Let me be clear: This is precisely about sides and ideologies.
How so? It is, I suppose, pushing an ideology that everyone should support education, research, clean air, and safe roads, but any belief in some sort of universal good must rely on an ideology, if only circularly on the ideology that there is such a thing as a universal good.
TFA seems to say "This is important and we shouldn't cut general funding", but also goes on to call on industry, in particular large tech company CEOs to push back against ideologically driven funding cuts. That toes the line of calling for political responses.
The author (and Nature) pretends like those aren't real problems and that scientists should get unconditional support. That's never been the case.
There are currently existing ideologies in power in some countries (e.g. in Argentina, not everything is about the US!) that stand for de-funding health, education and basic science and research, and anything that is not of immediate use for businesses. It's a self-defeating ideology (because business do benefit from basic research in the long term), but it does exist today.
Another good argument against our subsidy of education (although maybe not against research) is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_Against_Education
I don't really agree, and I am surprised there are people here who would argue against funding research.
What's actually happening is that most of the wealth and tax revenue is generated by the coastal metropolitan areas of the US, which basically subsidize the rural inland regions of the country. Things like Medicare which those same rural folks vote against. This is because the amount of wealth generated by science and technology vastly outweighs what is being generated by rural areas of the country.
Now we cut off the pipeline and investment into those wealth generating areas so that long term, the nation will head into decline...
Its really on the nose when these two examples has been anything but fundamental. There are many people out there that don't believe these things are worth working towards.
In lieu of a thorough argument I'll post this old clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xcQIoh3FQQ
I think what we're seeing is that there is obviously a need to rein in some of those corporate excesses you're alluding to, and try to protect the research core that we need to move the nation, and humanity in general, forward.
Like nobody enjoys giving up more than half of their grants to the school admin. But cutting it down 15% max all of a sudden is not a change that is going to stick around.
What is the serious path to fixing them? I don't think academics are moving the needle with their current strat of a bit of handwringing followed by conceding to the system anyway.
Presumably this is in reference to the years 1993-1995, 2009-2011, and 2021-2023...? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divided_government_in_the_Unit...
> recently in some places it has been blatantly about ideologies
I agree if we use the word "ideology" in an absolute, philosophical sense, but I think this it's missing the authors point entirely. To illustrate with a more familiar term: basically every part of social life is technically political, but when people say 'this isn't about politics', they're trying to communicate that it doesn't relate to the actively-debated divisions of the day among elected officials. US prosperity is something that no side will own up to opposing, and yet here we are, dismantling our soft power in the academic sphere and beyond at a breakneck pace.
Yes, but academia doesn't have the money to be of help for the industry.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2009/feb/17/rise-appli... (16 years ago) and more recently https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-12/grad-scho...
The article lists a bunch of old-timers, like Page and Brin. Right now, everyone is talking about the "$100M offers" from Meta, for people who completed (or dropped out) of their computer science PhDs.
What does "not standing for industry" mean to you?
The article points out that industry benefits from academic funding.
Are you implying that a) academia does not benefit from industry or b) if industry’s survival were threatened academia would not care?
Academia benefits hugely from industry and would/does stand to protect those benefits.
Academic labs are often very eager to partner with industry to bring things to market. At least from my view in cancer. Especially the NCI is very impactful in making sure that discovery makes it to patients as quickly as possible.
I see it in my elite educated children. The more productive (and I mean literally in terms of producing something) they look down on it. The ideal job is academia, government, politics, or the arts. I know I am over-generalizing, but its like college teaches them you are Satan if you work for an oil company or Monsanto and a saint if you work for the EPA or FDA. Both are flawed but you also need both.
So, if they're teaching all these are pure evil, they are not doing a very good job.
>The tech giants whose founders and engineers were trained in these institutions, whose core technologies were incubated in these research environments
There is a reason many of those founders dropped out than continue. It turns out that what you learn is useless and inefficient compared to picking up the knowledge externally. Practical experience is a much better teacher than the people at universities. Every day at class I would keep a tally of how many lies and incorrect statements and explainations would get made every day.
Also notice how those core technologies are not listed because it would weaken there point.
It's natural for universities to argue for why they are still relevant in the 21st century. They don't want to be disrupted.
You don't need a list. You need to research the subjects on which you care to be informed.
In your computer science classes? What/where were you studying?
Blowing 4 years and a bunch of money at university getting a computer science degree is one of the biggest regrets of my life. Luckily I already had a software job during my 1st year, so those years weren't totally wasted.
