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$2.5T has been wiped from US stocks

https://finlaws.substack.com/p/25t-has-been-wiped-from-us-stocks
86•madihaa•1h ago

Comments

bell-cot•1h ago
Similar to the old saw about you owning the bank $10 thousand vs. $10 billion, the "value" of stocks does not scale.
novaRom•1h ago
Selling AI stocks before year-end makes sense, right? New Congress, new House take over in January. Cost of living so tax hikes next year. Better to lock in gains now than pay more later? Besides cash is now bringing more than 4% pa
hoppp•1h ago
End year sales are common. Black friday, Christmas whatever. People spend and taking profit feels good.
ThunderSizzle•43m ago
I expect Democrats to be as pro big business as they always have been - as long as they are "regulated" to be in sync with Democrats desires.

They'll be anti data centers until they are no longer the opposition party. Then suddenly both Republicans and Democrats will change while MAGA/America First and woke 2.0/socialists sides won't have changed at all.

Isn't the political party system great!

cpursley•20m ago
Datacenters of Democracy, aka USAIDS 2.0.
triceratops•41m ago
> Cost of living so tax hikes next year. Better to lock in gains now than pay more later?

Deliberately pay capital gains tax now on the off-chance taxes go up next year? You do you my friend.

hn_submit•1h ago
People the AIpocalypse is real!! Brace yourselves for a $10 Trillion wipeout.

Anthropic and OpenAI will disintegrate and vanish in the mist.

That's all folks!!!

drivebyhooting•1h ago
I hope not. I need my subsidized subscription and I’m not satisfied with argon
yread•1h ago
I'm already pushing my bathtub out so that I can catch all the GPUs that will soon start raining down from the clouds
throwaway384034•53m ago
Looks like the party is over, now for the hangover.
amelius•53m ago
Can I have my DRAM now?
silverFork•41m ago
LOL
dude250711•5m ago
Of course! As a paid service that is.
SwellJoe•50m ago
As usual, I was right about the market but way too early. I sold all of my AI-exposed stocks last year, as I knew the investment going into it couldn't be recouped in a reasonable time. If I'd held longer, I'd be up about 2x on those shares even if I'd only sold in a panic yesterday.

But, it also means I can probably reinvest in some of those stocks now that a correction is in progress. There are some excellent tech companies with strong leadership and strong growth (e.g. ARM) that have been too expensive for a long time; still too expensive, but getting closer to reasonable.

cgeier•44m ago
Being early means you were not right, it‘s all about the timing.
curiousllama•39m ago
I know they'd be down 50%! I just didn't know they'd be up 500% before that.
gopher2000•28m ago
"I thought they'd be down 50% and they're up 450% so I was mostly right"
SwellJoe•27m ago
It's about timing and direction. Timing doesn't matter if it's not a well-run business.

Most of my holdings with AI exposure were and are well-run businesses; they were when I bought them, when I sold them, and throughout the AI-inspired rise. The problem was I didn't believe there was sufficient market opportunity to justify the stratospheric rise, and I think the market has now begun to catch up to that thinking. The market has begun to agree with the premise I based my decision to sell on.

I suspect the decline will continue and I will be able to buy back into at least some of the stocks I sold at a price better than what I sold them for.

So, yes, my post was to say I am frequently wrong on timing, even if the premise I based a decision on turns out to be true. I don't understand people, but I understand tech.

schnuri•48m ago
I always find these market cap numbers misleading. The US stock market isn't "worth" $2.5T less. If you multiply the marginal share price by the total number of shares, you get a number that's $2.5T lower. That is something different. E.g., if you tried to sell all Nvidia shares at once, you'd never get anywhere near ~$4.5T (just as buying them all would cost far more).
curiousllama•38m ago
2.5T sounds impressive, but less impressive next to 82T total market cap
adam_arthur•24m ago
What something's worth is what somebody is willing to pay for it.

And conventionally, we use the marginal buyer's bid as the measuring stick for public companies. e.g. the share price

Of course, the intrinsic value based on currently known data/fundamentals is unchanged.

But many market valuations are disconnected from that to begin with. Loans, options, warrants, many things are tied to the market cap/share price of a company. E.g. what is the LTV ratio when lending? What are my RSUs worth?

smallmancontrov•11m ago
> What something's worth is what somebody is willing to pay for it.

This is completely and definitionally true in the context of trading, but keep this definition on a leash because if you apply it outside a purely financial context it tends to smuggle wealth-weighted objectives into your thinking, and regardless of whether or not you think that's moral you probably want to be aware of it. Example: feeding orphans is zero "value" because they can't pay you but merging the banks into a mega-bank to raise fees and collect bailouts has extreme "value" because it can make a bunch of obscenely rich shareholders even more obscenely rich.

