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Agentic Coding Tools – Not Skynet, Not a Stochastic Parrot

https://www.brethorsting.com/blog/2025/07/agentic-coding-tools-not-skynet,-not-a-stochastic-parrot/
1•aaronbrethorst•1m ago•0 comments

Listen to Rfc2119

https://ericwbailey.website/published/you-must-listen-to-rfc-2119/
1•bluGill•3m ago•1 comments

Armin Ronacher on Agentic Coding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfOVgz_omlU
1•paulsutter•7m ago•0 comments

Super Simple "Hallucination Traps" to detect interview cheaters

3•EliotHerbst•16m ago•0 comments

A customizable and extensible all-purpose diagrams library for Blazor

https://github.com/Blazor-Diagrams/Blazor.Diagrams
1•mountainview•18m ago•0 comments

Coinbase Acquires LiquiFi

https://www.coinbase.com/es-la/blog/Coinbase-acquires-LiquiFi-the-leading-token-management-platform
1•wslh•19m ago•0 comments

Trans-Taiga Road:The farthest you can get from a town on a road in North America

https://www.jamesbayroad.com/ttr/index.html
2•jason_pomerleau•22m ago•0 comments

Checklist Genie App – Last Call for Beta Testers

https://checklistgenie.app
1•alohaplannerapp•23m ago•0 comments

Show HN: I created a privacy respecting ad blocker for apps

https://www.magiclasso.co/insights/app-ad-blocking/
1•bentocorp•24m ago•0 comments

An Analysis of Links from the White House's "Wire" Website

https://blog.jim-nielsen.com/2025/links-from-whgov-wire/
1•OuterVale•32m ago•0 comments

Why are my Product Hunt upvotes delayed

https://www.ceresai.xyz/
1•Mahsanziak9•40m ago•2 comments

Qualcomm's Centriq 2400 and the Falkor Architecture

https://chipsandcheese.com/p/qualcomms-centriq-2400-and-the-falkor
1•brian_herman•41m ago•0 comments

Bridging Shopify and Shipstation on Heroku: A Story of Custom Fulfillment

https://kevinhq.com/shopify-shipstation-heroku-integration/
1•kevinhq•44m ago•0 comments

My official list of post-glitch.com hosting options

https://livelaugh.blog/posts/glitch-alternatives/
1•raybb•45m ago•1 comments

All high value work is deep work, and all motivation is based on belief

https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/s/qV1w0XeFPw
2•Crier1002•47m ago•0 comments

'There is a problem': Meta users complain of being shut out of their accounts

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgnp9ykm3xo
4•mikece•48m ago•1 comments

Mount Everest's Trash-Covered Slopes Are Being Cleaned by Drones

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2025-07-03/dji-drones-clean-up-mount-everest-trash-in-record-time-amid-climate-change
2•nharada•49m ago•2 comments

Gaming on a Medical Device [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf-efIZI_Dg
1•JKCalhoun•50m ago•1 comments

Open Source 1.7tb Dataset of What AI Crawlers Are Doing

https://huggingface.co/datasets/lee101/webfiddle-internet-raw-cache-dataset
3•catsanddogsart•56m ago•0 comments

Microsoft will lay off 9k employees, or less than 4% of the company

https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/02/microsoft-will-lay-off-9000-employees-or-less-than-4-of-the-company/
5•mrcsharp•56m ago•2 comments

Whole-genome ancestry of an Old Kingdom Egyptian

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-09195-5
6•A_D_E_P_T•1h ago•0 comments

NYT to start searching deleted ChatGPT logs after beating OpenAI in court

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/07/nyt-to-start-searching-deleted-chatgpt-logs-after-beating-openai-in-court/
6•miles•1h ago•0 comments

AI virtual personality YouTubers, or 'VTubers,' are earning millions

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/07/02/ai-virtual-personality-youtubers-or-vtubers-are-earning-millions.html
3•pseudolus•1h ago•0 comments

US rural communities bearing the brunt of Bitcoin mining

https://www.dw.com/en/us-rural-communities-bearing-the-brunt-of-bitcoin-mining/a-72889383
4•musha68k•1h ago•1 comments

gmailtail: tail -f Your Gmail

https://github.com/c4pt0r/gmailtail
1•c4pt0r•1h ago•0 comments

A Non-Partisan U.S. Military Is Essential

https://time.com/7296041/non-partisan-military-is-essential/
5•herecomethefuzz•1h ago•0 comments

What to build instead of AI agents

https://decodingml.substack.com/p/stop-building-ai-agents
46•giuliomagnifico•1h ago•28 comments

Flint, Michigan replaces most lead pipes 10 years after Michigan water crisis

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/flint-replaces-lead-pipes-10-years-michigan-water-crisis-rcna216442
5•toomuchtodo•1h ago•2 comments

Nebius emerged from Russia as one of Nvidia's top-performing investments

https://sherwood.news/tech/nebius-nvidia-gpus-ai-startup/
2•gmays•1h ago•0 comments

One Life

https://thisisyouronelife.com/
1•tasshin•1h ago•0 comments
Open in hackernews

Tesla reports 14% decline in deliveries, marking second year-over-year drop

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/07/02/tesla-tsla-q2-2025-vehicle-delivery-and-production-numbers.html
90•ceejayoz•11h ago

Comments

Analemma_•11h ago
On the one hand, this was slightly better than analyst predictions.

On the other hand, last quarter Tesla (and its online defenders) insisted the reason for the previous drop was that people were waiting for refreshed models. Now that the refreshes have been available for a full quarter and sales are still declining, we can rule that possibility out.

sorcerer-mar•11h ago
Unsurprisingly: $TSLA cult says this is good news
lesuorac•11h ago
How is this not amazing news?

