Is this exclusively referring to the ux or full functionality?
Because I can tell you straight away that cursor (Claude) vs copilot is not a 1% difference. Most people in my company pay their own cursor license even though we have copilot for available for free.
I think copilot could get there TBH. I love most Microsoft dev tools and IDEs. But it really isn’t there yet in my opinion.
I was referring to UX, as that is the main product. Cursor isn't providing their own models, or at least most people that I'm aware of are bringing their own keys.
I haven't used copilot extensively but my understanding is that they now have feature parity at the IDE level, but the underlying models aren't as good.
For use cases demanding the most intelligent model, yes they aren't.
However, there are cases that you just can't use best models due to latency. For example next edit prediction, and applying diffs [0] generated by the super intelligent model you decided to use. AFAIK, Cursor does use their own model for these, which is why you can't use Cursor without paying them $20/mo even if you bring your own Anthropic API key. Applying what Claude generated in Copilot is just so painfully slow to the point that I just don't want to use it.
If you tried Cursor early on, I recommend you update your prior now. Cursor had been redesigned about a year ago, and it is a completely different product compared to what they first released 2 years ago.
[0] We may not need a model to apply diff soon, as Aider leaderboard shows, recent models started to be able to generate perfect diff that actually applies.
I do sometimes use Composer (or Agent in recent versions), but it's being increasingly less useful in my case. Not sure why :(
My experience is that copilot is basically a better autocomplete, but anything beyond a three liner will deviate from current context making the answer useless - not following the codebase's convention, using packages that aren't present, not seeing the big picture, and so on.
In contrast, cursor is eerily aware of its surroundings, being able to point out that your choice of naming conflicts with somewhere else, that your test is failing because of a weird config in a completely different place leaking to your suite, and so on.
I use cursor without bringing my own keys, so it defaults to claude-3.5-sonnet. I always use it in composer mode. Though I can't tell you with full certainty the reasons for its better performance, I strongly suspect it's related to how it searches the codebase for context to provide the model with.
It gets to the point that I'm frequently starting tasks by dropping a Jira description with some extra info to it directly and watching it work. It won't do the job by itself in one shot, but it will surface entry points, issues and small details in such a way that it's more useful to start there than from a blank slate, which is already a big plus.
It can also be used as a rubber duck colleague asking it whether a design is good, potential for refactorings, bottlenecks, boy scouting and so on.
I use cursor for personal work though and it's night and day, even with the recent copilot agent mode additions. I told my CTO who asked about it if we should look into cursor and I told him straight up that in comparison copilot is basically useless.
I keep reading here that Cursor has great autocomplete so we could be talking about a 1000% improvement compared to Copilot rather than 1% as on of the other commenters is positing.
I'm using the Claude backend instead of the default (OpenAI). I wonder if that makes the difference.
This is true, but as a user of both and champion of Cursor - VS Code Copilot is quickly catching up.
OpenAI is predominantly a consumer AI company. Anthropic has also won over developer hearts and minds since Claude 3.5. Developers are also, proportionally, the largest uses of AI in an enterprise setting. OpenAI does not want to be pigeonholed into being the "ChatGPT company". And money spent now is a lot cheaper than money spent later.
But this is all just speculation anyways.
Given how heavily Apple has leaned into E2E over the years, I don't see this happening at all, beyond local on-device stuff.
It’s a shame we can’t have anything nice not get consumed but - such is the world.
This seems like a bold statement.
Like even in a cold capitalist analysis, the benefits to developer velocity, ease of new feature development, incident response, stability, customer trust, etc.
It doesn’t always; there are certainly areas of tech debt that bother me personally but I know aren’t worth the ROI to clean up. These become weekend projects if I want a fun win in my life, but nothing terrible happens if there’s a little friction.
Sometimes it’s because there are regular bugs and on-call becomes a drag on velocity.
Sometimes making code changes is difficult and there’s only one person who knows what going on, so you either have a bus factor risk or it limits flexibility on assigning projects / code review.
Sometimes the system’s performance is, or will be in the short–medium term, going to start causing incidents.
Sometimes incident recovery takes a long time. We had a pipeline that would take six–ten hours to run and couldn’t be restarted midway if it failed. Recovering from downtime was crazy!
Sometimes there’s a host of features whose development timelines would be sped up by more than it would take to burn down the tech debt to unlock them.