Due to this mismatch I keep both definitions in my pocket: Wealth Weighted Value for finance, People Weighted Value for more colloquial settings or moral analysis.

curiousllama•41m ago
This is definitely scary, but not the end of the world (yet).

The S&P500 is still up ~7% YTD, and 5y CAGR of 9.4% before dividends, in line with historical norms.

This is primarily a decline in tech: week over week, the S&P is -4.5% (SPX), but the S&P excluding tech is +0.1% (SPXT).

Right now, this looks like speculation that tech will reduce capex after Q4 earnings (Nvidia, Micron, Sandisk, AMD all down >2x vs the S&P). But it'll take time to tell; most just announced Q3 a week ago.

All this to say: expect volatility, but no need to panic.*

*(Unless you're in TQQQ. Then panic.)

staticman2•35m ago
It's not scary at all unless you think stocks are a riskless asset expected to always go up and bonds and bank accounts are for suckers.
lachlanj•22m ago
Google got punished in the last few days for too much Capex. So what does the market want, less capex or more capex?
outside1234•15m ago
Less Capex, More Profit
masfuerte•21m ago
In case anyone else was wondering:

TQQQ is the only ETF (Exchange-traded Fund) that targets 3x the daily returns of the Nasdaq-100 Index.

Ouch!

foolswisdom•38m ago
For all the federal election related takes, remember that

1. Market price changes are changes from what was expected before compared to what is expected now. And not even only in regards to the asset itself, but with respect to comparative change in other assets as well. 2. conventional wisdom when the branches of government are divided, less change comes from the government, so you can expect that your expectations for the future will remain stable, and that confidence reduces risk aversion, resulting in higher pricing.

Therefore, the market going down cannot be attributed purely to a question of who is in charge, because the democrats can't pass anything unless they get a nice number of Republicans on their (possible I suppose, but I don't think anyone is expecting that right now). But it could be attributed to expectations of what Republicans would do vs now that they can't.

Besides, it's basically impossible (or at least for layman, who knows if you're a market maker?) to accurately attribute a day's market behavior to any event, with a compelling causal explanation (sometimes your attribution could also be explained to have the opposite effect than the one you're trying to explain) and not ignoring alternate possible explanations.

It's kinda annoying when even otherwise serious people invoke the market movement of a day as an meaningful event that can be explained (notwithstanding that by tomorrow the effect might have reversed). But unfortunately business news like CNBC promotes that kind of thinking.

foolswisdom•37m ago
It's still quite possible that all the non federal items on the ballot (lots of anti data center referendums, lots of democrat politicians in state office) matter quite a bit.
neuroelectron•6m ago
Whaaaat? No. It's an AI correction. See, AI correction. You don't see that? Why would you think the recent election is a factor?
yojo
shevy-java•33m ago
They are pillaging.

It will be a long time required here, investigating all corruption that has been happening.

Inflation increase should be viewed as a mafia in charge of a country.

vladmk•31m ago
2.5 Trillion unfortunately is nothing compared to the debt we're in smh
dudefeliciano•28m ago
Interesting how the coverage of midterm elections was flagged with many users talking about how politics are not a hacker worthy topic but this somehow seems to be
huqedato•28m ago
Sell the dip! I'm buying cheap.
dude250711•5m ago
What next? Bubble prophets start actually short-selling?
hacker_9•27m ago
April 2025, nasdaq enters bear territory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43587479

It's interesting reading the panic then in the comments, and yet now the nasdaq is up 65% from those lows, even with today's drop.

jrflo•26m ago
Sounds scary until you realize that this happens about once per year on average. If this happens again tomorrow and a few more times in the few couple weeks that would be bad, but as of now it's notable but not a huge deal.
zer00eyz•20m ago
Not really - today was a rare and large sell off - last time that was close was 2020 - for the pandemic.

The question one should ask is how far down does it go and if history is any indicator it's not gonna be up from here before the new year (and likely down a bunch more). There is a LOT of over valued stocks still to be cleared out - I suspect the cut is gonna be a lot deeper. The history on this is 2018 for Trumps last midterm and a pending rate hike. Sticky oil prices are gonna drive inflation and the fed raise's the market suffers.

ChrisArchitect•23m ago
Related:

Nasdaq plummets 4% into correction territory

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50381623

silverFork•22m ago
Everybody knew it was coming soon.. Some were waiting for anthropic to IPO first. Markets could not wait because of public sentiment.
i_love_retros•19m ago
America desperately needs January to come around fast. We need some level headed sensible people running the country. We need to elect more socialists to knock these tech companies down hard. Power to the people and fuck all this AI shit.
draxen•17m ago
Americans are seeing this through a political lens but a generational lens is more accurate.

American zillennials are going to burn down the American financial system. J.D. Vance and Mamdani are to the left of Danish SocDems on key economic and trade issues.