TSLA has a 14% decline in deliveries but 19% increase in stock price. The direction of the company should be clear, decline deliveries by 100% for a sweat 2000% stock appreciation.

ksherlock•11h ago
According to WSJ, according to FactSet:

"The final quarterly tally of 384,122 missed analysts’ expectations of 387,000 deliveries"

wpm•11h ago
$TSLA up 3.88% at the time of this comment.
Hamuko•11h ago
The car company may not be selling vehicles but it has around ten invite-only self-driving manned robotaxis in a single US city that was possibly mapped separately before launch, so it's obviously worth a lot of money.
maeln•11h ago
And -3.91% on the last 5 days, and -8.89% in the last month, and +34% in the last year. There is no real point to be taken here.
peab•11h ago
Yeah. The fact is Tesla is a volatile stock. You can paint any picture you want if you select the right timeframe.
onlyrealcuzzo•11h ago
It's hard to un-paint the picture that it's got a 170 P/E, and it has 2 years of negative growth...

Use a 365 day rolling average. You'll arrive at the same absurdity.

spacemadness•9h ago
People love making excuses for this stock. It’s a meme stock. It makes no sense and it never will.
leesec•6h ago
I love when everyone says this as if there is not very obvious reasons it could trade this high
jasonlotito•11h ago
That's 1) buying the dip and 2) beating the estimate. TSLA has always been about the personality of a car salesman more than anything, so this isn't a surprise.
b_zak•11h ago
Genuine question: what is driving the stock that high in contradiction to the news ?
johannes1234321•10h ago
Assuming "the market" to act "rational" (which can be questioned to some degree in that case - there is hype and the Musk-Factor ..) the driver is that the news may still be better than the prediction: If everybody two days ago assumed a decline of sales by 30% the stocks dropped back then, then real numbers come and decline is "only" 14% they raise again as the bad news are still better than assumed.

(The 30% is just an arbitrary number)

Spooky23•10h ago
Elon does alot of manipulation of the stock. Also, the market is kind of shell shocked and has no idea wtf to do.
epolanski•10h ago
Even at insane growth multiples there's plenty of high/mega caps on the SP500 that will never, ever return investors the money that simple bonds will, you're paying way too much for way too little (future) cash flows and book.

There's many companies that have their revenues flat or falling from quite some time which are still priced for insane future growth. Go figure.

linotype•10h ago
In the short run, the market is a voting machine. In the long run, it is a weighing machine. This still applies to TSLA.
ARandumGuy•10h ago
Tesla's stock price has always seemed completely irrational to me. Tesla's market cap is over double Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, VW, GM, and Ford combined. All while selling far fewer cars then any of those manufacturers.

For this market cap to make sense, Tesla would have to eventually become the dominant car manufacturer worldwide. And that just doesn't seem like a reasonable prediction, given that legacy car manufacturers are starting to figure out EVs, and newer EV-focused manufacturers are making huge strides.

I don't know when (or even if) Tesla's stock price will fall back down to Earth. The old saying is that the market can remain irrational longer then you can remain solvent. But I do know that Tesla's stock price is not a good indicator of how well they're doing as a car manufacturer.

stoobs•11h ago
I'm expecting sales to drop even further at this point.

Elon is too toxic, and they got distracted with the whole cybertruck nonsense and kicked the model 1/smaller more euro-focused one into the long grass

api•10h ago
Elon also alienated their main customer base, then turned around and alienated the far right crowd he was trying to woo. Obviously 5D chess.
ARandumGuy•10h ago
In general, the people who like EVs hate Elon's politics, and the people who like Elon's politics hate EVs. This significantly reduces the amount of people who want to buy a Tesla.

This is the risk when you tie your brand to a single person, especially someone who loves being in the spotlight. Whenever that person does something controversial, that reflects poorly on the brand.

blonder•10h ago
As a (former) huge tesla fan/shareholder, and current model 3 enjoyer, the cybertruck really makes me upset. The millions of dollars and engineering hours devoted to that thing that could have been devoted to a new product that people actually want and use (or even a halo product like the forgotten new roadster) was and is incredibly wasteful.
gortok•11h ago
As someone who dislikes Musk's seemingly oblivious approach to "Move fast and break things" in government when real lives are at stake and expertise is not easy to come by, I really want this drop to be attributable to that. I really, really do.

I own a Tesla (2023 Model Y Long Range 7-seat), and I do enjoy my Model Y; I have some complaints, but overall I'm happy with the safety features of the vehicle. I do not and will not enable the FSD or Auto-steer; but otherwise I am happy with it, and want other car manufacturers to take note of the vertical technological integration possible when they put their minds to it.

However, in pursuit of a better bottom line, Tesla has made some affordance changes to their post 2023 models; and even their camera vision in the 2023 model is a poor substitute for ultra-sonic sensors for parking.

Combine that with their gutting of the Tesla Supercharger team; and the subsequent decline in quality of their supercharger experience, and then combine that with the macro-economic issues that are surrounding EV range and EV experiences in real world conditions; and you have a decline that can be attributed to the non-Musk effects as well.

I don't doubt his political machinations have contributed to Tesla's decline. If I could sell my Tesla, I would; (I am way underwater due to its steep drop in resale value), but I think a substantial percentage of this drop can be attributable to the hype of the EV not living up to the reality of owning an EV.

fossuser•11h ago
You should really try FSD, I have it drive me from SF down the peninsula and back every day and it’s amazing, basically requires zero intervention.

I think the political complaints are dumb and people over index on stuff that doesn’t matter because of partisan politics. HN has hated on Tesla and musk for years despite continued success across multiple difficult industries.

If the robotaxi work in Austin succeeds they’ll have a massive advantage. There’s really nobody close to what Tesla is doing.

I had a 2018 M3P and now a 2025 Model S Plaid, the vision stuff works better, the quality is a lot nicer, there are a lot more superchargers and more are v3 or v4.

The quality of the comments on this thread suggest there’s still value here to buy. When people dismiss stuff for dumb reasons it’s easy to make money. It’s been the story of Tesla from the beginning.

gortok•10h ago
I'm sure Teslas automated features work well in California, where their engineers are based. They do not, however, work as well in the varying climates found on the East Coast. This is funny as a "works on my machine" approach to testing, but tragic since real lives are at stake.
fossuser•10h ago
My dad takes his from Western New York down to Florida pretty regularly and does FSD most of the way.

