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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

https://metalhearf.fr/posts/chatcontrol-wants-your-private-messages/
333•Metalhearf•1h ago

Comments

immibis•1h ago
This will never not be in the news, will it? I feel like it's been continuously for the past 10-15 years, under various names.
jjice•1h ago
Just need to pass it once, unfortunately. And despite all the talk against it, they get a partial fresh start to the general public every time one of these is proposed.
dekken_•1h ago
The IRA quote to Thatcher comes to mind
bigyabai•1h ago
Honestly, I fully expect that the scanning method is already implemented and used. The US has intervened with some pretty deep surveillance in the past (ie. Canada Sihk killing) and doesn't seem to need permission to get it.

Sounds to me like the EU is looking to get a more formal approval to act on data they already have.

EasyMark•25m ago
The people that want this to happen, really really really want it to happen. They are never going to give up, so people need to remain vigilent.
haolez•1h ago
I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.
thinkingtoilet•1h ago
Agreed. In this case, there needs to be some sort of 'privacy bill of rights'. Something fundamental where any law like this cannot be passed.
quotemstr•57m ago
Laws don't stop men with guns. Men with guns stop men with guns. Laws not enforced and rights not protected don't matter.

As the old saying goes, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

mapontosevenths•42m ago
> Laws don't stop men with guns. Men with guns stop men with guns.

Prove it. Every statistic I've ever seen shows the exact opposite of this to be true.

layer8•54m ago
This exists. But courts have to balance conflicting rights, so there is always room for interpretation.
contravariant•1h ago
The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise.

Which is a bit complicated here, as the EU has no real constitution and this 'law' (really a regulation) is a blatant violation of the constitutions of countries that did choose to establish secrecy of correspondence.

NooneAtAll3•1h ago
isn't constitution easily changed by parlament?
asmor•1h ago
Usually not "easily". I know Germany requires 2/3 majority.
fsckboy•47m ago
fwiw, amending the US constitution generally requires a 2/3 majority in both houses of congress to propose the amendment, and then further ratification by 3/4 of the states make the amendment law. it's a fairly long process, and amendments sometime get bogged down and die in the 2nd phase.

(there is another process which calls for a convention, but such a convention would have broad powers to change many things and so far the "two sides" (US rules tilt toward two parties rather than more) have been too scared of what might happen to do that)

eagleislandsong•1h ago
> The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise

And the willingness and ability to enforce it. The current iteration of ChatControl is pushed by Denmark, which is at present the President of the Council of the European Union. The Danish Constitution itself enshrines the right to privacy of communication [0], but this is not stopping Denmark from wanting to ratify ChatControl anyway.

[0]: https://danskelove.dk/grundloven/72

raverbashing•49m ago
Yes but unfortunately courts are mostly reactive, not proactive

Sometimes there are some mechanisms to block unconstitutional (or other regulation) laws from passing but they're limited

Not sure how that would apply at the EU level or even at the Danish level

reliabilityguy•15m ago
> Yes but unfortunately courts are mostly reactive, not proactive

I think it’s always the case, no? Unless the unconstitutional law is approved, there is nothing to dispute in court.

rapind•35m ago
> but this is not stopping Denmark from wanting to ratify ChatControl anyway.

What the TLDR of the motivation behind this? Is it just politicians playing to their base (think of the children) or corporate lobbying. or religion, etc?

Seems to me that the negatives of passing something like this are super obvious and dystopian.

thatguy0900•32m ago
If I was leading another western nation I would be looking at the right wing takeover of the US government in terror.
eagleislandsong•23m ago
I suspect it's a mix of many Danish politicians' own authoritarian tendencies/ambitions and corporate lobbying, though I have no proof for the latter when it comes to ChatControl specifically.

Generally speaking, there is a lot of dark money in Danish politics, and the EU has repeatedly flagged Denmark as a country lacking in transparency with regards to corporate lobbying: https://www.altinget.dk/artikel/eu-kritik-af-danmark-puster-...