Sometimes a refactor would improve system performance enough to meaningfully affect the customer or reduce infra costs.
And then…
Sometimes you have career-driven managers and engineers who don’t want to or can’t make difficult long-term trade-offs, which is sometimes the way it is and you should consider switching teams or companies.
So I guess my question to you is: why should you burn this down?
Most of the criticisms of vibe coding are coming from SWEs who work on large, complicated codebases whose products are used by lots of people and for whom security, edge cases, maintainability, etc. are extremely important considerations. In this context, vibe coding is obviously a horrible idea, and we are pretty far away from AI being able to do more than slightly assist around the edges.
But small, bespoke scripts that will be used by exactly 1 person and are whose outputs are easily verified are actually _hugely_ important. Millions of things are probably done every single day where, if the person doing it had the skill to write up a small script, it would be massively sped up. But most people don't have that skill, and it's too expensive/there is too much friction to hire an actual programmer to solve it. AI can do these things.
Each specific instance isn't a big deal, and won't make much productivity difference, but in aggregate, the potential gains are massive, and AI is already far more than good enough to be completely creating these kinds of scripts. It is just going to take people a while to shift their perspective and start asking about what small tasks they do every day that could be scripted.
This is the true potential of "vibe coding". Someone who can't program, but knows what they need (and how to verify that it works), making something for their personal use.
> Low-code and no-code development platforms allow professional as well as citizen developers to quickly and efficiently create applications in a visual software development environment. The fact that little to no coding experience is required to build applications that may be used to resolve business issues underlines the value of the technology for organizations worldwide. Unsurprisingly, the global low-code platform market is forecast to amount to approximately 65 billion U.S. dollars by 2027. [0]
We could argue about the exact no-code TAM, but if you have a decent chance to create the market leader for the no-code replacement, $3B seems fair, doesn't it?
[0] https://www.statista.com/topics/8461/low-code-and-no-code-pl...
LLM-enabled Zapier or Make or n8n is the future, not everyone churning out Claude-written NextJS app after NextJS app.
There are many use cases for low-code. The two major ones I've dealt with are MVPs where tools like Bubble are used, and the other is creating corporate internal tools, where MS Power Platform is common.
Corporate IT departments are allergic to custom web apps, and have a much easier time getting a Power Platform project approved due to its easily understood security implications. That low-code use case is certainly going to be the last thing a tool like Windsurf conquers.
However, even without that use case, in an AI-heavy investment environment, $3B doesn't seem all that bad to me. However, I have zero experience with M&A.
Vibe coding is coding like a customer hiring a programmer is coding.
If all the code is written by AI it isn’t coding at all, it’s ordering.
Who is the contributor then? The AI or the prompt writer?
I mean I'd be more at ease if they would just contribute their prompt instead. And then, what value does that actually have? So many mixed feelings here.
At work I had a React dev merging Java code into a rather complex project. It was clearly heavily prompt assisted, and looked like the code the junior Java developer would have written. The difference is that the junior Java developer probably would have sweated a couple of days over that code, so she would know it inside out and could maintain it. The React dev would just write more prompts or ask the AI to do it.
If we're confident that prompting creates good code and solid projects, well then we don't need expensive developers anymore do we?
Are they easily verified though?
I have a bunch of people who are "vibe coding" in non-dev departments. It's amazing that it allows them to do things they otherwise couldn't, but I don't think it's accurate to say it's easily verified, unless we're talking about the most trivial tasks ("count the words in this text").
As soon as it gets a bit more complex (but far from "complex"), it's no longer verifiable for them except "the output looks kinda like what I expected". Might still be useful for things, but how much weight do you want to put on your sales-analysis if you've verified its accuracy by "looks intuitively correct"?
I would argue that the real money, and the gap right now, is in vibe tasking, not vibe coding.
There are millions of knowledge workers for whom the ability to synthesize and manipulate office artifacts (excel sheets, salesforce objects, emails, tableau reports, etc) is critical. There are also lots of employees who recognise that a lot of these tasks are "bullshit jobs", and a lot of employers that would like nothing more than to automate them away. Companies like Appian try to convince CEOs that digital process automation can solve this problem, but the difficult reality is that these tasks also require a bit of flexible thinking ("what do I put in my report if the TPS data from Gary doesnt show up in time?"). This is a far bigger and more lucrative market than the one made of people who need quick and dirty apps or scripts.
