There have been wins with the customer facing side of the business, but the development team seems to be the biggest problem right now despite the direct & obvious applicability of these tools. I know they aren't a special unicorn edge case because I was very rapidly solving their issues before they stopped handing me things that revealed the lethargy.
Within the sector where these tools definitely work, the biggest barrier to effective adoption is figuring out a way to undermine the various ideological high grounds. I have found the most effective argument to untangle this knot to be something approximating:
Challenge:
"Why should I adopt or help to implement technology that might eventually replace my job?"
Response:
"Because refusing to won't protect your job. It puts everyone's job at risk."
It doesn't matter if you protect your job (not using AI) if the entire company goes to the bottom of the ocean as a consequence. The neat thing about this is that your job is part of the set known as "The Company" and if that ceases to exist, so does your job. Good luck suing a dissolved entity for unemployment or whatever. There is enough competition in most markets to punish anyone who thinks they can win on virtue alone.
The vast majority of entire companies are going to the bottom of the ocean regardless of what individual contributors do.
Once you can replace nearly every job at a company, the company doesn't need to exist. Companies are just collections of experts, if AI replaces all the experts then it replaces the whole company.
So I've adopted the accelerationist mindset of: yes, this is absolutely going to replace my job, but it is going to replace everyone else's job too so fuck it I'll use it and we'll all go down to the bottom of the ocean together.
Robots still seem far off. Its just like war, air superiority might make the war winnable but its the boots on the ground that are needed to actually take the territory.
The other is that there is so much more value to be extracted before this bubble burst.
Not sure which I believe, objectively. Subjectively, inside of tech, it certainly feels like the former.
The incredible improvements have only been over the last 9 months or so. Business, especially disrupting entire job functions, takes much longer than that. As is typical with this type of change, it'll be slow until a tipping point, then FOMO will hit.
Why would you spend dollars on tokens today if you expect the same tokens will get you something vastly superior in a few months, or that they'll do the same job for nickels on the dollar? Do you just hate having money or what is the problem?
For a sec I thought he was talking about private equity.
This reminds me of the book The Redemption of Time. An alien society incapable of lying has no other way to understand deception than to study an actual human mind. The different ways that we are capable of thinking can be so hard to capture in an artificial system.
for 'A.I' to work for the rest of industry outside of software - you need high touch customization.
AI certainly seems to be making students much less competent.
The idea of an AI tutor that could step-by-step customize an education plan to each student and patiently apply every approach to getting the students to understand each lesson, is such an attractive vision.
Both of my kids chafed under lock step pacing of lessons, even in a school where disruptive or unmotivated students were pretty much nonexistent.
2027 is going to be very interesting. Buckle up.
AI productivity gains are coming make no mistake about it. My guess is that we'll see them within the next 5 years.
I'm seeing non-engineers use AI to send more emails, have more meetings, create more documents, and create more dashboards. So much of the busy work that happens in corporate environments was never that valuable in the first place. A firehose of busy work doesn't move any needles that matter.
It should be of zero surprise that the rush into AI has yielded limited results (if we're honest, both in and outside of tech)—you won't get a bunch of artists or creative thinkers out of a pliant, ironically agentic labor force. That's why most people say "it doesn't work": it's because they lack the skills and knowledge to use it properly (but corporations want to delude themselves into thinking they have a genie in a lamp).
The only issue is that the benefits would be more enmeshed with other gains in other industries.,
Heck, even in Software Development, the real benefits are not with mass labor elimination resulting in cost savings but with increasing available throughput. Technology if used to the fullest potential should be able to expand the proverbial pie., which is where the gains are!
That is not to say people won't try to save cost by eliminating labor due to AI., which is super shortsighted and misses the forest for the trees, but the overarching goal should be to increase the quality and quantity of deliverables, as demanded by the market.
I wonder if the argument cannot be made that it has delivered little payoff in tech as well - in terms of actual stable revenue vis-a-vis the immense capital investments, the deep loans, the circular commitments etc.
The industrial revolution produced physical goods at scale, which eventually gave regular people access to things they could not have before.
AI produces intellectual labor at scale. Regular people do not need mass-produced content in their lives: there's already too much music, too much TV, too much software that only seems to get worse year after year.
Who needs mass-produced intellectual labor? The owning class. This is the only population segment that stands to benefit from this revolution. It's the reason every tech CEO is trying to shove AI down everyone's throats. It's the reason they're resting their feet on the table while everyone below them is starting to panic about the future of their careers.
I don't believe we will see compounding acceleration of anything other than spam and enshittification in this AI-laden world. This is not technology for building futures we can barely dream of: it's a gold-plated gift to the oligarchy and a fuck-you to everyone else.
this is literally the textbook historical process across every industry ever.
