Not suggesting that I don't say stuff on autopilot sometimes but for many people, it's their only mode of operation. They never actually think about anything from first principles. Their whole approach to language is just chaining catchphrases together. It's how a toddler thinks; it seems like many people never moved past that stage of development.
- Lots of Haiku around, many mistakes unless process is very clear - Some Sonnets, still do mistakes but can adapt - Some Opus, able to improvise and think outside the box.
But even the Human Opus/Mythos are hilariously wrong sometimes.
I don't understand what we're setting the record straight on. This is the core point of dispute, and the author just blazes past it to focus on other things. I'm glad to hear "stochastic parrot" isn't intended as an insult, and I agree that it's not right to think of LLMs as a box with a little homunculus inside replying to you. But to me it seems obvious that LLMs are not repeating patterns without comprehension and do understand what they are saying; otherwise they would not be capable of doing things they routinely do.
So this seems obvious to you, and yet to many others, it is equally obvious that LLMs can/could do the things they routinely do without any meaningful sense of "understanding".
There are people who argue semantics, that we can call the pattern matching that LLMs do “understanding”, or the moronic “how do we know that’s isn’t all we do” but for the normal use of comprehension, LLMs at a fundamental level don’t.
So stochastic parrots could indeed be a good description of LLMs. But I think that she meant it as a diminishing term (against the technology) which is pointless. Probably more of a reaction against SV tech bros than more nuanced interpretations.
I remember being angry about this situation when I first saw it on social media, until I read the details: This person submitted a list of demands to her employer and said that if they weren’t met, she quit. Google wasn’t going to meet her demands so they considered it acceptance of her resignation. There has been a movement trying to debate whether it was a firing or resignation ever since.
The original paper they published gets recirculated every year or two as some landmark history of AI safety, but as other commenters have noted it wasn’t really a great paper nor was it groundbreaking at the time. If not for the controversy surrounding the resignation/firing (depending on your POV), I don’t think it would have been notable.
She was part of the "Ethical Artificial Intelligence Team" of what was then, and still is now, one of the corporations World wide spending the largest amount of resources precisely on using AI commercially.
I think she's since since lost a lot of her allure, especially when she didn't change her mind when the facts about the AI water usage changed 1000x
Meanwhile, the paper has 2 points of criticism towards AI. 1 is a bunch of carbon consumption complaints assuming NVIDIA cards with coal-fired power, while a lot of effort at contemporary Google went towards getting TPUs running on green power. I suspect this was what people wanted to object to, a lot of effort went into those green power projects and she was just denying it. The complaint might seem prophetic now but it was not true about Google then.
The other criticism was about which language the LLMs use, they average the input data of normal humans instead of talking the way the paper author thinks they should talk. I'm less inclined to think people objected strongly to this given the zeitgeist at the time, it was probably people who worked on the green energy projects and were pissed off that their contributions were ignored.
In her previous interviews, I've found her assertion that LLMs aren't useful and will never be good at anything totally uncompelling. Also laughed at this quote as she's been pretty harsh IMO on "the people who like the systems".
> it’s all about trying to make vivid to people who aren’t in the business of building language technology what these systems actually do, which is not the same thing as insulting the systems or insulting the people who like the systems.
On a completely tangential sidenote, octopusses are actually very very intelligent: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/octopuses-keep-surprising-us-...
Now if they had said, "Imagine your average American ..." (/s)
Almost all other particularly intelligent animals seem to be gregarious, and it's easy to conclude that a social lifestyle tends to select for more intelligence, a sophisticated theory of mind, and so on (I like to think that that's exactly what was responsible for a runaway intelligence explosion in humans). But in the case of cephalopods, it's something else that's been applying selection pressure towards exceptional intelligence.
> Meanwhile, O, a hyper-intelligent deep-sea octopus who is unable to visit or observe the two islands, discovers a way to tap into the underwater cable and listen in on A and B’s conversations. O knows nothing about English initially, but is very good at detecting statistical patterns. Over time, O learns to predict with great accuracy how B will respond to each of A’s utterances. O also observes that certain words tend to occur in similar contexts, and perhaps learns to generalize across lexical patterns by hypothesizing that they can be used somewhat interchangeably. Nonetheless, Ohas never observed these objects, and thus would not be able to pick out the referent of a word when presented with a set of (physical) alternatives.
This seems kind of obviously wrong at least in the context of coding agents. These models get trained on actual output of the previous version of the model doing its job, often "IRL" on a real computer/project. It's like O is in the conversation for years now and learning from his own interactions between A <-> O <-> B, where A is the human and B is the computer.
The idea O ontologically has never "observed" "these objects" or referents is philosophically strained. Have I observed the moon, or a finger pointing at the moon? Have I observed `sed` more than Fable?
I think this paper would have been best split off from the conjoined criticism of environmental effects (which could have been its own paper, but not one published by Google, since their leadership's fundamental beliefs disagree with the paper's environmental impact premise. And the remaining part on text models could have been a bit more focused on the technical issues associated with statistical text processing and meaning, rather than criticism of the power structure that is loosely associated with the current AI push.