Generally speaking, the Danish government also tends to behave in authoritarian ways. E.g., Denmark has wilfully violated EU regulations on data retention for many, many years. In 2021, a Danish court ruled that the Danish Ministry of Justice could continue its mass surveillance practices even though they were (and still are) illegal under EU law: https://www.information.dk/indland/2021/06/justitsministerie...

Currently Denmark is also trying to leverage its position as the President of the Council of the EU to legalise, on a EU-wide level, the form of data retention that Denmark has been illegally practising: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa...

reliabilityguy•12m ago
Interesting. I am not expert on politics of Denmark, so my question is: is this push universal across political parties or it’s a feature of a specific political block that rules for the past X years and consistently worked in this direction?
okanat•1h ago
EU has the Charter of Fundamental rights which is a part of the Treaty of Lisbon which is the constitutional basis of EU: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_Fundamental_Right...

In the charter, the protection of personal data and privacy is a recognized right. So chat control is also probably against the EU law.

zamadatix•54m ago
I'm not familiar with EU law, but reading Title II article 7 and 8 makes me feel this could be an optimistic interpretation of what the Treaty of Lisbon guarantees. I'm sure the supporters of chat control would love to argue something like "ChatControl respects the private communications of an individual by protecting how the data is processed to ensure only the legitimate basis of processing the data is incurred by the law" in court.

I would hope the EU courts would disagree, but I'm not sure if anyone can say until it's tested directly.

chmod775•42m ago
Even the EU council's legal service thinks the law as-proposed is probably incompatible with Article 7 and 8:

> The CLS concludes that, in the light of the case law of the Court of Justice at this stage, the regime of the detection order, as currently provided for by the proposed Regulation with regard to interpersonal communications, constitutes a particularly serious limitation to the rights to privacy and personal data protection enshrined in Article 7 and 8 of the Charter.

https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-8787-2023-I...

Aloisius•16m ago
Both the right to privacy and the right to protection of personal data appear to have exemptions that seem to permit this.

The right to private communications was modified by the ECHR to give an exemption for prevention of crime/protection of morals/etc.[1] and the right to protection of personal data exempts any legitimate basis laid down by law[2].

[1] https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/7-respect-privat...

[2] https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/8-protection-per...

kypro•1h ago
I've commented this elsewhere, but rights in the US are generally much more absolute than here in Europe.

For example, in the EU you technically have the right to freedom of expression, but you can also be arrested if you say something that could offend someone.

Similarly rights to privacy are often ignored whenever a justification can be made that it's appropriate to do so.

I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but here in the UK you don't even have a right to remain silent because the government added a loophole so that if you're arrested in a UK airport they can arbitrarily force you to answer their questions and provide passwords for any private devices. For this reason you often here reports of people being randomly arrested in UK airports, and the government does this deliberately so they can violate your rights.

realo•41m ago
"... expression, but you can also be arrested if you say something that could offend someone. ..."

You probably mean hate speech.

We have laws like that too in Canada. It is a good thing.

happyopossum•26m ago
It all depends who’s defining “hate”. The people you like who are in charge today won’t be there in 20 years, and if any kind of extremism leaks in to society, you could find yourself unable to advocate for your beliefs without getting arrested.
hellojesus•26m ago
How on earth are hate speech laws a good thing? Or did I miss a /s?
DoingIsLearning•1h ago
Plenty of EU states already have a constitution in which this proposal would be de facto unconstitutional.

The issue is what is the European Commission willing to do in order to guarantee that fat contract check goes to Palantir or Thorn or whoever has the best quid pro quo of the day.

This is not Stasi this is Tech billionaires playing kings and buying the EC and Europol for pennies on the dollar and with it the privacy of virtually every citizen of zero interest for law enforcement or agencies.

pjmlp•1h ago
As shown on the other side of Atlantic that is worthless when no one upholds the constitution.
Imustaskforhelp•49m ago
I think of constitution as a contract between the citizens and the state and the (judiciary?)