I think these complaints are just outdated - it has improved rapidly over the last two years. If you never use it why would you think you have an accurate model for how good it is in different environments?

SF is also hardly a simple environment to drive in, it’s more complicated than most east coast driving.

ceejayoz•10h ago
> My dad takes his from Western New York down to Florida pretty regularly and does FSD most of the way.

To avoid the winter weather (which a Tesla finds problematic), one presumes?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowbird_(person)

p-o•10h ago
I know you are making stuff up as I own a Tesla and live on the East coast and FSD is nowhere close to what you are describing. You can barely use FSD 4 months out of the year.
fossuser•10h ago
Do you have hardware 4? I’m not making things up, it works for me and I use it a lot.
gortok•10h ago
I use their adaptive cruise control; and unless they intentionally nerfed it compared to their FSD, I have to be really careful using it in the DC area, as it will randomly brake in certain places.

With the latest Tesla Updates I can tell it thinks there's a grade or curve issue that is causing it to brake; but before the latest update it would just randomly brake in certain places (coming down from 70 to 40 very quickly) and that is just dangerous in the DC area.

fossuser•10h ago
It’s nerfed, it’s much worse than FSD
sorcerer-mar•10h ago
Just FYI "basically requires zero intervention" is nowhere close to what's needed for self-driving.

It needs to be probably 1-2 orders of magnitude better than what the vast majority of people would actually experience as "zero interventions ever".

One intervention every 80 miles ("basically zero") is 178 interventions per year for the average American driver. Let's say conservatively that 10% of those avoids an accident, you're looking at 17 accidents caused by each driver per year, never mind the accidents they're just victim to due to misfortunate of being near someone else's 17 annual accidents.

fossuser•10h ago
It’s still supervised, the Austin robotaxi is running unsupervised with newer software in a more controlled rollout.

For supervised minimal intervention is fine and 99% of the time I’m just sitting there watching. It’s still extremely valuable and useful and something nobody else is close to. It makes driving a lot simpler and safer. I already think it’s better than most people and would rather have a driver use it than not if I’m a passenger.

Unsupervised will be amazing if they can pull it off generally and will have major market effects, but obviously it’s harder for the reasons you describe.

sorcerer-mar•9h ago
I'm sorry for the direct snipe, but: what the fuck are you talking about?
thfuran•11h ago
>Musk's seemingly oblivious approach to "Move fast and break things" in government

DOGE wasn't incidentally and accidentally breaking things in their effort to save money, they were yammering about saving money as they systematically gutted the regulatory agencies investigating Musk.

mikeyouse•11h ago
To be fair, they also dismantled tons of important things with quiet constituencies that had nothing to do with Musk (USAID / PEPFAR, NIH, NEA, etc. etc.)
ceejayoz•10h ago
Sure, foreign aid to Africa has "nothing to do with" a white South African who forced his AI to spread disinformation about "white genocide" (https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/16/technology/xai-elon-musk-...) and managed to get white South Africans to be brought in as refugees as a political stunt (https://apnews.com/article/trump-south-africa-refugees-afrik...).
mikeyouse•10h ago
I meant in the context of helping him / his businesses - he clearly has an 'interest' in Africa but there was no financial or regulatory incentive for those cuts - they were just malicious on their own.
dmix•10h ago
> gutted

FAA laid off 400 employees out of 45,000.

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration laid off 4% of their employees

CFPB was responsible for probing Tesla for any customer complaints around auto-financing loans but they had not yet ever formally fined or sued Tesla. They were closest attempt at being 'gutted' with around 90% reduction, but all layoffs were halted by a judge.

So if he did try to gut them he failed.

epolanski•11h ago
> but otherwise I am happy with it, and want other car manufacturers to take note of the vertical technological integration possible when they put their minds to it

Can you make practical examples of this vertical technological integration?

bryanlarsen•10h ago
(responding to earlier version of comment referencing China).

Note that Tesla learned a lot of their vertical integration and manufacturing expertise from the Chinese. Their first factory in Fremont produced low quality product at a high price. Then they built a factory in China using a lot of local expertise which produced a much higher quality product much cheaper. Their German factory is a clone of the Chinese factory.

Reports are that Ford is in panic mode after analyzing the quality and performance of recent Chinese cars. If other companies are similar perhaps positive changes will be made in at least some of them.

gortok•10h ago
Let me start with the App.

The Tesla App allows me to lock, unlock the car, pop and close the trunk, check the cameras, schedule it to warm itself up, input destinations, see its real-time location, and see charging issues.

The app isn't clunky to use. It's wonderful, and it's really well made.

The car's infotainment system is vertically integrated; all of the features are available in one common interface and work well with one another. The car will automatically turn down the fans when I'm on a call, as just one example.

The cameras turn on and show me the blind spots when I'm changing lanes (my only complaint there is that the side-view mirrors do not physically allow me to position them as recommended by NHTSA).

The integrated maps also include charging station availability; and the maps automatically update (I don't need to buy an SD Card from a manufacturer with the updated maps). The software team is able to push updates to my car; so if there are bugs with their bluetooth, it gets fixed without me having to go to the dealership and hoping they care enough about their technology stack to fix it.

If there are bugs, they get fixed; and since they're not dealing with different third-party modules, they own the entire stack that is in the car.

My only complaints are that I can't use Waze on my Tesla, which shows where cops are, and sometimes their navigation routes are wonky and aren't practical (like driving through the middle of DC to avoid going around the beltway), but otherwise the technical experience of owning and operating a tesla an using their infotainment system is lightyears ahead of any other car I've driven.

Contra that with the Volkswagen I just rented where its Carplay crashed and crashed the whole infotainment system; or the bug where its rearview camera stayed on until I manually closed it when I shifted into drive;

FireBeyond•9h ago
I'll start this by saying that while I don't agree with all the UX decisions Tesla has made, the UI of their interface and app is certainly extremely polished.

But (and I'll note you didn't claim this specifically) a lot of these are things others do.

