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Ask HN: Why don't form-fitting Faraday iPhone cases exist?

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Open in hackernews

Ask HN: Why don't form-fitting Faraday iPhone cases exist?

14•par_12•2d ago
I've been researching privacy tech and noticed something odd:

Camera slider cases exist (Spy-Fy, etc.) - they block physical camera access but offer no signal protection.

Faraday bags exist (SLNT, Mission Darkness, etc.) - they block all RF signals but you have to remove your phone from its case and put it in a pouch.

But nobody makes a form-fitting iPhone case that integrates both - a case you leave on your phone with a deployable Faraday shield you can toggle on/off without removing the device.

I spent some time doing market research and built out a full concept deck I'd be happy to share. The competitive gap seems real: - Current privacy case market: $30-40 camera sliders - Current Faraday bag market: $60-100 pouches - Integrated dual-mode case: Would sit at $149-249

The use case seems obvious: people who want on-demand full privacy (cameras + signals) without the friction of removing their phone from a case and putting it in a bag.

So my question for the HN community:

Why doesn't this exist?

Is it: - Engineering impossible? (Can't get proper RF seal with a deployable mechanism?) - Market too niche? (Demand overlap between camera privacy and signal blocking too small?) - Someone tried and failed? - Legal/regulatory issues? - I'm just missing something obvious?

I'm not looking to build this (no hardware experience), just genuinely curious why this white space exists.

Happy to share the full concept deck and market analysis if anyone's interested in tearing it apart.

Thanks!

Comments

john01dav•32m ago
I'm no EM expert, but is it possible to have a transparent Faraday cage material that lets a capacitive touch screen register touches and be seen without any leak of radiation/data? As I understand it a big conductive finger crossing a Faraday cage breaks it quite completely, but I'm not certain of this.
addaon•9m ago
Probably? Transparent -- ITO on glass is the usual answer. You can deposit the ITO in patterns rather than as a continuous layer; and a conductive layer works as a faraday cage as long as the gaps are significantly smaller than the relevant wavelength (so ~mm for mmWave). So a ~500 µm grid could be laid down on glass in front of the screen, and conductively joined to a continuously conductive layer surrounding the back of the phone. The question, then, is whether the change in capacitance from a finger is observable by the touch screen through such a mesh... my intuition is that it would be, but would have to either model it or test it to find out. (Could test with just a stainless steel mesh from the hardware store.)

But none of this helps with the "toggle-able" part of the requirements…

stackghost•31m ago
The Faraday effect can't really be toggled except by physically compromising the enclosure, i.e. opening the Faraday cage/pouch and removing the device. Your "Faraday case" wouldn't be meaningfully more convenient than a pouch or other enclosure.
Enginerrrd•29m ago
I think that the engineering is very challenging and the market for this is nonexistent.

First, anyone truly concerned about this for actual use cases just isn’t going to bring their phone with them at sensitive times. Especially after the infamous chip bag Italian meta data incident.

Second, it’s conspicuous and kinda suspicious so its use is limited to primarily virtue signaling privacy advocates or crazy people and the latter aren’t usually big spenders.

Third: the engineering sounds challenging. All that metal in an undeployed fashion is going to reflect and interfere with reception. ( it isn’t an iron man suit, it has to get packed somewhere.). That may also interfere with RF safety approvals? Finally, avoiding RF leakage is surprisingly difficult in practice.

hattar•26m ago
> chip bag Italian meta data incident

I’m not familiar with this one and search didn’t get me anything that seemed relevant. Got a link to something describing the incident?

nsvd2•24m ago
What is the chip bag Italian meta data incident?
blahlabs•19m ago
What is the infamous chip bag Italian meta data incident? I have had a quick search but nothing obvious jumped out. I'm very curious!
hattar•29m ago
Maybe this is a dumb comment, but couldn’t you just turn the phone off? You’d have to trust that the setting to disable Bluetooth when powered down is reliable and configured correctly, but if your use case is that sensitive even carrying a smartphone seems questionable.
derefr•12m ago
No; if a phone has both a non-removable battery and a baseband modem, then various laws require that modem to be wired directly to that battery (and to the phone's microphone) and to able to be activated in response to a legal wiretap order, even when the phone itself is nominally "powered off."