"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
Admirers of this idea shortened it to, "Science progresses one funeral at a time."
1. Profit margins from the mag 7 are on an upward trend starting in 2020. This is pretty consistent with the insane topline growth had by covid and the most recent layoffs occurring over the last 6 years. To unilaterally attribute this to AI implementation is lazy.
2. Most non-tech firms are only implementing AI just now because we finally have better enterprise tooling required. We won't see the effects for another 12-24 months at least.
3. As a former management consultant, this might be the worst use of a stacked bar chart I've ever seen: https://www.apollo.com/content/dam/apolloaem/images/daily-sp...
4. I don't know how you actually isolate AI productivity gains on a macro level. It seems pretty much impossible.
This whole thing is laughable.
Right now, the most effective use case for AI is coding agents. Software development is a profit center for the tech sector, so it's not surprising that they're seeing big gains. In Corporate America, software development is part of IT which is a cost center, and the software landscape is 30+ years of bandaid-ed legacy systems, maintained by offshore contractors who submitted the lowest cost bid, so attempts to gain productivity via AI have not been as successful.
Where Corporate America has seen gains from AI in my experience is with customer support chatbots, but the customer service function overall in Corporate America is an unmitigated disaster, so the gains are hard to measure.
Beyond these two use cases, most people in Corporate America are just using ChatGPT to create slop and copy/pasting it wherever, and then goofing off in their newly freed spare time.
We need to see new AI use cases in Operations, Finance, Marketing, etc. that can handle business processes end to end before the productivity gains start showing up in the financials.
"Tech sector" is supposed to be much bigger than just 7 companies, no matter how big those 7 are.
This looks to me more like just a huge centralization of wealth.
The thing is, the failure rate was quite high --- often only 15 (sometimes fewer) lines were returned, and after a while, Microsoft imposed a limit on uploading more files, even though I was deleting the conversations immediately and quitting CoPilot and re-starting (long sessions seemed to have a progressively worse failure rate).
Since then, access to CoPilot has been removed and we're waiting on a test program to finish. Kind of curious how many tokens this was using up (and if there's a model which could be run locally which would work well and quickly enough).
For sake of comparison, consider e-commerce. As a proxy for "impact on the economy", we can use Amazon's revenue. They went public in 1997 and that year had revenue of $148M (just 0.14% of Walmart's revenue that year). By 2000, revenue was $2.76B (1.65% of Walmart). Bricks and mortar didn't start feeling anything until probably 2011, when Amazon crossed 11% of Walmart's revenue. And it wasn't until 2025 that Amazon finally surpassed Walmart.
But, if you worked in tech in the e-commerce business, things were already feeling pretty hot by 2007. And at that point in time, the e-commerce sector was still miniscule compared to traditional retail (~4%). Software is very exciting these days and the most fantastic things are happening. They will eventually percolate out to the rest of the economy. But it will take many years before everyone notices the difference.
Yeah, 100%. Even for relatively complex scenarios (i.e. over-engineered for purpose) as long as the engineer can prompt coherently and tweak it's a big increase in productivity, at least for those people.
The gap is in things like contract houses where you might see better code on code review from the people submitting but if you actually use the tools, you know that the hours billed are even more inflated than they might have been before.
the mythical man month lesson holds for CRUD apps as well. I'd be careful to equate churning out lines of code with the health of a piece of software down the road, even a relatively straight forward one.
Keep in mind in any real world software what matters is maintenance of a system, not just how many features you can add, regardless of human or machine generated code, some badly glued together codebase that's rapidly growing is going to haunt you.
Which is also why replacing sound dev tooling and with a magical prompt genie is incredibly irresponsible and short-sighted. You could cheaply produce code by outsourcing it years ago.
If you moved the goal posts any farther, they'd have traveled around the world and would be sitting at your back right now.
Yeah, it is not going to be slow. Progress compounds, everything is being built on top of fast computers and fast widespread internet connection. You are not at the beginning of the curve like you were in the 20th century when people didn't even know how to use a keyboard and we are already seeing widespread disruption in security.
Note: on an exponential, you can always say this. People will look back on today with the same "aww cute" eyes.
I expect to be surprised by specific headlines, but I don't expect "software engineer" to be any more common a job opening than "steam locomotive engineer" in 10 years time.
Conversely, I would be very surprised if the robotics startups turn out to have solved general-purpose AI models that work in the real world, both fast enough and cheap enough (currecy or joules) to be significantly labour-displacing in 10 years.