My Audi app lets me lock and unlock the car, check fuel level/range and oil, need for service, see its location, etc.

Cameras with indicator usage is across multiple manufacturers.

I do not need to buy map updates, they come over cellular. As do software updates.

I realize that software is a different beast, but if you're comparing VW based on a rental, then the Teslas I've rented at times were garbage, too. Poor sealing so the cabins whistled at freeway speeds, non-updated software that played havoc with the cars world view, showing cars and trucks around me constantly vanishing and reappearing, phantom vehicles. Not to mention a plethora of "sensor/camera/etc blocked" even though the vehicle was clean.

justinrubek•8h ago
I can't really agree with the app. Yes, it isn't bad. Wonderful and well made? Not so much. I see this as more of a testament to how bad the rest of the industry is. And I say this as someone who thinks this vehicle sets the baseline standard for a good vehicle experience.
hellotomyrars•5h ago
These aren't unique to Tesla, though a lot of manufacturers want you to pay to have a lot of that stuff in their app, which is fucked. I also want less touch controls and less entirely featureless controls. My car is a 2012 Mini Countryman (no screens other than dot matrix displays) and I was on a roof at a work site and threw my keys down to another guy to move it, He described it as being like `in a spaceship`. Which really tickled me because he had a 2024 mustang with big touch screens in it. I guess mine was like a spaceship to him because of all the physical controls and toggle switches.

My parents have a 2021 Hyundai Santa Cruz (First model year!) and the design is baffling to me. The AC controls are on a capacitive touch display below the main one so you have no idea what you're doing unless you're looking at it. There are also multiple controls with almost no tactile feel at the base of the drive select lever and seat climate controls mounted to the front of the center divider that just a few raised bumps on would go a long way to helping quickly identify them while pawing around there to turn the seat heat/cool. The infotainment does OTA but the maps updates require using a USB drive. You can do it at home though it is an incredibly clunky and antiquated process.

To be perfectly honest the only things about the Santa Cruz that I wish my car had as far as the electronics go is blind spot/camera feeds and modern media support (carplay). Other than that I strongly prefer my incredibly aged dash. My front and center is just a tachometer with a small dot matrix display that shows the current speed digitally with one more below that for a couple other things (I leave it on real-time fuel consumption.) That is it. I'd rather use my phone for maps (Standalone or via carplay) over anything built in to any vehicle I've ever driven.

WA•11h ago
> but I think a substantial percentage of this drop can be attributable to the hype of the EV not living up to the reality of owning an EV.

If this were true, the market for EVs would decline in entirety. But it doesn't, or at least, not by 14%. For many people, EVs are ok, despite their real-world drawbacks: https://ourworldindata.org/electric-car-sales

Slight drawbacks can be attributed to ending of subsidies for EV purchases, not necessarily because EVs are inherently worse than ICE cars.

trimbo•10h ago
> If this were true, the market for EVs would decline in entirety

I was just reading a different article[1] that pointed out 4 of the top EV sellers in the US (Tesla, Ford, Kia and Hyundai) have announced Q2 drops in sales. BMW is the another top EV seller whose sales dropped in Q2[2]. Of major sellers, only GM has risen.

It's probably too early to say that "the market for EVs" is declining, but this doesn't seem great.

[1] - https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/tesla-sales-q2-2025-e2087...

[2] - https://www.theautochannel.com/news/2025/07/01/1549392-bmw-r...

WA•10h ago
Are we talking US or world-wide? Because Tesla figures are world-wide. According to the article of this HN thread, Tesla doesn't provide per-country numbers. Your [2] seems to be BMW US. [1] is paywalled.
bryanlarsen•6h ago
GM sales have more than doubled. EV's do seem to be more of a winner-take-all market than gasoline vehicles. So overall numbers (which are up) seem more relevant.
evanelias•5h ago
When comparing 2024 H1 to 2025 H1, those GM numbers are skewed. They stopped producing the Chevy Bolt at the end of 2023, and didn't start selling the Equinox EV until May 2024. So their 2024 H1 EV numbers were lower than usual.
bryanlarsen•10h ago
Up until 2021, everybody buying an EV expected to be underwater. EV prices were dropping 10% per year and Tesla was promising to deliver the Cybertruck for $40k. So if you could get a Cybertruck for $40K, a new Model Y would be a similar price. And if anybody could get a new model Y for $40K, obviously a used Model Y would be worth substantially less than that.

But we bought anyway -- it was like buying computers 20 years ago -- yes, you could buy a lot more computer for less money in a few months, but if you were always waiting you'd never buy a computer.

The difference is that we expected the same thing to happen to gas cars. If you can buy a good electric car brand new for $30K, any used car gas or electric is worth substantially less than that.

And that's what would happen if we had access to Chinese cars and prices. $8K for a pretty good small car. $15K for a model 3 competitor. $25K for a model Y competitor. $35K for Porsche Macan competitor.

ahahahahah•7h ago
> Up until 2021, everybody buying an EV expected to be underwater

Not if they believed the CEO of Tesla, he was out there telling them they would be buying an appreciating asset. And now, that might sound dumb (and in hindsight very clearly is), but there were a lot of people who did believe.

vjvjvjvjghv•10h ago
“I don't doubt his political machinations have contributed to Tesla's decline. If I could sell my Tesla, I would; (I am way underwater due to its steep drop in resale value), but I think a substantial percentage of this drop can be attributable to the hype of the EV not living up to the reality of owning an EV. ”

I don’t know anybody who would go back to ICE after owning an EV. But I know a lot of people including myself who wouldn’t buy a Tesla because of Musk’s behavior. For me it started with the Thai cave rescue and Musk’s stupid submarine.

dspillett•10h ago
> I don't doubt his political machinations have contributed to Tesla's decline. If I could sell my Tesla, I would; (I am way underwater due to its steep drop in resale value), but I think a substantial percentage of this drop can be attributable to the hype of the EV not living up to the reality of owning an EV.

