For some reason, I suspect it does not run on Windows 1.0 to 3.11 either. I also find it strange to think it would run on both Windows ME and Windows NT 3.5, while excluding Windows 95 and Windows 98. Windows NT 3.5 and Windows ME are nearly a decade apart. The Windows subsystem’s software support in Windows NT 3.5 would be a subset of Windows 95/98.
Using Windows 2000 is like using a well-crafted Linux distro. Things just work.
I also remember 2000 as the only rock solid Windows release, and I never had to reinstall it. XP was very close to that after it fully matured, but nothing feels like 2000.
2000s kernel was one of its better features, but lack of blingy GUI was also helping in its stability IMHO.
In hindsight, the progress Microsoft made in the ten years between Windows 3.0 (1990) and Windows 2000 seems incredible. They transitioned from a 16-bit shell running on top of DOS to a fully-fledged operating system with a hardware abstraction layer, preemptive multitasking, permissions, a registry, proper device drivers etc.
Twenty-five years later, there has been basically no progress.
At a minimum, I would have expected something like the Knowledge Navigator
Windows NT, which was developed by people (Dave Cutler et al.) who knew how to design and build operating systems (VMS, etc.).
Windows 2000 is my favorite release ever, but anecdotally, I can deny the "no crashes" claim. Sure it was rare, but I had my share of BSODs and weird behavior on it. Still much more solid than... pretty much every other release.
To be fair, I have old MacOS laptops that are my wife's laptops, we keep them around because they still turn on, and they have all her old files (I've backed it all up several different ways for her), but I never go on the web with any of the browsers installed on those systems.
compared to what, Linux? the BSDs? Solaris? OS/2 didn't achieve market success but it added major feature subsystems at the same brisk pace.
That exposure allowed them to see how valuable Dave Cutler's PRISM team would be in a total redesign in melding VMS and (whatever tolerable) UNIX features into a new kernel, but focusing it upon Win32.
There were OS/2 and POSIX emulation layers also, but these were obviously second class.
Better list the complete list of versions where it has been tested, like "Windows XP/7/8/10/11"...
Today in 2025, "It runs on all versions of Windows, except Win95 and Win98" comes across as a poetic way to say "we make an effort to support older computers running older versions of Windows."
To be honest, though, I very much doubt that anyone has fully tested either that claim or what the headlined article itself claims. A quick look at the source turns up things that require the full Windows NT security model, wide character versions of the API, and threads.
It probably does not run on any version of DOS+Windows, and "except Win95 and Win98" in the headlined article is likely a fumbled way of saying that, which didn't account for those not being the only versions of DOS+Windows that exist.
Win32s was for Windows 3.x only
Win32 for 9x/Me was originally called Win32c, but then Microsoft renamed it to just plain Win32, despite the fact that name was shared by the much more complete NT-based implementation.
It won't. I see lots of calls to CreateThread/etc in the source. Win32s didn't support threads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_Linux
Interestingly, Wikipedia claims that User-mode Linux inspired Cooperative Linux.
Maybe UML can run on top of MinC?
Does MinC accepts ELF linux binaries?
> MinC is a tiny kernel which runs on Windows. The rest of the software was taken verbatim from OpenBSD, version 6.1. This means that by installing MinC, you run OpenBSD on your Windows machine at native speed.
How does it run this kernel? Presumably (?) it's running in user space, so how do these other tools communicate with it? Are they native(ish) Windows binaries like those built for Cygwin?
I suspect this could be an ingenious technical achievement but it's just hard to tell what exactly it is.
Looking at the source code[1], it appears to be analogous to MinGW in the MinGW:GNU/Linux:Windows relationship, but replace with MinC:BSD:Windows. In other words, a minimal user-mode layer that presents BSD headers (and therefore BSD symbols, macros, and types), libraries, and core utils to end-users, thus abstracting over MSVC†.
EDIT: replace 'MinGW' with 'Cygwin' above. So it is Cygwin.
I'd say calling it a 'kernel' is quite a stretch—there is not much that runs in kernel-mode, and everything runs atop the NT kernel which does the actual 'kernel'y stuff.
[1]: https://github.com/dboland/minc
†: Until one wants to use very recent and very nice Microsoft libraries[2][3], and these fail spectacularly because MinGW doesn't know about nice MSVC-specific stuff like SAL annotations[4].
[2]: https://github.com/microsoft/wil
[3]: https://github.com/Azure/azure-sdk-for-cpp
[4]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/cpp/c-runtime-library/sal-...
Are you getting MinGW mixed up with Cygwin?