Where I'm about 50-50 on which of "AI does it" or "AI does't do it" is more surprising, is specific physics research from AI. LLMs can do a lot of hard maths, there's lots of open problems in physics due to hard maths questions. So:
Consider the Alcubierre metric. The original is impossible. Can an LLM either design something in the same broad category which is physically instantiable but still useful (e.g. "yes it's sub-light but it manages 0.01c and you weren't getting that otherwise"), or prove this is impossible when limited to matter made from normal electrons, protons, and neutrons?
but have you looked up who invented the computer? and who was funding all the first versions of the software we use? it was the US military.
The question is really about the fate of the current build out. For those of us who have extensive experience with AI, which is to say, those of us here, because we are probably the only people not only using it day in and day out but potentially using multiple sessions of it all the time, I think it's not so surprising that it isn't necessarily immediately radically transforming every industry everywhere. Even as it has rewritten the minute-by-minute process of doing my job entirely, it hasn't actually changed my job all that much at the higher level and it's hard to assign much more than a 2x or a 2.5x overall improvement to it once I account for all the Amdahl's Law issues that come up from the parts that have not been so amenable to acceleration.
And without unit testing, continuous integration testing, pull request review, the fact that the AI is building code which is itself a highly reviewable artifact rather than just doing whatever directly, and all the many many guard rails we've built up in our industry that happen to be extraordinarily amenable to use by automated systems, I still wouldn't trust AI all that much for a real task. They still bang into those guard rails a lot, and still make what I consider to be deeply suboptimal decisions far too often to take my hands off the wheel. With all the stuff we have in the programming space they are a game changer, but in a field that doesn't have anywhere near that much padding and safety nets I'd be way, way more hesitant.
I want to say it's weird to talk about such things when they are also capable of such amazing math proofs, but at the same time when you consider the numbers tossed around for how much those things have cost, I think you're seeing another space that has guard rails comparable to software engineering. By contrast to the way these AIs are working, when a human solves a comparably hard problem the human tries a few things but from the outside would seem to proceed almost directly to the solution, compared to the staggering amount of blundering about the AIs do before arriving at their solutions. Now, in terms of the final results, yeah, they got there and I won't deny that. I'm just saying that in fields where the acceptance criteria are nowhere near as sharp as math or software, they're operating at a significant disadvantage still.
I don't think that translates well for other fields at all. You can throw an engineer or an MBA-brained exec at a business problem all you want but until they start using the products, they're not going to be effective at guiding its development.
The biggest paradigm shift has been representing models as humans, and I don’t think that’ll fade. I highly expect the AI Model T Ford will be a generalized assistant that actually works. Likely developed by OpenAI or Anthropic. And likely 5 years from now or more.
The first requires a fundamental shift in not only how you work but expensive and complex infrastructure changes from the company itself just to make it possible (the first Mac for example would cost about $7000 per person in today’s money and would be outdated in maybe a year or two), an office building of The latter requires asking a subscription service to do a task for you on basically any computer connected to the internet.
Claude subscriptions help, but only if I come in with the expertise to build the entire system around the model and I don’t mind the whole thing grinding to a halt when my session limit is saturated. Anyone selling the system off the shelf is going to be charging API rates. Computers were cheap in comparison.
Perhaps they’re all on the $20/m plan which is useless?
seriously though: nothing will stop the sky from being blue, anytime soon. How I know this? Because we don't constantly talk about how the sky will always be blue. If you got the goods, you don't need the sales pitch.
Very possibly on the way but so less uptake than software engineering for sure.
AI could probably write decently if every scraped book had all the revisions to create it embedded within or art had every brush stroke documented. As it stands programming is the first to be trained. The rest will take some more time.
Software creation tools have been worked on for decades to keep fallible human coders out of trouble as much as possible. Starting with compilers that enforce or at least encourage coding style humans can understand. Compilers embody formal definitions of language syntax. Lint and other static analysis technologies contribute by identifying problematic patterns in code. Leak detectors identify memory management problems. Profilers identify performance problems.
Few other endeavors have this much tooling that serendipitously happens to help help LLM-based agents be more useful and less error prone.
A lot of discussion around AI is very high-level and abstract. It helps to dig in and identify the characteristics that actually make a domain more or less amenable to being boosted by AI.
This morning, I was talking to a friend of mine, who is a marketing (not tech) guy, and he was gushing about LLMs.
He loves being able to just dump in a bucket of seemingly unrelated data, and getting actionable BI from it.
I think we're in for a wild ride. Fasten your seat belt, and keep your hands inside the vehicle...
* what he perceives to be actionable BI.
We got a new a CNC machine and everyone is carving away marveling at how easily it chips away at metal when the result is a jagged mess.