It's also one that has had several attempts over the years to solve it. Somewhere between "keyboard automation" (macro recording, AutoHotKey type stuff) and "citizen programming" (VB type tools, power automate) and "application oriented LLM" (copilot for excel, etc) there is a killer product and a vast market waiting to escape.
Amusingly, in my own experience, the major corps in the IT domain (msft, salesforce, etc etc) all seem to be determined to silo the experience, so that the conversational LLM interface only works inside their universe. Which perhaps is the reason why vibe tasking hasnt succeeded yet. Perhaps MCP or an MCP marketplace will force a degree of openness, but it's too early to say.
Almost everything I've seen achieved with vibe coding so far has been long since achievable with low / no code platforms. There is a great deal of value in the freedom that vibe coding gives (and for that reason, I am in favor of it) but the missing piece of this criticism of the criticism is that vibe coding is not the only way to write these simple scripts and it is the least reliable way.
Vibe coding as the future is an uninspired vision of the future. The future is less code, not more.
I tried showing someone Bubble as a solution to a fairly simple workflow (one form input, a few LLM calls, an output) that they should have been able to build in minutes.
It was a horrific experience, as Bubble can't find the right balance between being "no-code" (simple) and "powerful enough" with customizations. The end result is that in my experience a non-technical person just can't get workflows to work in Bubble without investing a massive number of hours.
In comparison, getting this done with either vanilla Claude.ai or Lovable is a *single* prompt. Just one!
I think you are deeply underestimating the difference for true non-technical users. Or even bored/overwhelmed technical users who need something done that's non-mission-critical and would just never get done if it took hours of messing with a no-code GUI, vs. dictating it through whisper and letting the AI agent go at it.
I think LLMs have a much better chance at this kind of software than Emacs or BASIC, but I also doubt it has any future: once AI is capable enough, you can just hide the programmatic layer entirely and tell the computer what to do.
Also, I've already seen this story play out with low-code. The pitch was the same, nearly line by line: "citizen developers will be able to solve so many problems by themselves at the edges of enterprise". It didn't take. Most users could not learn the technologies, but much more importantly: they did not even know how to verbalize their requirements. Take my word for it, most people do not want to design solutions, and of those that are willing, only a small subset is able.
That's the point. Unlike low-code or no-code bullshit, this somehow worked. People "magically" want to design solutions, and are able to, now.
> People executing small scripts all over the place sounds to me like the stuff of nightmares.
Me too. However, watching how eager people want to (and they indeed can!) make progress with these LLM generated horror, I believe it's time to give up and start designing secure systems despite the existence of massive slightly broken scripts.
I agree that LLMs lower the barrier significantly compared to low-code/no-code, but most people are not able to design solutions because they lack the business analysis skills and are not detailed-oriented enough to follow through with the specification of requirements. Let's not even talk about the discipline to carry out maintenance over a working project in the face of changing requirements.
Even if we agree that LLMs move a lot of the work up the stack towards business analysis / product ownership / solution design, my experience in Enterprise IT in companies ranging from small to gigantic is that users do not magically become BAs / POs / PMs. There's a reason those are professionalized and specialized roles.
I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, it's not like I feel personally threatened or anything. I feel it's the integrity of the systems I oversee that would be threatened.
> I believe it's time to give up and start designing secure systems
OK, well I'm not going to bear that responsibility for that, I have enough on my plate as it is. I'm not allowing an arbitrary sales rep to interact with our production Salesforce instance by automated means, period. Even if they have the proper permission levels configured to a tee in Salesforce, I can think of a thousand ways they could badly mess up their own slice of data. Interacting with the local machine: also potentially a supermassive black hole of vulnerabilities. Some of them possibly more serious than data loss, such as the syphoning of data to malicious actors.
If someone can think of secure ways for citizen devs to interact with critical enterprise systems via scripting, then fine. I'll sit here waiting!
I guess in the long run it could become worthwhile, but it’ll be a long road to get there
Could you please elaborate? Is this how management (at least in your company) looks at code—as a ratio of how fast it's done over how many tests it passes?
"Vibe" coding is here to stay and it's only devs who don't know how to adapt that are wishfully hoping for otherwise.
You might not be good at estimating, but professional software teams at the most successful tech companies in the world generally are.