MinGW does not emulate Unix-style APIs on Windows. (Actually I think there are exceptions but that is not its general purpose.) Instead, it is a port of tools aimed at Unix-like OSs (e.g., Make, GCC) to Windows so that they can be used to build source code that is already targetted at Windows. For example, source code compiled with MinGW might include a call to the Win32 API CreateProcess(), but cannot include a call to the Posix API fork().
Cygwin, on the other hand, allows compiling source code intended for *nix to native Windows binaries. For example, it compile code that calls fork(), getuid(), stat(), etc. It has that user-mode emulation that you mentioned (e.g. mapping between Unix-style UIDs and Windows SIDs), which happens in cygwin1.dll.
I think you're right, this is probably the BSD equivalent of Cygwin.
That being said... I feel the distinction is very blurred, and even more so with the inclusion of MSYS. It seems very few people use naked MinGW, despite a few distributions[1][2] being available.
For instance, MinGW also provides `unistd.h` and `pthread.h` on top of `windows.h`. Certain distributions of MinGW provide lib{std}c++ instead of MSVC STL. Where does 'build native Windows executables from source files that are already targetted at Windows' stop, and 'allows compiling source code intended for *nix to native Windows binaries' begin?
Also, based on my comment above, MinGW doesn't do a great job at 'already targetted at Windows', because some very core libraries that rely on fundamental Windows-y constructs don't work. Personally I avoid it because of its incompleteness, and just use straight `clang++.exe` from the Windows LLVM release[4], aside a full install of the Windows and MSVC SDKs.
[1]: https://github.com/skeeto/w64devkit
[2]: https://github.com/mstorsjo/llvm-mingw
[3]: https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/releases/download/llvmo...
Anyway, I'm sorry I've distracted away from your core point: as you've said, despite its name, it seems MinC just provides a user-mode API layer, just like Cygwin does.
Side-tracks and tangents are the powerhouse of HN comments ;)
As for MinGW and Cygwin (and all the other *nix-on-Windows stuff), I take a bit more lower-level view than what (developer or user) environments they provide, or what tools they use.
In a nutshell, C++ binaries compiled with MinGW are binary-incompatible with C++ binaries compiled with MSVC, because they are built against different binary interfaces: x86_64-pc-windows-gnu (or x86_64-w64-mingw32, which appears to be a synonym) and x86_64-pc-windows-msvc respectively. The former is the C++ Itanium ABI, the latter is a partially-documented MSVC ABI.
Cygwin is an 'ABI' of its own too, because everything needs to be linked against cygwin1.dll, and when it is missing there is a runtime error. WSL1 and WSL2 from an ABI standpoint are indistinguishable—they are x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu.
This is sort of why we can have LLVM-MinGW, which is the entire LLVM suite and only LLVM binutils (see my parent comment for a link), without nary a GNU binary. It's essentially Clang, built to target the MinGW ABI (this can be built on Windows with MSVC, oddly enough).
Speaking of Linux, every glibc upgrade is essentially a different ABI (for some functions) presented to the developer—so much for Linus' assertion of 'don't break userspace'. Even if the kernel doesn't do it, the entirely user-space C library will do it for him. Oh, and musl libc is yet another ABI.
I have delved too far into the weeds of cross-compilation, and as a result I can't help but absolutely despise everything about the C and C++ ecosystem.
Maybe start with an explanation of what it does without referring to Cygwin? That would be for people unfamiliar with Cygwin. Edit: actually you already did that, but starting off with “not Cygwin” is confusing.
You could also explain how your approach differs from Cygwin, for people who do know it.
"to run in a separate kernel space" You emulated those interrupts, and they really run in a separate kernel space [1]? Or you mean it's emulated as if it runs in a separate kernel space?
If it's really running in kernel mode, as you are literally saying, how is it doing that? Is it running in some virtual machine manager like Hyper-V or as something like a driver in the Windows kernel? How does it interact with the hardware e.g. does it access the same file systems that Windows does, and how does it coordinate that?
Looking at the source code I don't see any references to the Windows WDK / DDK (driver development kit) but a lot of references to user-space Windows API functions. I also don't see most of the actual BSD kernel [2]. For example, could you point me at the process/thread scheduling code (like sched_bsd.c [3])? Are you sure it's a kernel? Are you sure it runs kernel space, not user space after all? It seems like it might actually be an abstraction layer that emulates the user-space BSD system calls but runs in user-mode and make use of (only) the Windows kernel. If so, what do you mean by "emulating an interrupt" - how are you intercepting them? If you're just providing the C API functions to link into the application, and that don't actually trigger those interrupts at all, that is something a lot less ambitious. Still something impressive and worthwhile but you're setting readers up for disappointment if you describe it as something that it isn't.
