I don't think this is totally the case! College costs continue to grow (well exceeding already high inflation), and the most recent way I have seen the value was framing it not around academics (or even job readiness, which is still not what college is about), but "building social skills" [1]. The college referenced in the piece is 40-70k/y depending on your status; fewer and fewer young people see taking out 100k+ of debt, 4+ years to "build social skills" as a worthwhile endeavor.
Asians are notably missing from that Gallup poll, I suspect the decline will not be so severe.
As a parent, most of my time that I spend thinking about money is thinking about how to pay for college. It is the second largest purchase im going to make next to my house, and it is the financial decision that sucks up the most thought.
If my kids have a 1/3 chance of interacting with someone that doesn’t think college is worth it, then that impacts how I think about whether to orient the next 20 years of savings around saving for my kids college.
If that person interacting with my kids is their boss, or person tasked with hiring them, then this _greatly_ impacts my decision to pay my kids’ college.
Note: I don’t mean to imply “I’m deciding between whether my kids have a dedicated time period where they live on their own and just study”. I’m specifically talking about paying for an education experience that will result in a credential (a degree).
Maybe I’m greatly impacted by Bryan Caplan’s “The Case Against Education” but some part of me believes the main value of a college education is that other people think a college education is valuable.
This seems to be getting less important in my lifetime. It’s hard to tell where the general sentiment is gonna be 20 years from now.
:(
Silicon Valley dropouts and well connected wealthy people make college educated people look like fools. The Feds are trying to end the Dept of Education while boosting the Big Tech AI companies.
The real solution should be to make college education as free as possible instead of spending money on forever wars and $488B on DHS and the cowards who work for them.
I find US schools leaning too far left as much as being communism.
I was indeed far left, but as I started reading more books, and wearing engineering hats, I started doing tradeoffs.
Is school really trying to drag me down so that I can move up the ladder?
US school system does not even help you any more with bringing up questions, and questioning current system.
At this point, colleges are useless not only because political biases, but also due to AIs.
I am super enquisitive person, and AIs help me get started faster (on learning new subjects) than Google search ever have
Prices are up substantially. Grade inflation is out of control, demonstrating that people are paying for the credential more than the education. Masters degrees have become a way for international students to purchase a visa. No one is learning anything.
I don't understand how we can have this conversation when the cost and quality of the product is so, so incredibly varied.
Some people loop in room and board with college costs, but you need to live somewhere even if you aren't in college. The two decisions aren't intrinsically intertwined. Being enrolled in a college might give you some options you wouldn't have otherwise, but if it's not a superior option to what you already have then you shouldn't take it. In other words college 'room and board' cost should either be ignored because it's the same price you'd pay elsewhere or it should be a net benefit if it's a subsidized, multi-tenant solution.
Meanwhile other's go to colleges that cost $10k a year for tuition and fee's, other's go to ones that run $40k+ per year. One college might focus on education and career prep/placement, another highlights their athletic teams and greek life parties.
One college might be worth it, another might not.
But many failed to see that this premise would result in one way, which is actually what's happening right now: Growing outsourcing (especially observable in SWE due to its nature) purely driven by market competitiveness (inevitable dynamics of neo-liberalism) and hype surrounding it (leaving no room for other players in the game to choose any other way) which can no longer be sustained through traditionally accepted way of hiring new people who can master new inventions. Although, I highly doubt this is also sustainable.
Eventually, it was well expected for people to stop believing in a system which offers very little foreseeable success of accomplishment and thus, doing manual/repetitive labor is far more preferable for people.
1) is the dilution of the “college” degree in terms of quality - an online degree does not generate the same outcomes as from a highly selective institution.
2) value for money for a college degree keeps declining (unless you get it for free) - tuitions have gone up astronomically and colleges have spent lavishly on administrators, student housing and sports complexes, all without improving or changing the core product for which they are charging (education).
3) too many / the wrong people are going to college - just look at the universities that will basically take anyone, less than a third graduate, and they borrow / are in debt at graduation, and they have starting salaries that no better than highschool grads (say USC - Aiken)
4) students pursuing expensive degrees for jobs that do not pay / low ROI (we need techers and social workers but spending $200k-$400k to become a social worker that pays $45k/yr doesn’t seem to be the winning proposition).