(And this doesn't even require that the phone stay connected to the network after the wiretap-enable packet is received. Rather, while the phone is "powered off", the baseband modem might sit there passively acting as a bug, capturing conversation through the microphone onto a bit of NAND onboard the modem; and then, once the phone is powered on again, the baseband modem will take the opportunity to silently play back whatever it's recorded to the tower.)

> if your use case is that sensitive even carrying a smartphone seems questionable.

The issue is that, if you're an actual honest-to-god spy (or investigative journalist...) trying to poke their nose into the goings-on of some government, then you want to draw as little suspicion to yourself as possible; and it's much more suspicious to be going around without the subject government's favorite citizen-surveillance tool on your person. In fact, to blend in, you need to be constantly using your state-surveillance-device to communicate with (decoy) friends and coworkers, doom-scroll, etc.

This is why spies are fans of the few remaining Android phone brands that offer designs with removable batteries. When meeting with a contact, they'll still slip their could-be-bugged-phone into a faraday bag, to cut off its network connectivity; but they'll also remove the phone's battery before putting the phone into the faraday bag, to inhibit this class of "powered-off" record-to-NAND-style baseband wiretap attacks.

(Of course, these are just ways to secure a phone you own + can determine wasn't subject to a supply-chain attack. If two people are meeting who aren't within the same security envelope, then either of them might be trying to surreptitiously record the conversation, and so their phones (or anything else on them) might contain a tiny bug with its own power source, that would stay active even if the macro-scale device's battery was removed. For such meetings, you therefore want to leave all electronic devices in a soundproof safe, in another room. Which will also implicitly act as a faraday cage.)

stackghost•6m ago
> if a phone has both a non-removable battery and a baseband modem, then various laws require that modem to be wired directly to that battery (and to the phone's microphone) and to able to be activated in response to a legal wiretap order, even when the phone itself is nominally "powered off."

Could you link to such a law?

odo1242•29m ago
You wouldn’t be able to use a Faraday case. The physics principle behind it requires it to surround the whole device which is being shielded.
lostlogin•15m ago
The iPhone antennagate story would suggest that sometimes this isn’t the situation.
Yossarrian22•1m ago
A faraday cage is different than your hand attenuating your phone signal
silisili•24m ago
I'm curious how you'd plan the toggling to work. It'd have to be foldable at minimum to be able to wrap around and over the screen. But I'd imagine just having a folded back faraday shield on the back of the phone would tank network performance no?
addaon•17m ago
Just electroless plate the interior of something like this [0]? Or use conductive paint if the polyurethane doesn't take an electroless well. Don't know what OEM Nillkin uses but I'm sure the factory has iPhone cases as well.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Nillkin-Samsung-Leather-Magnetic-Prot...

Edit: Oh, missed the "toggle on/off without removing the device." Nah, that's not a thing that's going to work. Even with the flap open you'll be attenuating enough RF through the back that either you won't have a decent connection, or your battery life will be crap.

thanhhaimai•17m ago
I don't understand the use case. What would this provides that Airplane Mode doesn't?
Razengan•10m ago
Certainty?
stackghost•9m ago
In theory, an APT-type implant could keep transmitting even when airplane mode is engaged. This is what Faraday enclosures purportedly defeat.
lostlogin•14m ago
Couldn’t you just turn off wifi, cellular data and bluetooth?
snypher•9m ago
The question was hard for me to parse; I want to carry with me a snitch, but remove its ability to snitch, but be able to restore it's ability to snitch?

My approach is; how do avoid the snitch? I just leave my phone in the car or at home.

CGMthrowaway•14m ago
1) You can't have any moving parts on it or the seams become a slot antenna

2) Will drain your battery as it adds power to find a faraway cell tower (unless you are in airplane mode)

3) It actually does exist. It costs $1000: https://privoro.com/product-vault

jeffbee•7m ago
Because even though insane cranks are like 45% of HN they aren't a large enough customer base to move markets.
adastra22•3m ago
Why do you remove your case to put a phone in a faraday bag?
pwndByDeath•1m ago
Start a viral campaign for iphone with mechanical switches