Like, constitution both defines the rights of citizens and the limits of those rights and the same goes for the states.

I feel as if the creators of constitutions think that it is a set of checks and balances...

Just as if how a citizen violates something written in the constitution, the state can punish it.

In the same manner, I believe that the constitution thought that if the state violates some constitutional right of citizen, then citizens can point that out and (punish?) the state as the legitimacy of state is through that constitution which they might be breaking...

I concur (fancy word for believe which I wanted to share lol) you are talking about america. The thing is, revolutions are often messy and so much things are happening in america that I think that people are just overwhelmed and have even forgotten all the stuff happening in the past... Like tarrifs were huge thing, then epstein news then this I think autism thing by trump.

Like, the amount of political discourse is happening less and idk, oh shit, just remembered the uh person deporting thing which was illegal which was done anyway

If these things happened in isolation, they would all have huge actions against govt. but they are happening back to back and so everyone's just kinda silent I think, frankly I believe overwhelmed.

I believe that just as in nepal, in america everyone is whining on social media but nobody's taking action. Nepal blocked social media and so people in nepal were kinda forced to take action irl and it worked kinda nice in the end tbh

So maybe its social media which is enabling this thing.... which is funny to me as I am doing the same thing right now lol

All for sweet internet points tho.

gameman144•26m ago
> I concur (fancy word for believe which I wanted to share lol) you are talking about america.

Just a heads up but concur means "agree", not "believe"

DangitBobby•19m ago
A large portion of the population either does not believe or does not mind the violations of our constitution to achieve their desired outcomes. As an American, it came as a surprise to me that we do not, in fact, have broadly shared values about our system of governance. This year has been a devastating blow to my confidence in our democracy and the ability of people to govern themselves generally.
frumplestlatz•12m ago
The thing I find most interesting about your reply is how it demonstrates that we live in wildly subjective realities.
quotemstr•59m ago
> The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise.

Constitutions don't enforce themselves. The US constitution has a crystal clear right to bear arms but multiple jurisdictions ignore it and multiple supreme court rulings and make firearm ownership functionally impossible anyway. Free speech regulations have, thankfully, been more robust.

The only thing that stops bad things happening is a critical mass of people who believe in the values the constitution memorializes and who have enough veto power to stop attempts to erode these values.

The US has such a critical mass, the gun debate notwithstanding. Does the EU have enough people who still believe in freedom?

fsckboy•55m ago
i think making your argument on free speech grounds would be stronger
quotemstr•54m ago
How so? My point is that US constitutional protections on firearm ownership have undeniably eroded. The presence of text on the page did not prevent this erosion. I'm using gun rights as an example of a situation in which text granting a right becomes irrelevant if people stop believing in the values behind the text.

People do believe in freedom of speech in the US, thankfully, even if they've stopped defending gun rights in some places.

EU free speech protections are in the same position gun rights are in the US, and for surprisingly similar reasons.

fsckboy•42m ago
when you are talking to a european audience, they tend to be in favor of gun control so they don't care about erosion of those rights (like the people in the US who also favor eroding them, wording of the rules be damned)

HN is to a large extent a popularity contest, and people here are more in favor of free speech than guns. the US record on protecting free speech is very good.

dmitrygr•39m ago
> you are talking to a european audience, they tend to be in favor of gun control so they don't care about erosion of those rights

You have accidentally properly identified the european problem and precisely the reason that chat control will pass: shortsightedness. If people only rise up to protect rights "they need", soon no rights will be left.

hellojesus•39m ago
Most of the erosion is done through court challenges.

Historically, courts have maintained that legislation is pursued under "good faith". This was the justification for not overturning ACA on the grounds of it being an unconstitutional tax: the lawmakers didn't mean to make it an unapportioned tax, even though it effectively is, so it's okay yall. Washington St just did this with income taxes on capital gains in direct violation of their state constitution a year or two ago.