I'm pretty sure his political playing around has had an effect, though I think other issues such as well documented quality problems and bad comparisons to other EVs has had a greater effect. The joke that is the cybertruck is a large part of the problem too, some people don't want to be associated with that and wouldn't even if it were not for the other matters, and and its quality problems (how many recalls have there been now?) are far more well known than the issues in the rest of the product range (those products are on the whole a lot better, but is the average reasonable buyer going to take that risk?).

eightysixfour•10h ago
> but I think a substantial percentage of this drop can be attributable to the hype of the EV not living up to the reality of owning an EV.but I think a substantial percentage of this drop can be attributable to the hype of the EV not living up to the reality of owning an EV.

What is the "hype" of owning an EV? I've owned one, I now have a hybrid. It wasn't because the EV didn't live up to some imagined hype, it was actually one of the better cars I've ever owned at its job, but my requirements changed an an EV didn't fit.

On a per mile basis it was cheap, the performance was exceptional, and the infotainment was light years ahead of most other vehicles. Is there someone out there expecting it to walk the dog and cook and clean too?

mynameisash•10h ago
> On a per mile basis it was cheap

Just to make this concrete: I keep spreadsheets for all my vehicles, and I enter every single fuel up. My family's CRV costs $0.161/mile to drive.

I bought a VW ID.4 in January, and I also track its recharges. That car costs $0.030/mile. I don't know yet about maintenance, but just for the daily driving, gas costs 5.36x that of an EV. What would be a $45 fill-up of gas is an $8.40 electric bill.

gortok•10h ago
The "Hype" (not sure why we're using scare-quotes here; as if somehow EVs are the only thing that aren't subject to the Gartner Hype Cycle) surrounding EVs include some of the following:

- Range is vastly overstated, especially in adverse weather conditions (like cold, snow, or even heat) As an example, in spring, when conditions are perfect (70 degree weather, not too sunny, not too cloudy), my Tesla Model Y LR that is supposed to get 330 miles from a 100% charge gets ... 250. That's not even close to accurate. In winter or in adverse weather conditions it can drop down to as much as 180. That's close to a 50% drop.

- Taking an EV on a long trip is not a simple prospect; and even now in 2025 Tesla still hasn't made it convenient to put in a destination and get there. Somehow the tesla navigation assumes (and up until this latest software update you had to do it yourself) that somehow when you get to where you're going a charger will be within x% of you, for whatever percentage of "x" is when you arrive at your destination. Until the latest update, we had to trick the Tesla by making our destination a round trip affair, to get it to give us a super-charger that would hopefully be close to where we're going, so it wasn't a matter of getting to our destination and manually figuring out where the nearest supercharger is. (We use it for Hockey, so we are frequently driving up the East Coast from the DC Area).

- To keep on the Super Charger issues, it is common to arrive and find undocumented issues with Superchargers (their latest updates also seem to have tried to deal with that problem, though it's not 100% fixed), or entire Supercharger stations literally being out of service but not documented on their side.

- Outside of First party charging; the thirdparty charging, like through Chargepoint et. al. is even worse. As an owner of a Tesla, it's more likely that any third-party charger I try to use will have a problem where my car doesn't actually charge. It's super annoying and at a recent visit to Hershey Park PA, I didn't find out until I came back two hours later that no charging had occurred. I don't blame Tesla for this (though it'd be nice to have a push notification warning me after 5 minutes that nothing is charging), but this is a larger EV Problem. - Overall, taking an EV somewhere still means planning your trip carefully to ensure your destination has charging, how you're getting there has charging, and a back-up plan in case that charging doesn't work.

- Like recently, my spouse took our Tesla to Massuchusetts to pick up our daughter from Soccer camp; and to where we were going there was literally a route that was backed up for 4 hours, and another route that had no superchargers for about 100 miles. So we could either deal with the fact that she was in traffic for four extra hours, or we could deal with the fact that no first-party chargers were in the other route and hope the third-party chargers were up to snuff.

- Wear and tear on the car tires. I got 30,000 miles out of my tires and the tire technician said that was pretty good. They regularly deal with Teslas and other EVs that eat through tires much more quickly than the tires are rated for (and these are Tesla approved tires) due to the weight of the vehicle and the braking dynamics.

- Supply chain for repairs. There's lots of collision centers in the Washington DC area. There are lots of vehicles hanging out, waiting for parts. By far the most vehicles that stay out there the longest (both from my conversations with folks that work at the collision centers and my own eyeballs, I pass two every day) say that EVs, especially Teslas, have a much longer lead time than non-EV vehicles for parts, and that there are not as many OEMs for those parts. So that means if you get in a wreck with a Tesla, you can be waiting weeks or months when someone else might only wait a week or two for a part. As the supply chains improve for EVs that will get better, but that's still a concern for now, and a reason why you can't go "all EV" if you do any serious driving (like we do).

- Charging is not yet as easy as finding a Gas station and taking five minutes to pump gas. It's 15-30 minutes at a Supercharger depending on what you're charging to. Luckily most of the super chargers I used have good amenities close by, but some don't. Some are random mall parking lots with nothing nearby.

These are things the hype cycle doesn't tell you about and you don't realize until you've actually owned an EV and tried to make it your day-to-day vehicle. It's wonderful for short commutes to work; but there are real drawbacks, especially using it for long distance trips or trips that include winter weather.

blonder•10h ago
I would counter your charging anecdote almost entirely with my anecdote. I have never had to worry about arriving at a destination without enough to make it to another supercharger, that worked great in 2022 when I got my model 3 and works great today. I have never had so much as a single issue with a supercharger not working or being out of service and not saying it on the car screen. I don't have any rebuttals for your other points: winter range stinks, and tires wear faster than gas equivalents. EVs really need a battery innovation to add another 100 estimated miles to really push them into the mainstream imo. If we can get to the 450ish range that would help a lot.
dmix•10h ago
BYD is probably the biggest factor here. Their sales were spiking in Europe and elsewhere even before the recent drama.

If I was a Tesla shareholder I'd be much more worried about that, as news cycles move on pretty fast while competition will only get stiffer.