Kidding of course. It could be that he's an expert in his domain and can quickly ascertain whether the results are quality. It may also save a lot of time and be the best modern heuristic process.
I certainly will never need to write code anymore, and I can judge the output of these agentic processes. Same thing.
But those are the kinds of estimates that I can eyeball and be more than 80% certain they are plausible. That won't cut it in a lot of domains.
Now, Excel also makes mistakes while trying to get clever - remember the biologists who had to rename several genes to prevent Excel treating them as dates - but it's also a ubiquitous business tool. And you can combine them. But equally Excel hasn't replaced every white collar job.
This was a job to manually collate financial reports into aggregated sums to sent up the hierarchy to the next level up.
This is now a trivial BI query and doesn’t require manual processing by humans.
A bigger shift is that now I only see CEOs or at most CxOs with secretaries. Mobile phones and Outlook calendars have largely wiped out that profession.
And you can introduce people to products they didn’t know existed and now want, as opposed to showing them things they don’t need.
If companies can better understand their customers so they can give me products that better fit my needs, or inform me of products I couldn't have known about otherwise, that's a win for everyone.
It's like Software, its value is to be a complement and/or an abstraction of existing businesses. All of that sits on the very basics of the essence of civilization, which is how much things we can get off the soil and what how quickly and effective we can transform it.
Not to be anti-tech, but every new advancement, no matter how next-level, has to sell more of the same goods and services people have been using since the dawn of civilization, and those goods and services need to solve the mundane problems people have been getting since millenia.
Or the pretty obvious third possibility: The tech sector is the part selling the LLMs. They're not digging up more gold with their cool shovel technology, they are selling the shovels.
The PPTs and emails are just means to an end. But at least you're able to sound all cool and edgy on the internet.
If you provide best models with all the data and context an average white collar worker has to perform their job, in most cases they will do just fine. But in real world that context is often scattered over multiple systems, or sometimes exists only in people's heads. I believe that's the main bottleneck for adoption now.
Like... other fields exist, this is incredibly myopic. What is specific to software is it is all language based, and the people making the tools happen to be familiar with it so they know how to train it, but that's about it.
those who did are rather convinced it's over, for juniors at least.
hey are amazing tools, but every time I see a task that LLMs helped me complete in 30% less time, I see 5 more tasks that took me 30-50% longer to complete because of errors, lies, mistakes, hallucinations, context limits.
Do not tell me I'm holding it wrong.
Artists were already starving. The more physical trades are…physical not language so a plumber still plums. Maybe now they ask gemini instead of google tho.
Areas related most to…language are the most impact by large language models? The one that i think is just as impacted is education because it is also almost all language driven.
I see zero sign of any of the new mills coming around. Steel, crops, farming, none of it has changed and what little has is from…the software side or…language.
The SV world really over indexes on how much software can do.
I'm interested in what will happen with factories, why couldn't robots do all the work? Well amybe not ALL the work but most of it.
as is translating text, deepl/google where okaisch, llm's are on another level
Ive been trying to figure out some persistent si joint pain and my chart is full of me passing or failed tests nobody performed, observations nobody made and diagnosis that no doctor confirmed.
Its just so much wrongness, ive tried getting it corrected a few times when it really matters but its just so much wrong crap
It's very hard to improve something that you don't understand yourself. All the tiny decisions you make as you create a product are informed by the experience you have.
So it's seems obvious to me that a product created by software engineers would be better at software engineering. A programmer knows what a programmer needs.
To improve another industry successfully, you would really need people from that industry to be involved in a deep level in the design of the product.
Your chosen example is rather more fitting for the opposite case. Dropping an electric motor is pretty easy, you just attach it to the other side of the axle. But there is really no point in doing that. The sole benefit for that mill, will be that there is the cheap power from the water. It's also the sole reason for the current position of the mill, for the electric motor, you hence need to add long cables first. The size and operation mode of the mill is also not fit at all for the electric age. There is really no point, you are better of just building a new mill in a completely different location.
But you can do that independently of the old mill, since there is hardly any capital to be taken from the old to the new mill, short of maybe the office supply. So you just build a new mill, completely independently. But there is also no reason to decommission the old at the same time, the only reason is to shut it down when is no longer economically viable. But that also might be at a different point in time than building the new mill.
Is there even any actual basis to walk this back at all anymore? It kinda seems like its a done deal and this is the outcome.
What a grim outlook.
toomuchtodo•1h ago
Only 13% of companies see real returns from AI, survey finds - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50207881 - October 2026
FrustratedMonky•1h ago
is this 13% of leprechauns become elves?