That is what Cygwin does by the way. It implements POSIX APIs in user space. It does not claim to be a kernel (because it's not) or to run in kernel mode (because it doesn't). The thing is, I can understand you may have chosen the name "MinC is not Cygwin" because it works in roughly the same sort of way as Cygwin but is a different implementation. But the name, along with the description as being "a tiny kernel", suggests that it's not Cygwin because it works in a fundamentally different way, i.e., running the actual BSD kernel in actual kernel mode.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_space_and_kernel_space
[2] Mirror is available at: https://github.com/openbsd/src/tree/master/sys/kern
[3] https://github.com/openbsd/src/blob/master/sys/kern/sched_bs...
MinGW is a GNU toolchain for writing Windows-native software... that happens to be used quite often to compile Unixy non-Windows software, so they added MSYS which is derived from Cygwin and works like Cygwin (a DLL providing POSIX APIs implemented using Windows APIs), to make it easier to compile and run Unixy software unmodified.
WSL is a VM that runs your choice of Linux kernel and distro as a guest OS, and adds integrations with the host system that make it seem much more native than it really is.
Unfortunately this was cripplingly slow for use in e.g. Git, so they moved to a model which is more of a VM.
Particularly for the more complex cases of container APIs, GPU access, desktop integration, etc. Those are solved problems in the VM space and reinventing new solutions at a slightly different layer is not necessarily wise or realistic.
For my use cases, I just want to target unix-like APIs and use bash-isms so I can reuse my build scripts and tooling. I don't really care if the binary format I consume or compile to is different to Linux - as long as my development experience is identical across MacOS, Windows and Linux.
A thin layer on top of Windows that mimics Linux so I can run bash _properly_ is all I really need.
The closest I've come is using Msys2 with zsh and uutils and it is so close but there are still cases where it simply doesn't work. WSL1 was pretty close but it falls short by needing remote development tools and having isolated storage/poor performance interacting with host storage.
WSL2 is DOA for me, I just hand roll my own Linux VM and call it a day.
For example, if you were a Unix archiver extracting a file, you'd call stat() open() write() close() chmod() utimes(). On Linux/BSD that's 1 file open/close, but on Windows, that's 4 file opens/closes because the Windows APIs need an open filehandle, while the POSIX APIs take a filepath. Linux/BSD have LRU caches of filepath->inode because they're designed around these APIs, Windows doesn't. Cygwin has to open/close a Windows filehandle each time because it can't make the calling code pass a filehandle instead.
So it may be more comfortable and familiar, but also Windows APIs are unsympathetic to code designed for Unix originally.
See this talk on how the developers of rustup massively improved their performance on Windows by restructuring their code: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbKGw8MQ0i8
That has to be sarcasm, right?
Then again, I see WSL as a poor man's Linux ("poor man" being a developer in some enterprise who can't pick their tools freely due to some IT policy).
I know conventional VMs do this kind of thing too, but I've always found it more awkward to set it up, you have to install special tools or kernel modules, etc. With WSL it just works out of the box.
The one exception: my God filesystem performance on WSL1 was ass, and not an easy problem to fix
Something like skeeto's w64devkit? https://github.com/skeeto/w64devkit
This is a common confusion. WSL1 is not deprecated, and both WSL1 and WSL2 continue to be developed and supported in parallel by Microsoft.
This is example of bad Microsoft marketing. Maybe they should have added a postfixes instead of numbers: "WSL-native" "WSL-VM" or something like that
By which I mean, completely understandable to pick a version and stick with it. If I were trying to develop a tricky layer replacement that is what I would do. However it is also tempting to try to follow upstream. I wonder if one of obsd's infamous breaking innovations actively interfered with the project.
For those unfamiliar, where Linux has a "don't break user land policy" and this is fine and good for a project like linux. It does mean that the linux project is terrible at handling needed user land breaks. Where OpenBSD's policy is more "we got really good at breaking user land" They are so good that most of the time the users don't notice. But I would not want to try and ship closed source commercial software targeting obsd.
Cygwin itself is really easy to install, you can just copy the folder around, you don't need the installer.
If anybody wondering.
Duration: 00:00:21.20, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 307 kb/s
Stream #0:0[0x1](und): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p(progressive), 960x672, 306 kb/s, 10 fps, 10 tbr, 10240 tbn (default)
Merely as another datum, I did URL surgery to get the prior .webm flavor and it's blank for my FF 137 on macOS so there was obviously something else going on (by blank I mean it had 21 seconds worth of black pixels, not that it didn't play)
Incidentally next week I have to debug one of our tester's laptop - he installed vmware which stopped WSL from running somehow and now neither option works.