Where I live, you cannot open carry. That is a direct violation of 2A, but the courts have said it's okay baby because it's not an undue burden to pay a fee and waste a day of your life. Pure nonsense. Just change the constitution for goodness sake.

rsynnott•54m ago
For practical purposes the EU does have a constitution, it's just a messy collection of treaties rather than a single codified constitution (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitu... for why).
mtillman•1h ago
I'm convinced the people suggesting this type of thing are influenced or even compromised by their constituent's enemies and NOT the result of poor education on the topic.

This policy for example would be most helpful to enemies to the EU. It would lower the cost of acquiring the data for China and Russia as it allows them to mass acquire data in transmission without incurring the cost of local operations. The easiest system in the world to hack is that of a policy maker.

eagleislandsong•1h ago
> It would lower the cost of acquiring the data for China and Russia

Yes, it would lower such barriers for countries that are commonly seen today as Europe's adversaries. But in this case, the U.S. (or rather, U.S. organisations and corporations) might be the primary bad actor pushing for ChatControl. See e.g.:

Thorn (organization) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(organization)

"Thorn works with a group of technology partners who serve the organization as members of the Technology Task Force. The goal of the program includes developing technological barriers and initiatives to ensure the safety of children online and deter sexual predators on the Internet. Various corporate members of the task force include Facebook, Google, Irdeto, Microsoft, Mozilla, Palantir, Salesforce Foundation, Symantec, and Twitter.[7] ... Netzpolitik.org and the investigative platform Follow the Money criticize that "Thorn has blurred the line between advocacy for children’s rights and its own interest as a vendor of scanning software."[11][12] The possible conflict of interest has also been picked up by Balkan Insight,[13] Le Monde,[14] and El Diario.[15] A documentary by the German public-service television broadcaster ZDF criticizes Thorn’s influence on the legislative process of the European Union for a law from which Thorn would profit financially.[16][17] A move of a former member of Europol to Thorn has been found to be maladministration by the European Ombudsman Emily O'Reilly.[18][19]"

Additionally, it would not surprise me at all if Palantir is lobbying for this either. Many EU countries, like Germany and Denmark, have already integrated Palantir's software into the intelligence, defence, and policing arms of their governments.

But at the end of the day, while it is convenient to blame external actors like U.S. corporations, ultimately the blame lies solely on the shoulders of European politicians. People in positions of power will tend to seek more, and I'm sure European politicians are more than happy to wield these tools for their own gain regardless of whether Palantir or Thorn is lobbying them.

naijaboiler•42m ago
you have left out how it can be used to monitor violation of corporate copyright materials. And what it means for silencing political speech is enormous.
NoMoreNicksLeft•1h ago
There are no solutions to that which wouldn't sound absurd. But if you could get past absurdity...

Politicians should agree to to be executed if they lose an election. Only those willing to risk their lives should be allowed to legislate. This also gives the voters the option of punishing those who pass onerous laws at the next election.

If you need extra zing, this would also apply to recall elections, so they could even be punished early.

raincole•53m ago
Yeah let's ensure only the craziest, most desperate for power type to be the regulators.

Hitler knew if he had lost, he would have been executed. Didn't stop him from going war.

inglor_cz•39m ago
One could argue that Putin won't stop the current war against Ukraine for the very same reason. He is obsessed with Gaddafi's undignified end in a ditch and cannot be seen as weak.

The GP's idea is very bad. Quite to the contrary, losing power should not come with disastrous personal consequences.

nathan_compton•44m ago
I think it would be better if they agree to be executed if they win the election, after serving their term.

Maybe a less extreme version of this is that if you become president you are stripped of all property and become the ward of the state after your term is over, enter a monastery sort of situation, for the rest of your life.

gmuslera•1h ago
If only we could show them how this kind of things may go wrong. I don't know, the case of some leader of a nation they are having trouble with, abusing of a similar access with their data.

But they will probably think that is only bad when others do it to them.

mapontosevenths•45m ago
> If only we could show them how this kind of things may go wrong.

