Quite a lot of the built environment is designed for 100+ year lifespans. When it isn’t there’s often very good reasons. It’s kind of amazing we get road bridges to last as long as they do when you consider the physical and chemical assault they’re constantly under all while trying to minimize weight and cost.
>Spanish canals operated in a temperate climate and were managed by individual farmers who could maintain or increase their water flow. The Moche and Chimu canal was tied to a complex labor system that synchronized cleaning and maintenance and prioritized the efficient use of water. What’s more, Moche canals functioned in tandem with floodwater diversion canals, which activated during El Niño events to create niches of agricultural productivity amid disasters.
The second paragraph belies the previous: Spanish canals obviously were not "identical in form" when you can point out so many differences.
But it would also be pretty unreasonable to equate the early Spanish colonists, who were a few pirates and scoundrels that used iron and horses to conquer and control an empire where they were outnumbered by a thousand to one, to the modern Peruvians. Many lessons have been learned since then and modern Peru's political problems pale in comparison to the brutality of the sixteenth century.
The more likely reason that the situation is different today is just that Peru's population density (34 million in the country) and agricultural production vastly exceeds anything that existed under the Inca (maximum about 12 million across an empire that included parts of modern Ecuador and Bolivia). The Peruvians themselves are no stranger to attempting to copy the pre-colonial infrastructure practices, with mixed results. Of course if you grow less, you can better avoid running out of water. But this is no solace.
Ancient beliefs, behaviors and norms may have helped indigenous people perpetuate the solutions/technologies. Studying and understanding those may help people - today - to more quickly understand those solutions. But it's not like a thorough understand ing and application of these technologies - today - require us to "maintain technology and culture coupling" as this _archeologist professor_ implies.
The Spanish may have made wrong assumptions at first and failed to replicate the solution, but if we still see it being used today, that's because the colonist eventually learned - without perpetuating the culture (not to the same extend as the indigenous)
antics9•6h ago
lurk2•5h ago
A lot of these noble savage narratives emerge from Latin American studies (history, archaeology, literature, etc.), particularly among Mexican and American-educated academics. There is truth to the idea that the complexity of indigenous systems is unappreciated by the general public, but there’s always this underlying fetishization of a pseudo-magical indigenous “way of knowing” contrasted with the (historically far-better performing) European scientific method. Indigenous cultures are redeemed from European military conquests by insisting that the European way of knowing is myopic and selfish (being focused on profit over sustainability, the individual over the community, etc.) in contrast to the indigenous way of knowing, which is holistic and communitarian.
The author does have publications related to these irrigation systems, though, so maybe she has a valid point to make and the article just didn’t land for me.
syspec•5h ago
It's really weird to come across such articles, because they always add this mystic to these cultures that actually ends up coming across as the generic "in touch with nature" noble savage archetype
mstipetic•4h ago
Jensson•4h ago
luckylion•4h ago
We've generally abandoned "being in touch with nature" for focusing on specific niches, and it's so incredibly more efficient that you can have large groups of people who focus on systems based on purely made up things, like sports.
If they both needed the probability of rain three days from now, who do you think would fare better, the ancients with their ancient wisdom, or your neighbors with modern sensors and meteorological models?
reycharles•2h ago
jorgen123•1h ago
luckylion•11m ago
Division of labor goes for division of scientific labor, too.
Granted, there seems to be an increasing trust issue in taking those results as true, but that's a separate issue.
typewithrhythm•2h ago
The only part in tune with nature is that in bad periods the population dies back.
bobmcnamara•4h ago
Spooky23•4h ago
Because you’re left with archeological evidence, whose interpretation is always very conservative, and limited oral tradition, it’s easy to veer into legend, because honestly that’s that who have to work with.
tomrod•3h ago
Spooky23•1h ago
Read about the Mit'a system that was perverted by the colonial government to essentially improve the return on assets of the colony versus slaves or other means of cheap labor. It broke down the society of the native population completely and made it impossible for them to respond or react to disasters.
AlotOfReading•32m ago
dopidopHN•4h ago
That being said : there is something to be said about the Spanish cargo culting those canals in that specific plain… and failing to maintain it.
While we know it was fertile for generation before.
The article hint at private ownership being a factor? I could see that.
But 100% agree : I spend the article asking “ok, what is the culture then”
But it looks like it happen: irrigation work Spanish take over irrigation it stop working
I suspect sabotage was a bit factor, too.
elif•4h ago
Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position (which I would dispute), the lack of respect in your position is certain.