If you read the blog post, they were able to manually migrate 3% of the tests in 1 week. Extrapolating that gives you an estimate of less than half of the 1.5 year estimate.
I’d also say there’s a pretty good chance that the 3% of tests the automated process couldn’t handle were more complicated than average and the devs would have gotten faster at doing these migrations after the first week.
It’s very unclear what was actually being compared. A team did a POC in 2023 and then some work in 2024 and then spent 6 weeks tweaking the pipeline and a final week manually migrating the tests that the automated process couldn’t handle.
But they don’t specify how many people worked on this or how many people were going to work on the original project. It could have been 1 guy on the team.
As for looking at what the actual work was, it was migrating from one test framework to another one. I’d be surprised if a team couldn’t have written a compiler to do something similar in a similar amount of time.
I doubt that error free code is outnumbering code with errors in the training data.
1. Nobody cares. It's still worth the insane productivity improvements.
2. There is no proof that it's going to lead to long-term issues, because why would it?
Color me unimpressed - it converted some test files. It didn't design any architecture, create any databases, handle any security concerns or any of the other things programmers have to do/worry about on a daily basis. It basically did source to source translation, which has been around for 30+ years.
and we don't know what is the quality of end code, it is possible that tech debt created by migration is well higher than 1.5 eng/y.
Seriously, the wishful thinking around this stuff is embarassing.
I’ve done something similar to this type of work with an llm. It produces code that is often too idiomatic, in that it introduces conventional approaches that are overkill for the task at hand. But this is almost an ideal scenario, because if the previous tests run clean, the newly converted tests can only fail by being wrong.
They can also silently reduce the tested scenarios, but that’s what code reviews are for.
> They can also silently reduce the tested scenarios, but that’s what code reviews are for.
code review of complicated scenarios is about as resource demanding as actually writing code, so shrinking time spent from 1.5y to 6 weeks totally can produce lower quality.
But given your comment history, backing up your arguments doesn't seem to be your strong suit...
We’ll see if Gemini 2.5 Flash is good enough, but it definitely doesn’t feel like Google is selling for a huge loss post-training.
Yes the training is a huge investment but are they really not going to do it? Doesn’t seem optional
For some projects (e.g. your internal-facing CRUD app), cheap code is acceptable. For a high scale consumer product, the cost of premium engineering resources is a rounding error on your profits, and even small marginal improvements can generate high value in absolute dollar terms.
I’m sure vibe coding will eat the lowest end of software development. It will also allow the creation of software that wouldn’t have been economically viable before. But I don’t see it notably denting the high end without something close to AGI.
Also what tech debt? If you have good engineers doing the vibe coding they are just way faster. And also faster at squashing bugs.
I was one-shotting whole features into our Rust code base with 2.5 last week. Absolutely perfect code, better than I could have written it in places.
Then later that week o3 solved a hard bug 2 different MLEs failed to solve as well as myself.
I have no idea why people think this stuff is bad, it’s utterly baffling to me
If I’m not learning something every day this profession holds very little for me.
Oh, please. Even if every cent of VC funding dries up tomorrow we'd still have years of discovering how to use LLMs and "generative models" in general to do cool, useful stuff. And by "we" I mean everyone, at every level. The proverbial bearded dude in his mom's basement, the young college grad, phd researcher, big tech researcher, and everyone in the middle. The cat is out of the bag, and this tech is here to stay.
The various AI winters came because of many reasons, none that are present today. Todays tech is cool! It's also immediately useful (oAI, anthropic, goog are already selling billions of $ worth of tokens!). And it's highly transformative. The amount of innovation in the past 2 years is bonkers. And, for the first time, it's also accessible to "home users". Alpaca was to llama what the home computer was to computers. It showed that anyone can take any of the open models and train them on their downstream tasks for cheap. And guess what, everyone is doing it. From horny teens to business analysts, they're all using this, today.
Also, as opposed to the last time (which also coincided with the .com bubble), this time the tech is supported and mainly financed by the top tech firms. VCs are not alone in this one. Between MS, goog, AMZ, Meta and even AAPL, they're all pouring billions into this. They'll want to earn their money back, so like it or not, this thing is here to stay. (hell, even IBM! is doing gen ai =)) )
So no, AI winter is not coming.