5) if you’re somewhat mechanically minded, are willing to travel and work outside, and can pass a background check / drug screen you can earn $75k/yr inside of two years working a blue collar job.
Given these elements - it seems unsurprising that more and more people don’t see college as the answer.
Obviously everyone's situation will be different. But now having been in the software engineering realm for many years, the level of maturity and execution I see in college graduates is deeply concerning. I generally outperform not necessarily because I'm smarter, but mostly because I just have strong discipline, communication, and conflict resolution skills gained from years in the military.
A more rational society would acknowledge that higher education is a good thing, and therefore try to make it affordable, not try to undermine it entirely.
I really don’t get what articles like this one are proposing. Instead of having an institution like Berkeley, we ought to just give students some YouTube videos?
Like I said, it’s very often just anti-intellectualism and culture war nonsense.
Attending college as a student was always partly about status and once the standards of an institution drops so does the signal that comes from holding a degree. It is only natural that people will see college as less worthy of an investment.
Why should I learn Stoke's Theorem? Why should I learn Nietzsche? Questions you can't answer until you learn them, and questions that compete with "how will I find a job" and "how will I find a girlfriend".
The problem is, if you don't learn how to answer such questions, you will not know that such questions exist. You will find a job and a partner, and think you never needed to contemplate any of the things you didn't think about.
College weeded out those who couldn't cut it.
Then we decided everyone needs to go to college, and that society would blindly place a college tuition bet on each person.
Now everyone is going to college, and with risk assessment thrown to the wind (a 17 year old), costs have exploded. Knowing that the debt is so intense, and that it is not dischargable (society hedged their blind bets here), college has kind of stopped it's weeding out and turned more into a pay-to-win enterprise. Legions of kids without the chops are just getting shuffled through to that magic degree so they can have a shot at paying off their debt, and hey, employers just want to see that degree to unlock those white collar salaries.
But what's slowly been happening is employers feeling like they are getting had, and people with degrees are coming in the door and leaving you totally bewildered how the hell they ever finished a degree. So the requirements are loosening and scrutiny to get in is tightening.
TL;DR: The degree market has been diluting itself in an attempt to alleviate the insane cost of a degree. Jobs are noticing degrees are meaning less.
[0] Professional-managerial class, since everyone hates acronyms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional%E2%80%93manageria...
I more meant the top 10% of american wealth. This includes the upper part of the PMC.
No, my family wasn't wealthy.
> Do you wish they did if they didn't?
No, holding down a job is part of being an adult. I'm 38, I paid my way through college working full time. I graduated in 3.5 years with credits from HS and winter+summer classes. What made me stand out from other applicants when applying for new jobs in 2009, was that I had experience working and they had no 'real world' experience.
> You cannot simply calculate hard ROI on a life experience.
College is still and always an option for people. Stony Brook University is an excellent choice, runs around $10k a year which is easily afforded making $20+ an hour for entry level work on Long Island. Yes, you live at home with your parents, and I'm assuming your relationship is strong enough to let you be independent otherwise they wouldn't pay for your college anyway, while commuting to college because college isn't expensive, housing is.
But if you don't go to college then you get a life experience that those who did go to college didn't get. No one is missing out on a 'life experience', you are choosing to have a different one. Or maybe it's better said that you don't get to have all of the possible life experiences, and being in a dorm on a college isn't inherently superior to others.
State taxpayer funded universities are not that expensive. I figure if my kid is worthy and lucky enough, they will get a scholarship to the elite universities, or they can go to the state taxpayer funded ones for less.
If the state ones get too expensive, there is community college and or just starting an apprentice trade job.
Many people believe college is not worth it for everyone, but believe a college degree is important for the job they’re hiring for.
This statistic also includes people who think college is too expensive for what it delivers, but that the value of a college degree is still nonzero.
There is yet another level of people who are frustrated with how academically weak and unchallenging common colleges have become, or how many students are going to 4-year degree programs to study topics with no job applicability. The answers would change completely if you asked people if a history degree from a $60K per year private college was worth it, compared to a Computer Science degree from Stanford. The question “is college worth it” is too generic to mean anything now that it could mean anything from a $200K piece of paper without real job skills, or a golden ticket into the recruiting funnel at FAANG.