Tesla is just lucky BYD is banned in places like Canada because the domestic car companies know they can't compete.

AlecSchueler•7h ago
But EV sales in general are up.
wigster•11h ago
the way Trump is heading and his rage vs Musk, EVs will probably be banned soon
jqpabc123•11h ago
It's pretty safe to say that after a decade of unfulfilled projections and promises, the Tesla EV fantasy is now a bust.

So now it's off to new fantasy --- robotaxi.

The problem with this fantasy --- ride hailing isn't nearly as profitable as auto manufacturing.

Half the world isn't going to ditch their autos in favor of robo rides any time soon. This is what it will take to justify Tesla's current outlandish stock price.

Uber P/E is about 20. Tesla P/E is around 170. Can Tesla ride hailing be 6 times bigger/more profitable than Uber in the near future? I personally don't think so.

leoqa•10h ago
I have been paying about (premium lost from rolling puts) 1k/month for the last 4 months to short Tesla. I made about 12k on the last dip so I’m profitable but I’m just waiting for the bubble to burst. Today I doubled down when it went up, hoping to one day see it fail.
cbeach•10h ago
Whereas on the other hand I've gained handsomely from holding Tesla stock for many years, and plan to hold it for many more years.

It feels good to support American-made sustainable technology that has revolutionised the electric car and battery storage markets.

I struggle to understand those who would short-sell Tesla, unless they have some kind of emotional hangup against Elon Musk or government efficiency?

Hamuko•10h ago
What exactly have you gained from holding?
cbeach•10h ago
I own stock that is worth many times what I paid for it, and any time I want to, I can exchange the stock for cash. Unless perhaps I missed something about how the stock market works?
TimorousBestie•10h ago
> I struggle to understand those who would short-sell Tesla, unless they have some kind of emotional hangup against Elon Musk or government efficiency?

It’s objectively clear that the company is in a bad market condition, and you don’t need to have an “emotional hangup against Elon Musk or government efficiency” to know it’s bad business to alienate your potential customer base and deliver shockingly bad public appearances.

If Ford’s CEO was stumbling-down drunk or higher than a kite at a presser, I’d short Ford too.

cbeach•10h ago
Musk was never a conventional squeeky-clean ultra-safe stage-managed CEO that speaks through a media team.

That didn't stop him from raising the value of $TSLA from a penny stock to one of the largest companies in the world.

With his initial investment, and with him as the product architect of the first Tesla vehicle (the Roadster), he transformed an academic project with no products to the world's most valuable automaker.

An automaker so valuable, it's worth more than Toyota, BYD, GM, VW, BMW, Mercedes, Ford and Honda COMBINED.

People have shorted $TSLA before because they underestimated Musk, and let their own personal affectations cloud their understanding of Tesla's potential, and Musk's singular genius.

ceejayoz•10h ago
> An automaker so valuable, it's worth more than Toyota, BYD, GM, VW, BMW, Mercedes, Ford and Honda COMBINED.

This doesn't give you the slightest bit of pause?

TimorousBestie•9h ago
It can’t; this is how meme stocks operate. If too many traders examine their motives and revert to trading rationally, the stock price corrects accordingly.
fossuser•10h ago
The silver lining is as long as these people exist and continue to be wrong (which seems like it’ll be forever given no amount of Tesla success gets them to update their position) there will be money to be made.
jqpabc123•9h ago
An automaker so valuable, it's worth more than Toyota, BYD, GM, VW, BMW, Mercedes, Ford and Honda COMBINED.

Yes. Wildly overvalued for an automaker that it has never accounted for more than 2% of light vehicles world wide --- and instead of the wild growth projections they sold to investors, sales over the last 2 years have actually declined.

Any "potential" here remains largely unrealized.

foogazi•4h ago
> I struggle to understand those who would short-sell Tesla, unless they have some kind of emotional hangup against Elon Musk

Wait, do you have an emotional hangup FOR Elon Musk ?

> or government efficiency?

Is this satire ?

Panzer04•10h ago
If robotaxis were commensurately cheap and available I'd happily dump my car. I don't see it happening for another decade or more, though.
water-data-dude•9h ago
I might do the same if they weren’t a privacy nightmare. The tech company running the robotaxi service would need to buck some Silicon Valley trends before I’d use their product
atonse•10h ago
> Half the world isn't going to ditch their autos in favor of robo rides any time soon.

I don't know. Take cities like Bangalore (India) for example. I don't live there but do occasionally visit family every couple of years. And I consistently hear a general sentiment of "I just take Uber because the traffic is insane. But the traffic is insane because of too many Ubers"

But in all of that sentiment, nobody's saying "I wish I could drive instead" – they're more than happy to have someone drive them around if it's cheap enough. That was true with Auto Rickshaws, and it's even more attractive in an air conditioned car.

If taxis get cheaper, people will use them in even more situations, like daily commutes. Why not?

And what do you mean by "EV Fantasy" – I get if you meant Robotaxi or self-driving fantasy. But there are hundreds of thousands of Teslas (maybe a million?) driving around the world isn't there? Are all these people imagining that they're driving a Tesla EV? Which part of it is a fantasy?

Spooky23•10h ago
The US isn't like that. The people with the money for the magic taxi are in the burbs.

The fantasy that any of this nonsense is a sustainable business, especially when the charismatic leader completely FUBARed his government hobby project and is biting the hand that feeds him. Tesla's biggest source of revenue is the US government.

popularonion•10h ago
Suburbs and commuter towns desperately need Robotaxi - there’s literally no other option. Public transit isn’t coming, Waymo isn’t coming, Uber and Lyft are shrinking

Even a US city of 100,000 people, it can be really tough or impossible to get an Uber - good luck getting a ride from the airport at 12:30 in the morning

Spooky23•8h ago
If you can't afford a car, time to migrate. The economics of the magic robot taxi aren't going to save you.
bryanlarsen•6h ago
Why do you say Waymo isn't coming? Waymo is already available in the suburbs of LA, and it seems clear that Waymo will be expanding to any US metro area that doesn't put roadblocks in their way.
foogazi•4h ago
How many people in a city of 100,000 are getting rides from the airport at 12:30 in the morning ?
AnimalMuppet•10h ago
Which part of Tesla EV is a fantasy? The part where the volume explodes enough to justify a P/E of 170 today.
fossuser•10h ago
The Model Y is literally the best selling car on earth across all categories and people on HN are still calling it a fantasy.