I don't see how peak vibe coding in a few months follows that. Check revenue and growth figures for products like Lovable ($10m+ ARR) or Bolt.new ($30m+ ARR). This doesn't show costs (they might in fact be deep in red) but with story like that I don't see it crashing in 3-4 months.
On the user experience/expectation side, I can see how the overhyped claims of "build complete apps" hit a peak, but that will still leave the tools positioned strong for "quick prototyping and experimentation". IMHO, that alone is enough to prevent a cliff drop.
Even allowing for the peak in tool usage for coding specifically, I don't see how that causes "AI winter", since LLMs are now used in a wide variety of cases and that use is strongly growing (and uncorrelated to the whole "AI coding" market).
Finally, "costs will go up for all sorts of reasons" claim is dubious, since the costs per token are dropping even while the models are getting better (for a quick example, cost of GPT-4.1 is roughly 50% of GPT-4o while being an improvement).
For these reasons, if I could bet against your prediction, I'd immediately take that bet.
There's a rich irony to be saying this right after explaining how Google is dominating the market and how they're involved in an antitrust lawsuit for alleged illegal monopolistic practices.
And of course this willfully ignores the phase of capitalism we are in with the AI market right now. We all know how the story will end. Over time, AI companies will inevitably merge and the products will eventually enshittify. As companies like OpenAI look to exit they will go public or be acquired and need to greatly trim the fat in order to become profitable long-term.
We'll start seeing AI products incorporate things like advertising, raise their prices, and every other negative end state we've seen with every other new technology landscape. E.g., When I get a ride from Uber they literally display ads to me while I'm waiting for my vehicle. They didn't do that when they were okay with losing moeny.
And of course, "free market" capitalism isn't really free market at all in an enviornment where there are random tariffs being applied and removed on a whim to random countries.
I really don't understand why people feel like they need to defend capitalism like this. Capitalism doesn’t need a defender, if anything it constantly needs people restraining it.
The author frames Apple's choice as an own goal, but I'd rather see it as putting the failings of capitalism on display.
And yes Codeium/Windsurf focuses on enterprise customers more. As GP said they have an on-prem [0], a hybrid SaaS offering and enterprise features that just make sense (e.g. pooled credits). Their support team is more responsive (compared to Anysphere). Windsurf also "feels" more finished than Cursor.
[0] but ultimately if you want to "vibe-coding" you have to call Claude API
Codeium can be fine tuned. Though it’s trained on similar open source it does provide assurances that they do not inadvertently train on wrongly licensed software code.
https://windsurf.com/blog/copilot-trains-on-gpl-codeium-does...
The questions raised by the article (as I saw it) were price and timing. $3B is a lot. Is that overpaying for something with a known value but limited reach? Not to mention competitors with deep pockets. And the other question is - why now? What was to be gained by OpenAI by buying Windsuf now.
Codeium can be fine tuned. Though it’s trained on similar open source it does provide assurances that they do not inadvertently train on wrongly licensed software code.
https://windsurf.com/blog/copilot-trains-on-gpl-codeium-does...
1) I agree that the moat for these companies is thin. AFAICT, auto-complete, as opposed to agentic flows, is Cursor's primary feature that attracts users. This is probably harder than the author gives it credit for; figuring out what context to provide the model is a non-obvious problem - how do you tradeoff latency and model quality? Nonetheless, it's been implemented enough times that it's mostly just down to how good is the underlying model.
2) Speaking of models, I'm not sure it's been independently benchmarked yet, but GPT 4.1 on the surface looks like a reasonable contestant to back auto-complete functionality. Varun from Windsurf was even on the GPT 4.1 announcement livestream a few days ago, so it's clear Windsurf does intend to use them.
3) This is probably a stock deal, not a cash deal. Not sure why the author is so convinced this has to be $3B in cash paid for Windsurf. AFAIK that hasn't been reported anywhere.
4) If agentic flows do take off, data becomes a more meaningful moat. Having a platform like Cursor or Windsurf enables these companies to collect telemetry about _how_ users are coding that isn't possible just from looking at the repo, the finished product. It opens up interesting opportunities for RLHF and other methods to refine agentic flows. That could be part of the appeal here.
I didn't think about telemetry for RL, that's very interesting
Most recently, gemini 2.5 pro makes the agentic workflow usable, and how!
No sane organization will accept anything less than forcing SWEs to use these tools moving forward. The details might differ and some will delay because "IP", but they'll all converge very quickly.
