It still pains me that in Colorado one has to play on a sketchy unregulated poker site against what is likely a large number of bots while people can gamble on the lottery, play daily fantasy, and sports bet.
I miss pre-black friday.
rel2thr•8h ago
feels like solvers killed online poker and it can't come back. Theres just no technical solution to prevent using solvers to real-time assist
That being said , its kind of the golden era of live poker right now. Games are growing everywhere.
xhevahir•7h ago
I really doubt live poker is as big as it was twenty-five years ago, when Phil Helmuth was a household name and Hollywood were casting Matt Damon in movies about the sport.
Maxatar•6h ago
Live poker is significantly more popular now than ever. Every major tournament has seen record participants, Vegas has bigger poker rooms than ever before, and I'd say anecdotally local poker clubs are packed compared to anytime I can recall.
serf•4h ago
that's a shame, the coverage is 100x worse than it was.
the ESPN2 streams suck, they seem like they don't know what table they're watching and the commentary is usually below-basic pop-culture and memery, and the WSOP commentators are equally childish and unprofessional.
poster was right though, it seems far from what it was as far as general non-poker interest goes.. maybe the increased size of the poker hall/tournament attendance is evidence of another effect; gambling tends to go up in poor economies.
my .02c: i've seen a lot of my favorite casinos close their poker rooms or convert them in the past five years. my neighborhood games are all mostly dried up, and all of my cohort I network with about poker stuff is essentially still just enjoying 10-20 year old Poker After Dark eps. The coverage sucks and only the huge games or private tables are worth watching, and that's a whole other cash grab. The personalities are largely non-existent, and the ones that try angle don't do that great a job.
It all sounds like sour-grapes nostalgia, and maybe it is to a degree, but it's a common opinion that poker is in a rut lately.
indigodaddy•4h ago
ESPN2? I thought the live coverage is only on PokerGO for the last few years, with the packaged shows broadcast later on CBS Sports channel?
recursive•6h ago
We must have been frequenting very different households.
concerndc1tizen•6h ago
Isn't it trivial for online poker providers to cheat, i.e. manipulate the cards you receive, and have a fake bot player at the table that can be made to win, etc. ?
sejje•6h ago
Short term, yes.
Long term, people store their hand histories and this shows up plainly in analysis.
_heimdall•6h ago
That only catches a subset of ways online poker rooms can cheat.
The server knows what cards everyone is holding. Even if the cards were randomly assigned and weren't changed after the fact, users have no logs of the order of cards remaining in the deck. Its pretty trivial to have software that selects community cards that usually lead to a larger pot.
chowells•6h ago
That's not exactly true. It's a non-trivial but not exactly difficult task to design a fair shuffling cryptographic protocol that every participant can validate after the fact.
On the other hand, that still doesn't prevent cheating in the form of the server providing information to some participants via a different channel. There's nothing cryptography can say about out-of-band communications.
So maybe fair shuffling is cute but ultimately pointless.
pton_xd•4h ago
Wouldn't that show up in a statistical analysis of the community cards? How is your algorithm modifying the community cards advantageously but preserving randomness such that over a large sample size every card shows up at the same frequency? Although it wouldn't be exactly the same, presumably some cards that are less often bet preflop, like a 2, would show up at a slightly higher frequency in the community cards, but still.
The much simpler way to cheat is to just give some players more information. Or, run bots that take up guaranteed payout seats in tournaments and such, which I've heard rumors of happening on certain sites. Or both.
Loughla•6h ago
Any online or electronic gambling. Any at all. You have to expect it to be crooked.
This applies to sanctioned sites, sketchy sites, or physical machines.
The incentive is just too damn high for it not to be a cheated system made up of black boxes.
lowdest•5h ago
Some of the cryptocurrency casinos pioneered having cryptographically signed random sequences that are revealed after the game is over. That way you can confirm that the game was fair. It's not a very popular feature, however, as it's not a major selling point for most people.
throwaway314155•2h ago
I fail to see how that helps considering all digital casinos likely use a similar form of pseudo random number generation and the crypto "guarantees" won't prevent people from using verifiers during play.
Retric•2h ago
That only prevents a small percentage of ways to cheat.
LostMyLogin•8h ago
I miss pre-black friday.
rel2thr•8h ago
That being said , its kind of the golden era of live poker right now. Games are growing everywhere.
xhevahir•7h ago
Maxatar•6h ago
serf•4h ago
the ESPN2 streams suck, they seem like they don't know what table they're watching and the commentary is usually below-basic pop-culture and memery, and the WSOP commentators are equally childish and unprofessional.
poster was right though, it seems far from what it was as far as general non-poker interest goes.. maybe the increased size of the poker hall/tournament attendance is evidence of another effect; gambling tends to go up in poor economies.
my .02c: i've seen a lot of my favorite casinos close their poker rooms or convert them in the past five years. my neighborhood games are all mostly dried up, and all of my cohort I network with about poker stuff is essentially still just enjoying 10-20 year old Poker After Dark eps. The coverage sucks and only the huge games or private tables are worth watching, and that's a whole other cash grab. The personalities are largely non-existent, and the ones that try angle don't do that great a job.
It all sounds like sour-grapes nostalgia, and maybe it is to a degree, but it's a common opinion that poker is in a rut lately.
indigodaddy•4h ago
recursive•6h ago
concerndc1tizen•6h ago
sejje•6h ago
Long term, people store their hand histories and this shows up plainly in analysis.
_heimdall•6h ago
The server knows what cards everyone is holding. Even if the cards were randomly assigned and weren't changed after the fact, users have no logs of the order of cards remaining in the deck. Its pretty trivial to have software that selects community cards that usually lead to a larger pot.
chowells•6h ago
On the other hand, that still doesn't prevent cheating in the form of the server providing information to some participants via a different channel. There's nothing cryptography can say about out-of-band communications.
So maybe fair shuffling is cute but ultimately pointless.
pton_xd•4h ago
The much simpler way to cheat is to just give some players more information. Or, run bots that take up guaranteed payout seats in tournaments and such, which I've heard rumors of happening on certain sites. Or both.
Loughla•6h ago
This applies to sanctioned sites, sketchy sites, or physical machines.
The incentive is just too damn high for it not to be a cheated system made up of black boxes.
lowdest•5h ago
throwaway314155•2h ago
Retric•2h ago