We can. This has already happened with the fairly recent SALT TYPHOON hacks. China (ostensibly) abused lawful wiretapping mechanisms to spy on American (and other) citizens and politicians. The news at the time wasn't always explicit about the mechanism, but that's what happened.

China wouldn't have been able to do this if those mechanisms didn't exist in the first place.

brabel•31m ago
Wait, isn’t that the law working exactly as planned?
delusional•52m ago
> prevent them from being pushed over and over

Solve the problem it's trying to solve, then it won't be proposed again.

iLoveOncall•44m ago
The problem it's trying to solve is mass surveillance...
delusional•31m ago
You mean like the mass surveillance already implemented by Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, and Amazon?

That's already here. I think you should consider that this law might be aiming at some other goal.

happyopossum•14m ago
> You mean like the mass surveillance already implemented by Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, and Amazon?

No, GP is referring to mass collection and analysis of all of your communications. Google, Apple, et. all don’t have that capability today.

Hell, apple can’t even read my text messages, nor do they know I’m writing this - and I’m doing it on an iPhone.

RajT88•6m ago
You only believe that because you have chosen to believe it.

Take Facebook end-to-end encrypted messages for example. There are certain links it won't let you send, enough though it is supposedly E2EE. (I've seen it in situations like mentioning the piratebay domain name, which it tries to auto-preview and then fails. Hacking related websites as well I've seen the issue with.)

It likes to pretend it is a mysterious error, but if you immediately send a different link, it sends just fine. I don't use chat apps much these days, so I'm not sure if others see similar behavior, but I'd wager some do. Facebook is about the least trustworthy provider I'm likely to use, FWIW, so I expect a certain amount of smoke and mirrors from them.

brabel•16m ago
The motivation in Denmark was some big cases where organized crime was only caught due to a huge hacking operation where the police was able to monitor communication on the apps commonly used by the criminals. That allowed them to take very dangerous people off the streets and now they want to do more of that, more easily. I think the discussion can never be in terms of absolutes. If your family was murdered by some criminal that was never caught earlier , but could have been if the police had access to their chats, would you still be against it? We need to remember that we’re making that decision for some future victim if we do agree that this will assist the police effectively. The other side says the police will undoubtedly abuse their powers. In which case how does the results compare?? If you think the answer is easy, one way or another, you are definitely wrong.
tomkarho•29m ago
The only way I see to prevent the constant pushing is that every single time some council or committee presents something like this every single of one of their private communication gets leaked for everyone to peruse at their leisure from whatsapp to bank statements.

They want to erode people's privacy? Let them walk their talk first and see how that goes.

Alejandro9R•28m ago
I like this idea frankly. Where are the hacktivists when we need them?
goneri•21m ago
You can become an "hacktivist" by taking 15 minutes of your time to write an email to your MEP.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/home

1gn15•13m ago
I think "hacktivist" here means hacking into the politician's inboxes and leaking the contents, like "politicians want to do this to you; let's see how they like it when it's done to them" sort of thing.
ddalex•9m ago
No, you silly man, the politicians are protected from this law, this is just for the plebs.
simianparrot•9m ago
The only real option is to get your country to leave the EU. An unelected cabal of people making sweeping decisions for countless member states isn't democratic, so yeet it while you can.
daemin•1h ago
I was just thinking that if something like this ever does get through and become law, then creating open-source alternatives which do not obey these laws would be quite trivial. What would not be trivial would be deciding where to host the servers and source code, and how to actually get this software onto people's devices.

What country would be safe for hosting code that does this that people would also trust in general? Would this be hosted on the dark web or would someone actually be brave enough to host it on their private machines? Would there be DNS that could point to this?

Then how would you install the software? You'd need a way to side-load it, which means you'd want a way to sign it. Which means either adding a new root signing authority or being able to have an existing root authority sell you a signing certificate and not revoke it.

You kind of quickly end up in some weird dystopian cyberpunk setting thinking all of this through.

bigyabai•1h ago
> You kind of quickly end up in some weird dystopian cyberpunk setting thinking all of this through.