Not to say there's no joy in doing it the old-fashioned way on your own time :)
I've seen the light!
If you are powering the API for the underlying model, then don't you know exactly how users are coding?
Since all of it is included in the context fed to your model.
You have the code, but not all the other signals. An easy example is "acceptance signal" where someone gets an autocompletion and accepts it / rejects it. It can get more complicated with the /architect mode and so on, but there's probably lots of signals that you can get from an IDE that you can't just by serving API responses.
some of the oldest companies are data companies think your credit rating provider, your business verifier. your american express.
They need to buy revenue streams fast
XAI has Twitter (ads) Meta has well everything
It’s why OpenAI will build a social network or search engine and get into Ads ASAP
I haven’t heard about this before this post, but if they’re starting a “Social Media but with AI” site in 2025, can’t help but feel like they’re cooked.
AI will lead to far bigger work accomplished than one prompt or chat at a time. Bigger work flows on humans upgrading and interacting with AI will be a big critical category for that.
Otherwise, why spend 3 billion if you could have it cooked up by an AI coding agent for (almost) free?
Or called plausible deniability. They will always deny these reports.
At the end of the day, Windsurf has a private price tag which they know they will sell at.
If they were smart, they should consider selling the hype.
Beyond that, these IDEs have a potential path to “vibe coding for everyone” and could possibly represent the next generation of general office tooling. Might as well start with a dedicated product team vs spinning up a new one.
And so if you’re purchasing with equity in whole or in part, the critical question is, do you believe this product could be worth more than $3b in the future? That’s not at all a stretch.
Cursor is awfully cozy with Anthropic, as well, and so if I’m OpenAI, I don’t mind having a competitive product inserted into this space. This space, by the way, that is at the forefront of demonstrating real value creation atop your platform.
OAI spends gobs of money on Mercor and Windsurf telemetry gets them similar data. My guess is they saw their Mercor spend hitting close to 1B a year in the next 5 years if they did nothing to curb it
Before approaching Windsurf, OpenAI wanted to buy Cursor (which is what I predicted thought too [0]) first, then the talks failed twice! [1]
The fact they approached Cursor more than once tells you they REALLY wanted to buyout Cursor. But Cursor wanted more and were raising over $10B.
Instead OpenAI went to Windsurf. The team at Windsurf should think carefully and they should sell because of the extreme competition, overvaluation and the current AI hype cycle.
Both Windsurf and Cursor’s revenue can evaporate very quickly. Don’t get greedy like Cursor.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43708867
[1] https://techcrunch.com/2025/04/17/openai-pursued-cursor-make...
OpenAI looked at buying Cursor creator before turning to Windsurf - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43716856 - April 2025 (115 comments)
OpenAI in Talks to Buy Windsurf for About $3B - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43708725 - April 2025 (44 comments)
Distribution: OpenAI believes the marginal token they sell will be accretive to their bottom line, so the goal then is to deliver as many tokens as possible. Windsurf already has 1k+ enterprise logos and allegedly millions of downloads. 2 m tokens × $0.00001 gross / token = $20/seat/mo; if windsrf runs 500k seats, oai books $120 m/yr gross @ 90% margin.
I saw a similar dynamic play out in the UK with Pub (bar) companies. By mid-2000s, the major players were failing. Margins were nearly zero, thanks to rising costs, and securlar decline in demand, plus they had too much expensive term debt.
But they represented profitable sources of distribution for the beer makers. So Heineken went on a buying spree. They didn't care about making money from the pubs themselves and were happy to run them break-even. This is because they then had a controlled channel of distribution for their beer (and they made a profit on every pint they shipped).
The switching costs are very different here, and the market is still so nascent. It is a thin product and vscode‑copilot can catchup. But 1% of enterprise value ($3bn of $300bn) is not a lot to gamble on owning the #2 horse in the most promising AI end market today.
Re talent, I'm not sure how big windsurf is, but aren't these teams generally quite small? $3b for a small team still seems quite high, especially since (afaik) their core area of expertise is more in UX and product than in ml research. That's not to say that UX and product aren't worth acquiring, just that the price tag is surprising if that's the primary justification.
"Ben Thompson: What’s going to be more valuable in five years? A 1-billion daily active user destination site that doesn’t have to do customer acquisition, or the state-of-the-art model?