I have free access to entire FS, I can run Win32 console tools as well inside bash. If I want true Linux environment, I can always spawn VM and use Xserver on Win32 to work on it (Xming).
Take networking, one of the screenshots shows the output of ifconfig. That teaches you almost nothing about Linux networking, because ifconfig in Linux and OpenBSD are two very different tools, and you'd probably not teach people to use ifconfig on a modern Linux distro. Same for the boot process... rc and systemd are not the same, not even close.
It is a very cool project but almost all references to Linux is wrong.
The word "Linux" only occurs on the page once.
Notably, from a teaching "Unix tools 101" perspective, the difference is super unimportant. If the author's goal is to get students to open a terminal for the first time in their lives (on their Windows laptops!) and type some ls commands and maybe pipe stuff into sed once or twice, they can learn this on a BSD and apply it in any Linux (or the reverse) just fine.
I think the author means it literally. His goal is to teach students some Linux basics, and his method is to put a BSD into their Windows. It's kinda nuts, but you gotta agree it's kinda "mad genuis" nuts.
:-p
Mingw
WSL seems to be new now
Cygwin
And this one.
It's nice, but not perfect. It inherits a lot of problems from Cygwin. File access is still slow (as mentioned in other threads) and symlinks don't behave right (by default making a symlink creates a deep copy of the target, and even NTFS symlinks need to know whether the target is a file or a directory; either way you cannot create a symlink when the target is missing, and this causes rsync to fail, for example.)
MSYS2's strength is as an environment for compiling cross-platform apps for Windows, and I would recommend WSL2 for anything else.
Re: "Cygwin…plus several other environments[+]", the second paragraph of MSYS2's home page summarizes it pretty well:
Despite some of these central parts [Bash and cli tools] being based on Cygwin, the main focus of MSYS2 is to provide a build environment for native Windows software and the Cygwin-using parts are kept at a minimum.
Wouldn't it be better to either teach BSD with current toolset, or to use GNU tools to teach Linux?
It's so easy to run a Linux VM under Windows, I don't understand avoiding it. There's a little to learn, yes, but then you have real Linux as opposed to dealing with the inevitable differences between Linux and any of: Cygwin, MinC, WSL2, or MacOS.
A proud cygwin user myself, with cygwin in the PATH since the 2000s, I recently sideloaded Ubuntu under wsl.
Right now, wsl is my primary terminal app, I've mounted C:\ as /c, added a symlink to bypass the ugly Onedrive default name, and... I'm happy.
Slowly, I removed 90% of the mixed BAT scripts, converted to bash the rest, and I now enjoy it.
As the old timer that I am, I limp around powershell, so no luck with that.
Cygwin on the other hand seems to be slowly dying, as more and more packages are now unsupported/unmaintained, with Redhat apparently willing to smother it at the first viable moment.
Any thought?
damnitbuilds•7h ago
?
serbuvlad•7h ago
blueflow•6h ago
This explains people who argue that Android is not Linux, despite it featuring a Linux kernel and self-identifying as so: They are intending to say that Android is not POSIX.
We need to make POSIX (as concept/word) more popular.
oblio•18m ago
thesuitonym•4h ago
Linux is something else entirely, a student's project to make a MINIX compatible kernel, usually packaged with the GNU operating system, which like BSD aimed to be Unix compatible, but notably is not Unix (It's right there in the name: GNU's Not Unix).
charcircuit•2h ago
It's usually packaged as a part of the Android operating system. GNU hasn't been the popular userspace for a long time.
bornfreddy•45m ago
ryao•4h ago
http://rinkworks.com/stupid/
As an obligatory warning, if you have never seen Computer Stupidities previously, expect to lose a day reading it.
arka2147483647•7h ago
pasc1878•6h ago
Maken•5h ago
mdaniel•4h ago
actionfromafar•7h ago
After all, if you learned to do "linux" on OpenBSD you'd be pretty much at home on Linux, too.
It's a clever bit of SEO, too, mashing in Cygwin, Linux and OpenBSD in the copy.
technothrasher•7h ago
boutell•6h ago
technothrasher•5h ago
red_admiral•6h ago
thingfish•7h ago
roelschroeven•6h ago
WSL requires Windows 10 or 11 though.
cess11•6h ago
I'd also guess 'telemetry' pumps out all one does in WSL, while this might leak less of what the kids are doing.
ryao•5h ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vtc0fy/wsl2_faster_th...
There have been others who observed the same in the past (and with WSL1), although I do not have a list. I recall reading libc telemetry hooks on Windows that are absent as being claimed to be the cause, but I cannot find the page where I read that. The Reddit post has the alternative suggestion that process creation speed is the cause.
robohoe•6h ago
ryao•5h ago