This is just driven by partisan anti-Elon sentiment.

jqpabc123•10h ago
The fantasy projected by Tesla and sold to investors was a growth rate of 20-30% per year.

The reality is Tesla has never accounted for more than 2% of light vehicle sales worldwide. And over the last 2 years; instead of spectacular growth, sales have actually declined.

hakunin•9h ago
To be fair to the people on HN, it wasn't them who made Elon partisan. It was Elon himself.
spwa4•8h ago
Exactly, this is 100% deserved, even self-inflicted, damage. Not nearly enough.
atonse•7h ago
Partisan or not, certain facts (like sales figures) should be treated as facts whether we like the person or not, right?
ahahahahah•8h ago
It's literally not, you're living in the past. While the model y was the best selling car in 2023, the RAV4 was the best selling car in 2024.
Aloisius•1h ago
It was the best selling car. It no longer is[1].

And of course, Tesla isn't even in the top 10 for top selling brands of cars. Only about 1 in 50 new cars being sold is a Tesla.

Their valuation is largely based on hype.

[1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/the-worlds-best-selling-car-is...

jqpabc123•10h ago
If taxis get cheaper, people will use them in even more situations, like daily commutes. Why not?

Sure --- if roborides are cheap enough and safe enough, more people will use them.

The immediate question for Tesla and their investors --- can they really provide "safe" robo rides using their current approach?

This is far from being proven since Tesla is only rated as Level 2 autonomy which according to Tesla itself, requires constant supervision. Placing passengers and the public in danger with inadequate technology is a textbook legal definition of negligence.

The longer term question; assuming they solve FSD --- is can they make tons of money from cheap rides? Enough to justify their current outlandish stock price.

cosgrove•10h ago
Can they really do it? Tesla is making steady progress and has reached a few new milestones recently.

They recently launched their Robotaxi service in Austin, and it seems to be as good as Waymo or better. https://youtu.be/RcaBZenrCCs

They also recently autonomously delivered a car to a customer’s apartment straight from the factory line. https://youtu.be/lRRtW16GalE

jqpabc123•10h ago
Still only classified as Level 2 autonomy --- which requires constant supervision. This is according to Tesla itself.

https://www.synopsys.com/blogs/chip-design/autonomous-drivin...

Hamuko•5h ago
Tesla also backs that up with actions since all of the robotaxis are supervised by a dude in the front seat that can abort the drive if the level 2 self-driving goes bonkers.
jqpabc123•4h ago
Supervision wasn't part of the original fantasy/sales pitch and calls into question their stated value proposition for competing with Uber and Waymo.
nodesocket•10h ago
Absurdly idiotic statement. Tesla has gone from 50k cars sold in 2015 to 1.78m in 2024. Their marketcap has increased from 31b to 1.3t in the same period. That’s not even factoring the potential growth of Optimis.

I bought a model Y dual motor in 2021 is it’s been hands down my best car ever. Almost zero maintenance. Yet more proof of never take stock advice from HN, in fact do the opposite in most circumstances. Elon derangement syndrome at its finest.

enslavedrobot•8h ago
>8 million Teslas have been manufactured
thisisit•5h ago
It seems you are not up to date on Bangalore (India). The unit economy of taxis has gotten out of hand. People now prefer bike taxis. Those were banned recently and reportedly that is causing even the Auto Rickshaw costs to spiral.

> If taxis get cheaper, people will use them in even more situations, like daily commutes.

This seems straight out of the Uber pitch from its early days. "Our total addressable market is the entire auto industry because people will prefer taxis over driving themselves". And a decade later where are we? Most ridesharing apps are shrinking day by day.

The unit cost of a taxi isn't sustainable in a long term. People might want to pay for someone to drive them around but that is an expensive proposition.

Robo taxis now seem to be selling the same dream. Cut out the driver and that will make rides cheaper. But deploying taxi is going to be a huge expenditure. This might be doable with VC money upfront and even cheap just like the early days of Uber. But in the long run same thing is going to happen. Once all competition is gone robotaxis are not going to be any cheaper. It will be back to square one.

seanmcdirmid•2h ago
> If taxis get cheaper, people will use them in even more situations, like daily commutes.

That was my life in Beijing until I moved back to the states 8+ years ago. Forget about even buying a car, where would you park it? The subway was an option, especially after line 10 opened which was basically one line to work but...it was always really crowded and I didn't like standing for an hour (loop lines aren't very direct).

But there were too many cars, to make it work I had to shift my working hours, so I would leave super early (~6 AM) and come home around 3PM. It definitely didn't feel sustainable but it worked out (now I WFH...and in LA I lived right next to my lab...so I still avoid driving).

robocat•2m ago
> Bangalore > Uber because the traffic is insane

Robotaxis can't deal with insane traffic, and would be disadvantaged when aggressive drivers learn how to trick robotaxis to give way submissively.

Some countries have highly developed road systems that are more predictable, and where drivers are more likely to cooperate rather than aggressively defect.