This creates the discrepancy between polls like this and actual revealed hiring preferences. Many will tell you they don’t think college is worth it but will prefer applicants will college degrees.
There's also the fact that if everybody has a degree, it ceases to be a differentiator. Over the years, the best and worst colleagues I've ever had have had degrees (or more) from very prestigious schools even. Some of them just couldn't move on from academic thinking, because that's what they pushed themselves for their whole lives.
What are you basing this on? Has the ratio of available college intake to size of the potential student population (say ages 18-26) that has declined year over year?
But there are other more important (imho) values.
First, it is an excellent opportunity for personal worth. Socially: change of social group, freedom to explore, independence without much responsibility. Intellectually: mastering an advanced topic, in a program less directed than previous education, geared toward people with some demonstrated skill/affinity, meaning more depth. Also, no teacher or parent asking for grades, meaning more responsibility over own learning and organization.
It's a time for exploration. As it's said in classical AI, too much exploitation and not enough exploration means suboptimal solutions.
But also, higher education provides a resource for society. People with niche knowledge, expertise in a variety of topics, means a society is more resilient to disruption, and also more likely to innovate.
University is also a place for intellectuality and individuality, values very important to sustain a democracy, since democracy's main enemy is the inside enemy, in the form of ignorance and gullibilty.
Of course, to me all this means higher education is mostly a public service and therefore should be mostly taxpayer funded, but again, I'm from Europe :)
Quite opposite, "exploring" is a good way to get reported and punished, for harmless consensual activity. All universities are now basically corporations with strict rules, code of conduct and HR department. You should be professional and treat your "coworkers" correctly, or else you get reported!
Outside of uni, go wild! Nobody cares!
The case for a college education as a product has become less and less convincing as the job market value of credentials has dropped and costs have risen.
I would not assume college in its current form is going to be a thing 20 years from now, except - possibly - as a legacy finishing school for the extremely rich.
Everyone else is going to be scrabbling for income in an economy where a lot of what used to be white collar work is done by AI, and a lot of what used to be blue collar work is done by robots.
The critical skills will be creative independence, improvisation, and systems thinking - the ability to hack the social and financial economy to invent paid work instead of applying for it.
It doesn't matter what people think, the question is whether the jobs your kids want to do require a degree or no. Let say they want to be a doctor or a lawyer college, then college education is needed. Even programming which is a field with a lot of self-taught people and hobbyists, professionals without a college degree are the exception.
College should be for becoming educated. Not for getting a job.
If paying huge amounts of money isn’t worth it to you to be educated, fine. But that doesn’t mean the education is bad, just that it’s not worth it from a financial perspective.
I studied philosophy and art, even though I could have studied something more “practical” (a dubious distinction that I think is less and less accurate in the dynamic modern economy, but that’s a separate discussion.) I don’t regret it for a second, and if my future kids want to study art and philosophy I’ll encourage them to and pay for it the best I can by then.
https://graphics.wsj.com/marketwatch/college-debt-now-and-th...
I have a child graduating high school right now. As a developer in the US, this means no child of mine is getting need based scholarships. So the question becomes whether it really makes sense to go to any of said expensive colleges vs handing the child 200k+ and going to a worse school where he gets merit scholarships worth 6 figures over the course of his stay.
When you put those kinds of prices out there, do not be surprised if people start to think it's all a ripoff.
Let’s imagine a Michelin star restaurant that has rave reviews. Everyone loves it. It’s affordable, too, which helps its popularity.
But over time, the restaurant increases its prices. The food remains exactly the same: absolutely delicious. But now the prices are 10x what they were before. And so naturally the discussion becomes: “I’m sure it’s good, but is it worth the cost?”
A rational response to higher education would be similar. Except that’s not how most people, or at least media articles, frame it. Instead of saying “the food is good but it’s not worth the cost,” they just deny that it is delicious in the first place. It’s a very particular kind of short-sightedness that has its roots in the anti-intellectual cultural history of America.
collabs•54m ago