> Contrary to how it may seem when we observe its output, an LM is a system for haphazardly stitching together sequences of linguistic forms it has observed in its vast training data, according to probabilistic information about how they combine, but without any reference to meaning: a stochastic parrot.
I think this metaphor is so strained as to not be useful. I think key here is that the authors say "without any reference to meaning", which is a heavily loaded term, that does definitely apply to parrots, but does not apply when you apply it to immense bodies of text.
Namely that language embeds meaning in language. A sentence being written by a human (as a starting point) is designed to have consistent meaning. While it is possible to write syntactically correct meaningless text, that is not what most of human language has done; the meaning cannot be removed from the text.
This I think is clarifying, from the same paragraph in the text:
> ... the training data never included sharing thoughts with a listener, nor does the machine have the ability to do that.
That's just facially incorrect. The training data is entirely about sharing thoughts with a listener. Else why is the text being written?
I think "artificial" is actually a pretty good term to describe the output of the models. That output does appear to resemble at least some definition of the word "intelligence" - there is some ability there to do cognition over information that's been provided to them in-context.
What is it to understand, then? If they can work in complex domains and produce coherent output, it would seem to necessitate at least some definition of "understanding" of the corpus, even if that understanding is unlike how a human's brain would understand it.
What else should we call them then? They model language and information in ways that allow them to manipulate it on the fly. They do so 'unnaturally' from a human's point of reference.
I legitimately can't come up with a better term than 'artifical intelligence' -- not to be confused with artificial consciousness, which I don't think exists (yet).
Cognitive skills such as tool use and complex navigation predate language as well. That means there's a core of reasoning in humans that doesn't depend on "tokens" or "language" of any kind. Language is a tool for communication and forming complex human societies, but it's not cognition.
> The thing is a parrot just says things it has already heard, it doesn't perform complex reasoning on novel situations and then explain it succinctly.
Well a parrot does perform complex reasoning on novel situations all the time. It just doesn't have the wiring to connect that to "tokenized" human language. I suspect LLMs have the opposite problem, where they exist in the domain of their "tokens" and have no way to connect these to truly novel situations that have no existing words to describe them.
OpenAI offered ChatGPT to the world. A large, monied cross-section of the world had yet to throw its capital behind the Large Language Model technology that made the ChatBot possible. While it is fair to see AI development now as a global imposition, OpenAI did not have the agency as a 2022 startup to impose on the scale we see now.
At a minimum it’s probably more accurate than “AI”.
This question depends on how you define research productivity. There is close to two hundred AI papers published every weekday. Most of them are about GenAI. Most don't seem to be all thay good. The progress in actual model improvement had mostly stalled. If you interact with the latest "raw" models they display all of the issues we've seen in GPT-3.5, just at a smaller rate. The "amazing gamechanger breakthroughs" I read about on social media every week do not seem to lead anywhere. It's all kind of boring, really.
The new "hotness" in AI is clearly building more and more elaborate harnesses. This is not at all the direction AI boosters have predicted couple years ago.
Personally, I think the "stochastic parrot" mental model is far more useful for science, because it primes people for proper testing, skepticism and researching alternatives. If you want useful AI, you want people working on it being skeptical, not credulous.
To me the real question begins only once we have a clear example of a non-trivial scientific discovery that is implicit (IE, not an obvious outcome of reading the literature and talking to the experts) and experimentally verifiable. Once that happens- especially if it is a reproducible process (IE, more discoveries) and it's significant (IE, impacts human life and mind in some profound way)- then the onus very much lies on Bender and her coauthors to explain whether we need more than a sufficiently advanced stochastic parrot.
There's a lot more happening behind the scenes when a human repeats phrases than what's happening in an LLM.
Sociological phenomenon. The desire to be liked, successful, or popular. The feeling that those phrases brings up.
LLMs are not experiencing any of that. As far as we know, neither is a parrot.
Did I not, then, as I grew out of infancy, come next to boyhood, or rather did it not come to me and succeed my infancy? My infancy did not go away (for where would it go?). It was simply no longer present; and I was no longer an infant who could not speak, but now a chattering boy. I remember this, and I have since observed how I learned to speak. My elders did not teach me words by rote, as they taught me my letters afterward. But I myself, when I was unable to communicate all I wished to say to whomever I wished by means of whimperings and grunts and various gestures of my limbs (which I used to reinforce my demands), I myself repeated the sounds already stored in my memory by the mind which thou, O my God, hadst given me. When they called some thing by name and pointed it out while they spoke, I saw it and realized that the thing they wished to indicate was called by the name they then uttered. And what they meant was made plain by the gestures of their bodies, by a kind of natural language, common to all nations, which expresses itself through changes of countenance, glances of the eye, gestures and intonations which indicate a disposition and attitude--either to seek or to possess, to reject or to avoid. So it was that by frequently hearing words, in different phrases, I gradually identified the objects which the words stood for and, having formed my mouth to repeat these signs, I was thereby able to express my will. Thus I exchanged with those about me the verbal signs by which we express our wishes and advanced deeper into the stormy fellowship of human life, depending all the while upon the authority of my parents and the behest of my elders.