The most dystopian concept out of everything you mentioned is still "you can't install unsigned software" to me.

simonw•1h ago
Good luck preventing people from loading up a web page that runs a pure JavaScript (or WebAssembly) implementation of common cryptography algorithms and lets people copy and paste each other encrypted messages.
roywiggins•54m ago
Chat Control wants to require on-device scanning, so if this becomes common they can move to mandating scanning at the OS or browser level as well.
__loam•38m ago
Good luck convincing American tech to take on a liability like this. There's a reason big tech is moving to e2e encryption like Signal and it isn't user privacy. Telling governments to fuck off because you don't have the data limits liability.
walterbell•59m ago
EU CRA disallows shipment of non-accredited binaries in "critical" software categories.
__loam•46m ago
Okay so are they going to block foreign github repos? This seems totally unenforceable.
roywiggins•38m ago
You just mandate the scanning into the OS, then mandate what OSes hardware is allowed to boot.
brap•27m ago
You underestimate the power EU believes it has
ceayo•19m ago
> believes
walterbell•21m ago
Subset of industry feedback on EU CRA, https://github.com/orcwg/cra-hub/blob/main/product-definitio...
dcanelhas•1h ago
I wonder where platforms like slack would land in all of this, and how would they go about akeeping people from just using their own encryption e.g. pgp over unencrypted channels? Is public key cryptography too weak to matter?
naijaboiler•41m ago
This legislation makes every digital communication open to being policed at the source. It is far too overreaching and too rife for abuse.
palata•15m ago
Slack is not end-to-end encrypted and belongs to a US company. So there is no need for ChatControl there: the US government already has access to everything that is written on Slack.
Bender•11m ago
I believe they are referring to using GPG to encrypt data before putting it into Slack, much like using the out of band OTR. In that case all the data shared between those using GPG or OTR would only be accessible to those with the right out of band keys. There are probably not a lot of people doing this, or not enough for governments to care. I do this in IRC using irssi-otr [1].

[1] - https://irssi.org/documentation/help/otr/

varispeed•5m ago
You are already looking for workarounds like people struggling under authoritarian regimes.

This is completely unacceptable.

astroflection•1h ago
Governments should be transparent and the people should be opaque. Any government that attempts to make things otherwise looses legitimacy.
quotemstr•57m ago
Or as someone put it, "People shouldn't fear the government. The government should fear the people."

I feel like we've lost the vocabulary we ought to be using to talk about the legitimacy and role of the state. More people need to read J.S. Mill (and probably Hobbes.) Even today, works by both are surprisingly good reads and embed a lot of thoughtful and timeless wisdom.

tremon•21m ago
But isn't the government fearing the people exactly why they're relentlessly pushing ChatControl?
EasyMark•28m ago
> Governments should be transparent and the people should be opaque.

I'm going to add this to my repertoire since it's a lot more concise than most of my rantings on the topic

ivape•1h ago
Can anyone try to explain to be how this is not a strain of mind-reading and thought crime? I mean, sure, we’re several decades away from the big event where society will adjudicate thought-crime, but this appears to be one of the first skirmishes.
brap•25m ago
Thought crime has been illegal in the EU/UK for quite some time. But only a certain kind of thoughts
DoingIsLearning•59m ago
This is (mostly) about Tech companies' money, namely:

- Palantir Technologies

- 'not-for-profit' Thorn

> The Commission’s failure to identify the list of experts as falling within the scope of the complainant’s public access request constitutes maladministration. [0]

> ... the complainant contended that the precision rate of technologies like those developed by the organisation are often overestimated. It is therefore essential that any technical claims made by the organisation concerned are made public as this would facilitate the critical assessment of the proposal. [1]

> The Commission presented a proposal on preventing and combating child sexual abuse, looking in particular at detecting child pornography. In this context, it has mentioned that support could be provided by the software of the controversial American company Palantir... [2]