If you were smarter than all of your professors you either went to a very bad college or you are experiencing something like Dunning Kruger
I'm sure my professors knew their computer science niches just fine, but they knew very little about programming & software engineering. Programming was my main hobby growing up. In high school I was already using Linux, had written dozens of websites for myself and friends, had written a 3D platforming game from scratch, and had made and published several homebrew games for real video game hardware. Having to then spend a semester "learning" C++ and operating system basics, from someone who has spent their whole life in academia and never published any real software, was godawful. They barely knew what they were talking about and made all kinds of beginner mistakes. I definitely knew way more than my professors about the subject I was there to learn, computer programming.
Acknowledging that I was supported by an NSF graduate research fellowship, so I benefitted from the thing I malign, but NSF, academia, and the whole federal government pissed off a good chunk of the country with DEI initiatives, codified by affirmative action, extra grant requirements, and ideological purity statements. Some anti-science folks tapped into this anger and now we’re here, reading this Op-Ed.
I do fear this is the end of America’s post-WW2 STEM hegemony, but at the same time, it feels a little good
The "feels pretty bad" bit comes much later.
The reality is that our companies will still be able to hire scientists from foreign universities. There's still Tsinghua. The Germans rolled deep at a Harvard get together I was at and nearly all of them were from TUM or Mannheim. And the brightest was actually out of Ludwig Maximillian.
So humanity's capacity to push the boundaries of science forward is safe with or without us. Now, do we want to be a part of the leading edge of that? My answer would be an enthusiastic yes! But it's perfectly right for other people to feel differently.
If we let them in.
https://www.state.gov/releases/office-of-the-spokesperson/20...
"Under President Trump’s leadership, the U.S. State Department will work with the Department of Homeland Security to aggressively revoke visas for Chinese students, including those with connections to the Chinese Communist Party or studying in critical fields. We will also revise visa criteria to enhance scrutiny of all future visa applications from the People’s Republic of China and Hong Kong."
Or we might arrest them when they come.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/25/science/russian-scientist...
"Ms. Petrova was detained on Feb. 16, when she returned from a vacation in France carrying samples of frog embryos from an affiliate laboratory in Paris at the request of her supervisor at Harvard. She then spent more than three months in an Immigration and Customs Enforcement detention center, eventually drawing attention from scientists around the world. Her defenders have condemned the government’s pursuit of her as draconian, conveying a chilling message to noncitizen academics."
As a result, they're already nopeing out.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-01636-5
"Several academic and scientific conferences in the United States have been postponed, cancelled or moved elsewhere, as organizers respond to researchers’ growing fears over the country’s immigration crackdown."
But to be fair, that's a different problem.
And even if we in the US want to institute policies rooted in various ideologies of superiority, (most of which border on imbecillia)..
humanity in the rest of the world would still push forward the boundaries of science. That was my material point.
But yeah, you make a point that really does kind of demolish my assertion that we would benefit from that global effort.
Revanchism typically does, but it's a highly destructive path. Hope you're enjoying the high now, the lows could be quite ugly.
On one research grant I led for NASA, the grant reviewer asked me to count the number of minority students on the team, from their picture displayed on one of my slides. That's just the kind of information I didn't gather because I was trying to run a research task and had employed the entire lab a professor led.
That's fine, but we should also recognize how weird it is.
Really? I don't think that's true at all based on the swing voters I've talked to.
Also, you know real swing voters? Like people who vote for more than one political party? I do this sometimes, but feel so bad about it I can hardly admit it!
1. That really has nothing to do with what's going on. I feel comfortable saying that it is a plain fact that the Trump administration is not just pushing back against woke language or affirmative action, they are dismantling the entire scientific infrastructure. It's up to you to infer why (maybe for a good reason!), but denying that it's happening is doing yourself a disservice. That's of course not even mentioning how "anti-DEI" seems to be awfully close to old-school segregation in practice...
2. I think you're mischaracterizing the basic mechanics of referrenda. Again, without getting too far into political particulars, I think it's objectively true that "stop the woke" was only a small part of Trump's campaign, even if we grant that that phrase logically implies what's happening now. He spent most of the final months denying P2025, hitting "no taxes on tips" and "Trump == Safety, Kamala == Crime" hard, associating Harris with Biden & The Deep State, and, above all, talking about inflation and the price of eggs and "a new American golden age". Of course all voters should read up on everything a candidate says, but we know that's far from the case.
The human emotion of spite is an attitude, not a permanent trait we call "evil". I've felt spite. You've felt spite.
I've never killed a national institution out of spite like these people are trying to do with academia. But I yearn to someday eliminate the Forbes 500 list. Does that make me evil? That's a judgement call. How much do you need the Forbes 500 list? How essential is it to your future well-being that those people keep on existing at their current level of wealth? Compare with academia.