Sam Altman: The 1-billion user site I think."
OpenAI is a technology company constantly in search of productization (ChatGPT, Sora, Dall-e), and they’ve been really good at creating product interest that converts to acquisition. An IDE is much more complex than a chat app, but given their literal billions of dollars and familiarity with developer tooling, this is a down-stack build that they could dogfood off their own tech. And especially given that some of these tools were built by tiny teams (Cursor is what, 10 people?), is this like Google and Facebook’s implicit admission that they can’t “build and grow” anymore, and need to turn to acquisitions to fuel growth?
Especially given that Windsurf (and I think Cursor too) is a VSCode fork and OpenAI is cozy enough with Microsoft? It’s not even a zero to one build.
This looks more like a short term tactical move, and the goal is to improve their "API usage" KPIs, because compared to Gemini/Claude it looks not good. (majority of traffic are chatgpt.com free users)
The main thing is marketing and userbase, which shouldn't be underestimated.
But OpenAI has the best brand recognition and the largest user base, and they have the core tech powering all of this. Whats the number on “tons” of customers, given that these VSCode-spinoff/plugin GPT wrappers are sprouting around like mushrooms after a rain?
If this is a build-vs-buy decision, $3 billion? Is that worth 1/3rd of the money in the bank when they’re burning cash at insane rates just running servers, and the rest of the $30b fundraise is tenuous and there may not be a followup? I’m skeptical of the financial decision here.
It’s about buying time as well. Could they put out a competitive product in less than six months? Maybe, but even that would leave them light years behind the market by the time it was ready.
The problem is that what you're discussing is a political undertaking. I don't mean that it's "left versus right" political, I mean that the primary task that makes it hard is getting a lot of human beings to agree on some low-level details about how the gory internals of an IDE work. LLMs can produce text, but they have no will to political organization. They aren't going to accomplish a task by going out and trying align the needs of many individuals in a compromise that requires determined work to find out what those people really want and need, which is the only way to get this particular task done. Somehow the natural-language-as-API idea has made many people think that in the future APIs and formal technical standards will be unnecessary, something for which I do not see evidence.
There's a second problem too, one of alignment: LLMs encourage you to give away the work of coding. I would not for anything give away the pain of using mediocre tools like VSCode to write a lot of code myself, because what I learn as the intelligence doing the work is what I need to know to be able to make tools for doing that work more efficiently. I use my learnings to design protocols, data structures, libraries, frameworks, and programming languages which don't just *mask* the underlying pain of software development but which can reduce it greatly.
To quote Ollien:
> Even as an “LLM-skeptic”, it would be silly for me to say that the tools are useless for software development. There are clearly times where they can be useful, whether that’s to perform a refactoring too complicated for IDE tooling, or to get a proof-of-concept put together. With that said, in my time both using and watching others use LLMs, I have noticed a troubling trend: they help reduce friction when developing software – friction that can help us to better understand and improve the systems we work on.
It's quite funny to me that in the case I'm talking about, "a refactor that's too complicated for IDE tooling" is exactly the kind of friction that needs to be felt
The obvious answer is that vibecoding does not work.
If it did, OpenAI wouldn't need to buy Windsurf
That said, the kinds of things I've been hearing as going wrong with vibe coding are all or mostly fixable. I would even go as far as to say they're manifestations of the same problems that make IDEs such clumsy tools for humans to use at the moment, which is why we're trying to foist all this annoyance of using them off onto AIs.
The biggest problem, THE problem in this space is that tools we use don't have the language to describe the logic -- the intent -- behind refactorings. If you've never captured the user's intent, you can't learn from it. The ability to capture that intent is absent all the way from the highest level UX right down the lowest level of serialization: the patch format
That's why I believe it's my tech they really need and not Windsurf's -- I'm working on capturing the intent top to bottom.
Recording how is not fruitful, unless the technique is good. In this case, the essence will be extracted, and it will become a checklist or a script.
If you have two itents producing conflicting patches, the merge intent that emerges is good because it brings empathy (understanding the message) and harmony (working code). And that’s why almost everyone says that the code itself doesn’t matter. Only the feature that it brings into play and the the mind that birth it do. It is a medium.
And a merge conflict is nice because it detects overlapping work and the fact that the concerned people should propably meet.
That’s the problem with this stuff. It’s all hearsay.