Hamuko•10h ago
Don't forget: they're also on the humanoid robot fantasy.
SilverBirch•10h ago
I'm not sure what you mean by Tesla's EV fantasy being a bust? In the last decade they've got from delivering 75k cars a year to delivering 1.8m cars a year. It's not a fantasy, it happened. Now, the stock price isn't based on the reality of the fundamental economics of a car company, but they didn't fail with EVs, they succeeded.
vel0city•10h ago
Robotaxi isn't even a new fantasy. In April 2019 Elon Musk said Model 3's would make their owners money participating in the autonomous ride-hailing fleet.
thinkingtoilet•10h ago
The decline has nothing to do with projections and promises and everything to do with Elon alienating a huge part of potential customers. I was someone who went from wanting a Tesla to never buying one as long as Elon own a single share in the company.
cbeach•10h ago
Weird to see people buy inferior cars on the basis that they cannot tolerate car company CEOs having different political opinions to their own.
fires10•10h ago
For some people it isn't 'just politics'. They feel threatened by potential loss of freedom and life. If it was just a disagreement on tax rates or some government spending it would be different. His views are against someone else's existence.
justinrubek•10h ago
Weird to see people downplay the significance of the degree of differing political opinions. This isn't a simple matter of disagreeing. I would be willing to bet that every single vehicle company CEO has drastically different takes on these things than I do. They stay out of the way, though.
thinkingtoilet•9h ago
1. Hondas are not inferior cars.

2. It's not about "different political opinions", it's far beyond that and to suggest so tells anyone reading your comment everything they need to know about you.

foogazi•4h ago
Why would I pay someone to screw me over ?
hearsathought•9h ago
> the Tesla EV fantasy is now a bust.

Tesla is still one of a handful of trillion dollar companies. Maybe it will be a bust, but it isn't one today.

> Uber P/E is about 20. Tesla P/E is around 170.

So the expectation is tesla will continue to grow at a significant rate while uber "stagnates".

> I personally don't think so.

Investors do. I'm surprised how well the stock is doing given the all the distractions. It certainly isn't trading like it is about to bust.

reaperducer•8h ago
It's pretty safe to say that after a decade of unfulfilled projections and promises, the Tesla EV fantasy is now a bust.

I guess historically, lots of companies have operated by selling dreams.

The real estate industry sells dreams of suburban utopias.

The fitness industry sells dreams of sexy good times.

The cola industry sells dreams of likability and friendship.

Apple sells dreams of in-crowd later-day eco-hipsterism.

Tesla sells… dunno. Maybe dreams of billionaire crypto-bro futurism?

As long as the company is worth $900B+, you're never going to convince its fans that they're wrong.

Even if the stockholders all lost everything, I think a significant portion will still think they were following the messiah, the same way that old ladies give their last three pennies to tele-vangelists while eating cat food off of paper plates.

ryandvm•8h ago
Can we please stop calling it "robotaxi"? There's a fucking person being paid to sit in the car, who honestly has to be even more bored and awkward feeling than an uber driver. It's about as robotic as a carnival ride with some guy being paid to maybe press a red button.

God, I would love to see an AMA from one of these guys that have to sit in a seat with their hands folded staring at the road 8 hours a day.

leesec•8h ago
You're skimming over the fact that the car is doing 99.999% of everything
ceejayoz•5h ago
Which means the safety driver is probably deeply bored and inattentive.
leesec•4h ago
Sure, we'll see in the data soon enough how safe it is
leesec•8h ago
Not sure what you're talking about. Model Y was best selling car in the world last two years. That's a bust?
submeta•11h ago
I am not gonna touch a Tesla again. Not because I didn’t like the product, but because of Elon. I‘m done with that brand.
monkeyelite•10h ago
Optimism used to be so high in this forum. People would call you a Luddite for questioning the stock price. I wonder if we could do a search to compare individuals change in sentiment from ~2018.
dfedbeef•10h ago
hmm I wonder what changed between 2018 and 2025
dfedbeef•10h ago
you're right tho :)
lesuorac•8h ago
Stock grew 1700% though in that time frame.

You knock out a factor of 10 and the PE is 17 which is much more in line with other companies have.

eknkc•10h ago
The Model Y refresh happened this quarter and they basically had no deliveries for a month or something. Probably had an impact.

I'm not sure how this goes in the long term though, likely to worse. For example BYD sold almost twice the number of cars in the same period and they don't seem to be slowing down.

nine_k•10h ago
I'm afraid that customers are more price-sensitive now, and a BYD definitely can sell for less than a Tesla.
bigtones•10h ago
BYD is definitely slowing down. They are cutting prices to increase domestic demand and have cut back worker shifts at their Chinese factories from three to two per day.
baggachipz•6h ago
That was last quarter.
arghandugh•10h ago
Remember when Elon cornered his employee and flashed his cock at her and begged her for sex and when she refused he offered to buy her a horse because he’s a shameless degenerate?
gwd•10h ago
That's the kind of thing you don't post without a reference.
arghandugh•10h ago
You can use the “internet” to search “Elon + horse” and “self serve” your curiosity.
ceejayoz•10h ago
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/20/1100356233/elon-musk-sexual-m...

> The woman says Musk asked her friend to perform sex acts in exchange for him buying her a horse. Earlier, the flight attendant had reportedly been encouraged to learn how to give massages.

> The flight attendant filed a sexual misconduct claim against Musk, and SpaceX paid her $250,000 in 2018 as part of a settlement that's bound by non-disclosure and non-disparagement clauses, Insider reported.

t1234s•10h ago
Is there any downside to buying a used Tesla directly from Tesla? They sort of have a refurbished apple store vibe and give you an extra 1yr warranty on top of the existing warranty.
AndroidKitKat•8h ago
I bought a used Model 3 w/ FSD from Tesla and didn't regret it one bit. The car was not perfect (paint chips, windshield nicks, etc. normal car wear), but that comes with used car territory. I just went with Tesla directly since I've read that used car lots don't always do the best job accurately describing the software capabilities of the car (Intel or Ryzen / HW3 or HW4 / FSD outright or FSD subscription or not). If you're just interested in the car and not any of the software, then I'd go with whatever can get you a good price.

I ended up selling the Model 3 last November and getting a new Model Y when they had a 0% APR + FSD transfer promotion running. If you're interested in FSD try to find a newer Model Y (mid 2023ish) or any refresh Model 3 for HW4.

ChrisArchitect•10h ago
Related:

Tesla sales drop for fifth month in a row in Europe

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44416780

spacemadness•9h ago
And yet the stock won’t drop and financial news is reporting it as “deliveries dropped less than feared.” There are no adults left in the world.