Good thing all these absolutely terrible ideas only exist in one party.
The only way to fix this is to apologize for the things you think are actually important and correct the mistake.
Alternatively if you really do deeply want these things you could acknowledge we can't share them, find some way to separate yourself, and go build them with like minded people and without the rest of the country. But that probably means finding or creating a different state to do it in.
Accumulation of scientific knowledge is a positive externality, and the current administration doesn't care about benefits to other countries. Or costs to other countries, for negative externalities as from CO2.
The rhetoric - both from those starting DEI intiatives in the last few years and from the reactionaries acts as if it's world changing. But 99% of DEI is BS like rainbow branding or 1hr click through trainings.
None of that warrents this kind of reaction. In fact, it's just a pretext for rightwing leadership to do things it wants to do for other reasons.
> the whole federal government pissed off a good chunk of the country with DEI initiatives, codified by affirmative action, extra grant requirements, and ideological purity statements
Certainly there were affirmative action programs within the NSF, yes, but I think it's trivially obvious that they only affected a small minority of applications. RE:"ideological purity statements", I'm assuming this means stuff like affirming the vague concept of social equality and civil rights? If so, that's a goofy framing; the scientific process is seriously endangered by entrenched biases, which every human necessarily has on some level or another: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-epistemology/
Regardless, I seriously question the idea that "a good chunk of the country" was actually "pissed off" by these things (much less anything at all involving the NSF and NIH programs, which most voters are only vaguely aware of). Lots of privileged people in this country continued to voice the exact same oppositions to social change that they have since the ~~1960s~~ 1860s, sure, and perhaps they have some valid points -- this isn't the place to really litigate that. But on an objective level, I find the idea that this is some justified reaction to post-2008 wokism to be fundamentally incorrect.
If you said that corporate America is no place for DEI and everyone should be hired based on merits alone, I would agree.
I don’t think the reason for the lack of US citizen minorities being underrepresented in tech is because of systemic racism and when I did do my stint at Amazon post 2020, I found the performative “allyship, DEI initiatives moan worthy at best and considering that Amazon is the shittyist employer in BigTech, I found it laughable”. Yes I knew that going in and it was a remote position. I went in with my eyes wide open.
But on the other hand, if it is a pipeline problem, where should initiatives happen to give opportunities in tech if not in academia and who should do it if not the government?
That being said, it would be a lot more palatable to voters if it was based on economic background than race. I can’t say with a straight face that had less opportunities as a minority when I went to private school from k-8th and came from an upper middle class background and had up to date computers where I taught myself how to program ever since the mid 80s.
And the sane party that decries putting people in positions they aren’t qualified for nominated RFK to head the DHHS and other unqualified people to be heads of other agencies.
Not to mention the shit show of DOGE.
It says "This is what system designers recognize as a pipeline stall." without acknowledging that research universities have billions of dollars in buffers.
It talks about talent pipeline without acknowledging that, for most students, colleges are mostly a gatekeeper (signaling device) and that, if the university system did not exist, the talents would still exist and mostly be developed to the same extent.
It talks about the transfer from basic research to industry, without talking about how industry has benefited universities.
It talks about the students who have gone on to do great things, without acknowledging that those students were pretty much forced by society to pay 5 or 6 figures to a top university, so that they could show an employer they are worth interviewing.
It doesn't talk about how top universities were found (by USSC) to have discriminated against applicants on the basis of race. There's credible evidence that (i) they're still doing this, and (ii) they've also done it during hiring and promotions.
IANAL, but AIUI it's illegal for the US government to fund institutions that discriminate based on race.
Where is this myth coming from?
The right wing talking points assume that this is the same for every university. And that it's not earmarked. And that universities should destroy their long term stability so that billionaires can get a tax break (well, destroying universities future is a plus for them).
Research universities typically have essentially zero endowment, and what they do have are not applicable to funding the research.
Endowments are "buffers" the same way one's equity in the home they live in is a buffer. Liquidating either is a sign of distress and will lead to worse outcomes. So they are less of a buffer, and more of a last resort.
During the same period, it received about $1bn in "Research: Federal and Non-Federal sponsored revenue".
I'm not sure paying that $1bn from its endowment would be an existential threat.
This is mostly a software engineering forum, but no... most actually important industries and scientific work, unlike building webapps or video games, work the same way as software.
John Doe straight of high school can go and make a photo sharing app with his laptop, but he is not going to be getting the same type of experience with non-trival research in his garage as at a research university.