> Is Palantir’s failure to register on the Transparency Register compatible with the Commission’s transparency commitments? [2]

(Palantir only entered the Transparency Registry in March 2025 despite being a multi million vendor for Europol and European Agencies for more than a decade)

> No detailed records exist concerning a January meeting between European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and the CEO of controversial US data analytics firm Palantir [3]

> Kutcher and CEO Julie Cordua held several meetings with EU officials from 2020 to 2023 - before the former stepped down from his role - including European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, Home Affairs Commissioner Ylva Johansson, and European Parliament President Roberta Metsola.[4]

> The Ombudsman further concluded that Thorn had indeed influenced the legislative process of the CSAM regulation. “It is clear, for example, from the Commission’s impact assessment that the input provided by Thorn significantly informed the Commission’s decision-making. The public interest in disclosure is thus self-evident. [4]

> EU Ombudsman Emily O’Reilly has announced that she has opened an investigation into the transfer of two former Europol officials to the chat control surveillance tech provider Thorn. [5]

[0] https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/decision/en/176658

[1] https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/recommendation/en/179395

[2] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2024-00016...

[3] https://www.euractiv.com/news/commission-kept-no-records-on-...

[4] https://www.euronews.com/next/2024/07/18/european-ombudsman-...

[5] https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chat-control-eu-ombudsman-l...

randomNumber7•58m ago
What would prevent me from writing my own program to do something simple like sending encrypted messages? Or just emails...
giancarlostoro•53m ago
Good luck being a DOD contractor overseas, wtf?
__loam•48m ago
Good luck having a bank account
thewebguyd•33m ago
They'll push the scanning to the OS level, mandate that the OS does it. Hence the seemingly coordinated effort with Google on the sideloading changes, and enforcing play protect, etc.

Like the TPM & Microsoft scare when TPM first started arriving in hardware, and we all thought it would be used to lock out other OSes. Only it's for real this time.

layer8•21m ago
The proposed regulation only applies to publicly available services, and only binds service providers, not end users. There is nothing preventing you from sending encrypted emails, just as there is nothing preventing you from pasting encrypted messages into WhatsApp or storing and sharing encrypted files in Dropbox.
Bender•6m ago
What would prevent me from writing my own program to do something simple like sending encrypted messages?

Nothing. That is, nothing until your application becomes popular. I will keep encrypting my emails and they can pound sand once legislation for this makes it to my country.

croes•57m ago
I guess they don’t know you can encrypt files before you send them. They don’t even have to look like encrypted files.
roywiggins•48m ago
Chat Control imagines your device being required to scan and report on all your plaintext.
vessenes•55m ago
This was precisely some of the motivation behind pushing RCS onto Apple. The RCS spec has a termination point between providers -- a great spot to read some data for telecom providers and government agencies. Despite this, RCS is called "End to End" all the time. It's not. Use Signal or iMessage, depending on your security choices in iCloud.
happyopossum•10m ago
RCS is not called “end to end” by anyone - even Apple and Google explicitly state it’s not currently E2E encrypted. Apple has pledged to add e2ee to RCS on iPhones but they’re never claimed it’s that way today.

They go out of their way to warn you it’s not the same level of security as iMessage.

hn-ifs•55m ago
Out of interest, what happens in the case of say an open source chat app developed outside the EU. Let's add that the developers are anonymous too, like truecrypt. What power does this legislation have then?
layer8•42m ago
App stores that operate in the EU are subject to EU law, and can be forced to remove noncompliant apps.
happyopossum•8m ago
Ahh, but they’ve already mandated side loading to piss off apple! Bit of an own-goal there.
roywiggins•40m ago
They can just mandate it at the OS level. I don't know if the proposal envisions that already, but if it becomes popular surely that would come next.
nisten•55m ago
If you are a smart kid in europe learn to vibecode XChacha20 & ed25519 encryption keys for you and your friends to chat with so you can go tell your incompetent government to go fuck themselves.
i_am_a_squirrel•31m ago
but then they'll make this a crime
EasyMark•25m ago
exactly, this is just step 1
giancarlostoro•54m ago
Then they're not encrypted apps.
lovelearning•52m ago
Is CSA really that widespread in Europe that everyone's chat messages have to be monitored? And if it is that widespread, shouldn't they try to address it socially to prevent CSA as much as possible rather than try to catch just the subset of tech-savvy abusers, that too after they've already committed CSA?
quotemstr•39m ago
Everyone in this debate understands that CSA is a pretext. Nothing is going to make any sense to you if you think ChatControl is an earnest and sincere to fight CSA in particular.