"Technology no worky. Therefore let's spend $3billion to buy one of the leading tools that already has a million users."
Did you even stop for 5 seconds to think about how completely nonsensical your comment is? The dev-cope is strong here... XD
Vibe coding is just people deeply invested in a deadend technology trying to hype it up.
And I say this as someone that does use AI to a limited capacity as a code assistant.
*the original definition of vibe coding involved using voice to dictate the prompts to AI, I prefer to type.
But a lot of the arguments seem on the surface to be of "No true Scotchman AI" form. Or "you are just holding it wrong" (ref Apple).
Because an IDE has to be tested to work and function correctly. Not "Vibe coded".
Vibe-coding is not software engineering.
It is better to build than to buy.
They don't want to get into specific industries (AI for software development, AI for business process management, AI for knowledge workers). They just do the AI component. Maybe that's changing now, but they still let other people take the risks - you know, people who are passionate about coding. Then when the product is proven, they might acquire it.
The AI coders are different from human coders in what they can and can’t do, they are both profoundly dumb - and extremely technically proficient *at the same time*.
claude can't manage the big picture of what I'm trying to achieve, and claude and the others hallucinate all the time.
I have them all write simple tests for the code, so if they introduce me to a new library, I have tests to prove their assumptions.
And I review everything and tweak everything.
In my day job I work as a lead dev / arch, this isn't must different, working with Claude is like working with a large team of very inconsistent devs, with deep knowledge, but a tenous grasp on reality that struggle with attention. So not that much different from real people?
My dad wrote code generators, back in the 70's and 80's that I did some work on early in my career, those code generators which took a high level description of a program and output mainframe code, made most of the money that paid for raising my siblings and I. From that perspective I've been roboting myself my entire professional life.
Those 2 weeks were absolute hell for me. I estimate I had to rewrite about 90% of the code. Everything was cobbled together and ultimately disposable. Unfortunately, this work was meant to be the first of several milestones and was completely unsalvageable as a foundation for the project.
I'm not opposed to using AI tools, I use them myself. But being on the receiving end and having to deal with someone else's vibe coded rubbish is truly dreadful.
OpenAI will buy Windsurf and then make it free with one of the cheaper OpenAI plans, effectively trying to kill the other IDEs and getting access to data which helps it compete/better against Claude and Gemini.
Google needs to launch its equivalent, and Anthropic needs to figure out their plan.
TBH, I didn’t look deeper since I made the above assumption based on the name.
Only the beginning of the enterprise spending more on AI than consumers. When it's time to stop giving away dollars for pennies, everyone will want to be in the enterprise.
The article rightly points out that OAI is not cost effective for code right now. I imagine they will optimize for the use case now.
Do we have confirmation it was a cash transaction?
1. Opportunity cost of shifting their team to work on a cursor/ firebase studio/ windsurf clone while they are locked into a model arms race might be worth much more than $3 billion if risk losing supremacy
2. They get a million users day one of the deal getting done and instantly own the team + the number 2 best IDE which gives them a massive boost over all their other model competitors like Google and Anthropic. Personally, I still think we are early enough that building makes more sense, so reason 1 still feels the strongest.
3. You get the dedicated windsurf team that can focus 100% on this product while your main model teams can keep cranking
This is missing an important nuance. The valuable data generated through coding copilots isn't the code, but the step by step human-AI interaction to produce the code.
Windsurf and Cursor are effectively crowdsourced data annotation farms which give their owners an edge in providing better coding models. I think this is way more important than talent or software in this deal.
soared•2mo ago
dangus•2mo ago
trollbridge•2mo ago
asadotzler•2mo ago
The biggest scumbag of them all, but hey "I use it for free."
dangus•2mo ago
nativeit•2mo ago
nsonha•2mo ago
trollbridge•2mo ago
AndrewKemendo•2mo ago
I haven’t found as good of an turnkey chat/search/gen interface as CGPT yet unfortunately.
Even self hosted deepseek on an Ada machine doesn’t get there cause the open source interfaces are still bad
soared•2mo ago
itwillnotbeasy•2mo ago
So what makes Google less scummy? A cheaper price? I’m sure that won’t last long – they’ve played this game before with YouTube, Google Reader, and Search: hook users, dominate, then enshittify. Same old Google playbook: good → monopoly → crap.