Jensson•4h ago
Pointing out there are other possibilities isn't a lack of respect. If you believe A or B could have happened, you see someone say B happened, it is fair to say that A might have happened as well, that doesn't mean you believe B couldn't have happened.
handwarmers•4h ago
scythe•4h ago
Of course nothing that's literally from the modern period is centuries old, but that's a tautology!
luckylion•4h ago
Why would anyone build something only to neglect it? If one of the requirements was "it shall work for 500 years and never be maintained", then I'm sure you could get plenty of things designed and built for that requirement. It's just that it's a lot more expensive and not particularly useful, so nobody bothers.
lurk2•3h ago
Off the top of my head:
1. Various aqueduct systems constructed by the Roman Empire are still in use today.
2. Persian qalats.
3. The Grand Canal in China.
4. Roman Roads
5. Hawaiian aquaculture systems
6. Aboriginal Australian fish traps
Monumental architecture (e.g. the Pyramids) would make the list substantially longer.
> Even if academia is swinging to a "too respectful" position
The issue isn’t that they are attributing accomplishments to these civilizations, but instead that they are attributing these accomplishments to a way of knowing that is purportedly superior to that of the Europeans, which is just farcical when you consider that every modern technology has either been invented or scaled based on European models of thinking (e.g. the scientific method, mass production, free market capitalism, etc.)
Like I said, this is mostly just a product of Mexican and American humanities departments being populated by people with an axe to grind; there aren’t any STEM graduates in South America concerned with the mystical knowledge that their ancestors are purported to have possessed.
AStonesThrow•2h ago
I would be unsurprised if the Carmelite Orders likewise invested significant maintenance in the old Roman construction, and learned from it as well.
typewithrhythm•2h ago
There are a few examples that might fit, some earthworks, (tunnels, breakwaters, dams) and navigation markers come to mind (costal, but we also put retro reflectors on the moon).
BlueTemplar•31m ago
Hmm, any Vauban-like fortifications in Ukraine that would have suddenly found a new use since 2014 ?
Spooky23•1h ago
Around me, The High Bridge between Bronx and Manhattan was built pre Civil War and abandoned for decades and still standing (and now is use again). The Hell Gate Bridge was built by the NY Central Railroad and will probably outlast the US.
Lots of 19th century infrastructure will be around for centuries, if you look at the the path of the Erie and Lackawanna railroad routes, many bridges and other infrastructure will be standing hundreds of years from now. Lots of interstate infrastructure will function for hundreds of years in rural areas with low traffic, well beyond their engineered lifespan.
Stone is the most durable material and structures are overbuilt. Steel is much cheaper but requires maintenance.
notarobot123•3h ago
Perhaps we can learn lessons from ancient cultures about how we might be able to efficiently manage our resources and achieve more with what is available. Is that so far fetched an idea?
lurk2•2h ago
> Perhaps we can learn lessons from ancient cultures about how we might be able to efficiently manage our resources and achieve more with what is available. Is that so far fetched an idea?
I don’t mean to imply that European models get everything right, but I think it would be far-fetched to bet against these models; historically, they’ve worked, and they’ve worked far better than any other model. The author does have a paper she linked to (which I missed on my first reading), so she might have a more compelling case to make than I originally assumed.
pxmpxm•2h ago
Same thing with climate change, i've come across a pile of random definitely-not-climate-science papers (macre econ development divergence in hipanola, property rights in subsaharan africa, unrelated culutral anthropoly etc) that allude to climate change as the key driver for the phenomenon observed. Clearly NSF and NIH wanted a very certain set of content published.
lurk2•1h ago
The author describes herself in these terms:
> While I’m an archaeologist, I consider my research to be directed at the modern-day climate crisis. I investigate how resilient farming systems emerge and adapt to climate change and natural disasters. My fieldwork takes place on the north coast of Peru, where I study ancient irrigation in arid farming zones.
She doesn’t have any other social media profile so I don’t want to be overly cynical about her motives. Anyway, I think the climate angle is potentially huge in a lot of these fields.
There has been a trend in academia in the last few decades to focus on holistic analysis. This has led to a lot of academics trying to tie their research to disparate issues for both grant money and social status, but I also suspect that a lot of it is born of a genuine to come up with a grand unified theory of all the world’s problems. You see it with figures like Aldous Huxley around the mid-20th century (Huxley’s conclusion in his final novel, Island, is that “Nothing short of everything will do,”). The new wave that seems to have started in the 2010s has taken on a considerably more political bent (“Everything is political,” “Climate change is a product of white supremacy,” intersectional feminism, etc.).
These theories aren’t necessarily “wrong,” but the scholarship they produce is so bad that they are hard to take seriously.
BlueTemplar•50m ago
https://samzdat.com/2017/05/22/man-as-a-rationalist-animal/
(The free market does sound closer to metis... but is also EXTREMELY focused on the short term, see : negative externalities. )
notarobot123•3h ago
There's also a link which points to more details but it doesn't look to be accessible: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-antiquity/a...
like_any_other•1h ago
It's like describing how a car works with just "it is efficiently designed to help you travel faster, and uses skilled maintenance workers".
BlueTemplar•37m ago
https://www.proquest.com/ openview/768dad5fa2923211ed1128cfa33d5a29/1?cbl=18750&diss=y&pq-origsite=gscholar
(It does sound like a great idea for a layman-focused documentary, and I would be surprised if none exist yet.)
like_any_other•3m ago