The ultimate goal is for computers to run only authorized programs and to license and monitor development tools like the Soviets monitored typewriters.

SamuelAdams•37m ago
It’s not about CSA, it’s about illegal content. And laws change all the time.

For example, an individual can generate AI images of Hollywood actors using Stable Diffusion and a decently powerful computer. Said individual had the right to share those images online with a community.

Now however the sharing and distribution of said images is considered illegal in my USA state.

So, are the images said individual created and shared three years ago subject to prosecution? Even if the law went into effect 3 months ago?

thewebguyd•36m ago
Of course not, it's just a pretense for passing this law because its political suicide to instead say "We don't want to do any actual police work and instead want to create a massive surveillance state and monitor everything you say and do so we can better control our populations."

CSAM is just the excuse, as it is with any other laws of this nature in the past.

antoniojtorres•35m ago
Agree completely. These laws are either a wedge for broader surveillance or a massive compromise on everyone else’s rights to catch a subset of a subset of users.
Joel_Mckay•43m ago
EU political critters discover math doesn't work the way they feel it should work for them... State mandated retardation is not progressive policy. lol =3
lifestyleguru•38m ago
They'll push for it repeatedly until they succeed and then it will be irreversibile.
sys32768•36m ago
They want the power to arrest you for your private thought crimes too.
EasyMark•26m ago
and keep them forever to use them against you in the future, if you become a "problem"
rvz•30m ago
Sounds like a complete tyrannical dystopian hell hole to live in.

But nevermind, We love the EU! /s

EasyMark•30m ago
My answer to "think of the children" is "I am thinking of the children"

* of their rights to privacy

* their right to live in a democracy

* the value of warrant based search vs nazi SS style

* I want them to enjoy at -least- as much privacy as I currently enjoy

* I don't want rando creeps reading their personal messages and keeping them forever, there's a reason memory fades, it lets us grow as people

mnls•25m ago
The fact that EU politicians exclude themselves from the ChatControl is all you need to know about this.
justapassenger•14m ago
Source on that?
bapak•4m ago
From TFA

> the proposed legislation includes exemptions for government accounts used for “national security purposes, maintaining law and order or military purposes”. Convenient.

meta-level•24m ago
Can anyone explain to me what keeps anyone who doesn't want to be monitored from just sending PNGs (or similar) containing messages encrypted in each pixels LSBs?

Doesn't all that just force everyone who has something to hide to use something else, less obvious?

1gn15•12m ago
Probably friction. Will you be able to convince your friends to do that?
happyopossum•9m ago
Presumably the distribution of an app that facilitates that would become illegal as well.
apexalpha•18m ago
Ugh, I hate this but literally no one is paying attention.

Its hard because everytime this gets defeated all the EUSSR people just wait a year and try again…

gverrilla•16m ago
The USA wants this to remain a monopoly.
josefritzishere•15m ago
Privacy for me and not for thee?
netbioserror•15m ago
Unenforceable tripe. Do not comply.
varispeed•6m ago
To me this is simply an act of terrorism. People who are behind those proposals should be charged and face trial.

There is no excuse for this and it is a stain on EU history for even letting this go so far.

Anyone proposing this should not only be sacked but also referred to de-radicalisation / anti-terrorism programme in their country and forever banned from holding any kind of public sector office.

There is no excuse.

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