To actually get to the point where people had laptops required years of largely academic research and creating markets which were almost entirely academic. Just like with vaccination, people forget the time when a young person (who wasn't named Bill Gates) could get experience on an actual computer was at a university.
I absolutely believe in the value of academia and agree we should support it. But this administration has made it clear that reform is expected. I’m not convinced that message is being fully heard. Until we see meaningful changes—such as a leaner administrative structure and a shift away from spending on vanity infrastructure—I’ll pass.
I went to an inexpensive state college and the infrastructure was horrible. I would guess that things like dorms are largely paid for from tuition. How much is tuition at the state college in your city?
And where do those NVIDIA employees live? In a van down by the river? Dorms are residential and need amenities, much like the pools and three car garages of those NVIDIA employees.
Even then, plenty of universities have old, decaying, buildings and run-down labs. I could just as easily point to the other bespoke and "remarkably luxurious-architecturally grand, stylish, and visibly well-funded" NVIDIA buildings. It seems like you have a grudge and any show of spending for a university is reason to criticize it.
I'm all for reform, but this vengeful callous destruction of science is not reform. It is revenge.
And yet, I haven’t seen a single example of administrative downsizing in our public universities—not one. Instead, I hear about professors losing grant funding and international students facing stress over visa uncertainty.
So when I say universities aren’t hearing the message, I’m referring specifically to the glaring lack of reform in their administrative structures. Until I see serious efforts to address this—starting with large-scale administrative layoffs—I'm not inclined to offer my sympathy.
What we see however is cancer research being cancelled and students careers being thrown in the dumpster. You've been fooled by right-wing propaganda that claims "reform", but it's not about reform for them, it is about crushing educated people so they cannot oppose their authoritarianism.
My university has had several rounds of layoffs in the past couple of years. Now we apparently avoided one, as California reversed the proposed cuts to state funding. But I don't know how newsworthy that was either.
Many of them are built and operated by private for profit companies that lease the land from the university and cooperate on programming and campus life.
And yet now that there's money at stake - not the money of those drowning in student loans, but those who benefit from the system - people come out of the woodwork to wax lyrical about the majesty of academia, championing its defense at all costs. Curious.
The same may be true for science.
All that is true, and fewer people should be pushed into pointless colleges.
ACM SIGOPS/SIGARCH does not represent that. This is a group of people doing fundamental work on computing systems, microprocessors, etc. They are largely at very technical schools, and lamenting that they won't be able to pay for PhD students -- who do not take loans, debt, etc.
(CS PhD students are paid well enough and have amazing post-PhD/dropout-PhD opportunities. Happy to have that argument.)
That's pretty naive. The latter is not immune to ideology, and even if it were, you can't have an ideology-free way of setting both the total amount and the split between sciences/topics within.
The vision at the top of the ivory tower shouldn't be this clouded.
On the one hand, academia has been taking sides for a long time.
On the other, there are elements that should be non-controversial.
I wish academia were more rigorous about not taking sides. I feel like they’ve been injecting their own ideology unnecessarily for a while.
Am I supposed to ignore that?
The best approach is some kind of grand bargain, and carefully considered compromise.
I have experience in academia. I’ve heard how they talk. They see their mission as transforming society.
There are exceptions, but even the exceptions are under pressure to conform.
It’s hard to address two problems at once. And I feel there are two legitimate problems: an overly ideological academy, and the need for both support and independence.
Solving one problem is hard enough. Solving both is impossible. So we will probably go back and forth for a while.
My default is to look at foreign countries. But I don’t see anywhere else that’s solved these problems.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read (I believe on this very forum though I can't find the link, but also see 1, 2, and 3) that the European universities are often closely aligned with local industries. A challenge here in the US: outside Silicon Valley, what are the manufacturing industries in the US cities with universities? What are the major industries in Kansas City? Are those companies funding research at UMKC? What are the major industries in Dallas? Are those companies funding research at Southwestern?
Ronny Chieng actually breaks down the larger problem quite nicely: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/i1Hi_hacvN4
So now we do in fact have an incredible university system supported in part by a mess of underskilled labor in fly-over states that dropped out of college after saddling themselves with significant educational debt.
Wildly, the one industry that is a major economic driver in most cities is healthcare, which is a pretty dead-end industry in terms of economic output, that is, outside of certain world-reknowned institutions like the Mayo Clinic, healthcare doesn't really generate a significant exportable commodity.
(1) https://education.ec.europa.eu/education-levels/higher-educa...
(2) https://www.jstor.org/stable/24118541
(3) https://sciencebusiness.net/news/universities/deepening-coll...
All this is to be expected in a service based economy.
busssard•3h ago
abirch•2h ago