European pension funds and sovereign wealth funds should pull out of the US immediately.

donohoe•15m ago
Relax. This happens 2-3'ish times a year. Remember last April when Trump announced tariffs.
outside1234•14m ago
Don't worry, tomorrow will be worse
MSM•14m ago
There's a lot of conjecture about how the midterms have caused the drop today but I can't help but think it may just be a convenient coincidence. Yesterday was one of the largest bumps of the year and by yesterday it was already known that Democrats were taking control.

Is this just the start of the fall that many people have been predicting for months? Did something materially change in the Democrats' stances or policies since yesterday? Or is something else unwinding entirely?

CoolestBeans•9m ago
In fact the Wednesday bump could have precipitated today's correction as traders looking for a nice sale price window found one.

I would put this as part of the larger crunch in the AI trade that started just before earnings season as people digest what margin compression in traditional revenues for the big tech companies means going forward. Just with bigger swings because of the election.

pjdemers•12m ago
Inflation. When inflation is high, people want change. The democrats won because voters rejected inflation. (Which is the same reason Trump won in 2024, BTW, inflation was high, so voters wanted change). Anyway, if the democrats want to keep power in 2028, they have to deal with inflation, and deal with it hard and fast. That means (much) higher interest rates, lower government spending, and, possibly, tax increases. All of these make stocks go down.
aidenn0•11m ago
Love how headlines use absolute numbers when the percentage is small.
CodeCompost•11m ago
Yeah, yeah, that’s cool and all, but all I want to know is whether I can get a video card at normal prices.
bloggie•10m ago
If this is related to the election why is it happening today? Weren’t the results called on Tuesday night?
u1hcw9nx•7m ago
Last time this big wipe happened was just 19 months ago.
hagbard_c•39m ago
Yes, well, remember the dot-com boom/bust cycle? Lots of people lost a lot of money then but not all of those stocks ended up becoming worthless. Some held on to what they had and made a fortune once the internet-hype was over and the internet-era began. The same could happen with some - but certainly not all - of these 'AI-exposed' stocks. Once the 'AI' hype is over the 'AI era' will probably begin, especially if the dearth of RAM and matrix processing capacity is solved somehow.
SwellJoe•24m ago
That was the first time I was right but early. I sold out well before the peak to start a business with the money. I made money, roughly tripling my investment, but lots of folks made more money (and lots of folks lost a lot of money). In this case, I sold at a profit, but I could have made a bigger profit by being more slow to respond to my understanding of the market.
tjwebbnorfolk•21m ago
Tell me the difference between early and wrong
smallmancontrov•24m ago
> if you tried to sell all Nvidia shares at once

That is something different: liquidation value. Market cap tells you the sum total of the numbers next to this ticker symbol in everyone's brokerage account. It tells you the collective expectations about future returns and also the wealth effect that people feel based on their ability to individually obtain cash for shares.

It is true that neither of those things is liquidation value, but also liquidation value is neither of those things. If you expect a liquidation scenario, sure, use liquidation value. If you don't expect a liquidation scenario but want to measure collective expectations of and confidence in a stock, use market cap.

hacker_9•22m ago
I agree, its such a pet peeve of mine these sensationalist headlines. The price gets bid up, majority of shares were mostly bought at cheaper prices, but when there's a drop it's still 'new price x existing quantity' which means we lost X trillions.. Yet it never existed in the first place!
stinkbeetle•20m ago
That's basically the same as anything that could be bought and sold though. Your house is worth what you could sell it for tomorrow, not an impossibly unlikely tomorrow in which all house owners decided to also sell. I don't even know how or why you would try to value according to some crazy scenario like that, but it would be much more misleading IMO.

Everything is valued in prevailing conditions. Conditions change, and value changes.

danielmarkbruce•18m ago
People in finance have largely (and correctly) agreed that the marginal buyer and seller represent the best guess for the value of the business with very few exceptions. There are various flaws with this, but you won't come up with a better method, I can guarantee it.
ghshephard•18m ago
On the flip side - if you wanted to buy all of NVIDIA shares - you would have to pay more than $4.5T - likely 20-25% premium. So this cuts both ways.

The peer-comments about the market cap being representative of the expected value, or present-value of cash-flows with some discount / risk adjustment are on point. (which implies that the change in market cap might be a change in cash-flows, change in discount (typically FedRate) or risk)

•
22m ago
State government leadership did change in unexpected ways, and they do get to pass laws. See: Texas
foolswisdom•16m ago
Yes. I actually hadn't read the article before commenting because initially the link was to the Reddit thread. The data center buildout slowing, with Texas (among others) blocking otherwise expected to be built data centers is probably a significant justification for re-evaluating the business.
mgh2•18m ago
Wait for 40% downside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfcDQ7JVnzQ

Nvidia can be down to 3-3.5T market cap from 5-5.7T heights

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