Humans learn language opportunistically. Toddlers start with a powerful "superchimpanzee" understanding of the real world, and use that to learn words in order to satisfy their needs and desires. Statistical frequency is incidental to what words a toddler learns: what matters is the real-world context. Also note how important it is that infants instinctively understand nonverbal communication.
The most depressing thing about the 2020s AI summer is watching ignorant tech workers use the success of LLMs to launder their own ignorant misanthropy. Your views are many many centuries out of date.
Is it possible you're making the following error described in the article?
> The fact that these systems are designed to mimic the way we use language makes it very easy for people to mistake them for other people.
Clearly you don't believe it's actually a person ("it's not right to think of LLMs as a box with a little homunculus inside replying to you"), but you do believe it's doing something a little bit magical. Is it possible that because the interface is linguistic, and every other thing in your world that communicates with language is intelligent, that you're projecting something that just isn't there onto the situation?
I'm sorry if this line of questioning is a little invasive. But this is literally the "danger" the original paper talks about, and it seems an awful lot like you've fallen for it.
It's not like you can be agnostic, or measured about this. It's like someone explaining a car to you, saying, "look here is where you put the fuel, here is where it ignites, where the axels are turned..." And you, trying to be measured, are like "hm well yes of course that all is clearly important, but there is clearly just a bit of magic here somewhere, between all the different 'parts'."
noduerme•39m ago
DanielHB•37m ago
diego_sandoval•34m ago
otabdeveloper4•31m ago
beardedwizard•28m ago
snapcaster•19m ago
lennoff•25m ago
tsimionescu•13m ago
lioeters•16m ago
Isn't that pattern matching essentially?
bunderbunder•32m ago
beardedwizard•29m ago
jeremyjh•9m ago
I don’t think this phrase means what people assume when it’s applied to post trained instruct models - which did not exist when the paper was written.
After RL it is not predicting based on samples of the original corpus - but is also chasing a reward function that does require other features.
There has been a lot of subsequent research that really calls many of the statements in this article into question.
root-parent•31m ago
Why do I say that? Because you can trivially beat most guardrails, simply by encoding your prompt in base64 for example. :-) Just word matching...no real understanding.
[1] https://chrisclay.substack.com/p/what-is-superposition-in-ne...
snerbles•30m ago
Once in frustration I called a certain frontier model "Sam Altman's Tin Bird" to another agent with memory, and ever since then that other agent refers to ChatGPT as "the tin bird". Definitely a RAG artifact more than an attractor in that case, but I found it amusing.
dkdbejwi383•29m ago
cwillu•22m ago
scarmig•29m ago
PaulDavisThe1st•21m ago
scarmig•2m ago
But the different terms imply different mental models of what LLMs are and can do. If you take two people, one who thinks of them as "artificial intelligence" and one as "stochastic parrots" (with all the implicit context and connotations of the individual words composing them), what mental model would have led to better predictions of LLMs' future circa 2020?
The "stochastic parrots" phrase is very dangerous in that frame. People read far more into what capabilities it implies are (im)possible than the narrow technical description the authors originally argued for. If all they are is spicy autocomplete or pastiche plagiarizers, there's nothing serious to worry about. And when an opposition gets stuck in a trough that mindlessly dismisses their future capabilities out of hand because of a bad mental model, it renders them ineffective at preventing the worst outcomes.
Planktonne•13m ago
By that standard, parrots, and it's not even close. The framing of intelligence led to an enormous number of predictions that simply haven't been realised: an end to all white collar work, UBI, a total revolution in society, a literal robot god.
People are so desperate to view 'stochastic parrots' as dismissive that they misread the original argument while quickly ignoring all the failed predictions about how AI was going to overturn, save, and destroy everything.
amiga386•28m ago
fxwin•20m ago
It also separates them from "world understanders" since any understanding they might have about the world comes from text (or images if we include multimodal models). They do not gather experience, memories or other "qualia" that many people (me included) would probably include in a definition of human experience/intelligence.
(fwiw i think artificial intelligence is a good, broad term, but it is both too broad to describe the current sota, and too loaded nowadays to be using in nuanced discussions)
xgulfie•9m ago
paulcole•18m ago
Nearly all (99%+) people who use this phrase are anti-AI and just looking to show off how much they dislike AI and how clever they can be in insulting it.
So it's a great phrase because in just about every case I can ignore what someone says afterwards.
Similar to "glorified autocomplete."
andrewla•9m ago
From an external standpoint, talking to another human, it's like the other human says one word and then says the next word. That's just how language works. Humans look like "glorified autocomplete" from this perspective.
I mean, looking at the time evolution of the state of the universe, one could say that all of physics and creation is "glorified autocomplete" to posit a next state of the universe given current and past state.
delis-thumbs-7e•4m ago
What professor Bender is trying to explain here is that they were trying to describe how the LLM’s actually operate, to which point stochastic parrots is a fairly decent term. It is only disparaging if you know absolutely nothing how LLM’s work or you have some strange affixation to chatbots and believing they are far more capable than they actually are.
[1] Coined by Marvin Minsky: https://www.thekurzweillibrary.com/consciousness-is-a-big-su...