How is this substantively different than using an ApplicativeError or MonadError[0] type class?
> You can “throw” an effect by calling the function, and the function you’re in must declare it can use that effect similar to checked exceptions ...
This would be the declared error type in one of the above type classes along with its `raiseError` method.
> And you can “catch” effects with a handle expression (think of these as try/catch expressions)
That is literally what these type classes provide, with a "handle expression" using `handleError` or `handleErrorWith` (depending on need).
> Algebraic effects1 (a.k.a. effect handlers) are a very useful up-and-coming feature that I personally think will see a huge surge in popularity in the programming languages of tomorrow.
Not only will "algebraic effects" have popularity "in the programming languages of tomorrow", they actually enjoy popularity in programming languages today.
https://typelevel.org/cats/typeclasses/applicativemonaderror...
But apart from that and to answer your question there is an alternative to delimited continuations, and that's undelimited continuations (which essentially requires allocating call frames on the heap).
It can instead do things like "do some work, resume the computation, do some more work."
Or even more invasively, "stash the computation somewhere, return from the handler site, let the rest of the program run for a while, then resume the computation."
Then it would just be (equivalent to) a function call.
It think it's about static vs. dynamic behavior.
In monadic programming you have to implement all the relevant methods in your monad, but with effects you can dynamically install effects handlers wherever you need to override whatever the currently in-effect handler would be.
I could see the combination of the two systems being useful. For example you could use a bespoke IO-compatible monad for testing and sandboxing, and still have effects handlers below which.. can still only invoke your IO-like monad.
You can do that with mtl-style too. It's just more clumsy.
And it is useful to be able to provide these handlers in tests.
Effects are AMAZING
That's what exceptions are.
But effects don't cause you to see huge stack traces in errors because the whole point is that you provide the effect and values expected and the code goes on running.
> That's what exceptions are.
In many contexts I agree. However, the difference here is exceptions are one-way execution control transfers.
Remember what was originally said:
No amount of monad shenanigans is going to allow you to
immediately jump to an effect handler 5 levels up the call
stack, update some local variables in that stack frame, and
then jump back to execution at the same point 5 levels down.
Jumping "5 levels up the call stack", modifying some state, then jumping back "5 levels down" is to me pretty much the definition of a nightmare to reason about.also this kind of non local stack/tree rebinding is one way to implement prolog i believe
https://www.stackage.org/haddock/lts-23.15/transformers-0.6....
https://hackage.haskell.org/package/freer-0.2.4.1
They have enjoyed popularity amongst the Scala FP minority.
They are not broadly popular as they come with an unacceptable amount of downsides i.e. increased complexity, difficult to debug, harder to instantly reason about, uses far more resources etc. I have built many applications using them and the ROI simply isn't there.
It's why Odersky for example didn't just bundle it into the compiler and instead looked at how to achieve the same outcomes in a simpler and more direct way i.e. Gears, Capabilities.
If you're limiting yourself to just a single effect there's probably not much difference, however once you have multiple effects at the same time then explicit support for them starts to become nicer than nesting monads (which requires picking an order and sometimes reorder them due to the output of some functions not matching the exact set or order of monads used by the calling function).
mtl-style (which is where `MonadError` comes from in Haskell), is exactly to defer picking an order, and indeed a handler, until handling time. (I gather the GP was talking about something in Scala, but I guess it's the same.)
The algebraic reason for this is that effects are combined with sum, which is commutative up to isomorphism. While transformers are not naturally commutative, so mtl must write all the commuters as instances.
This, along with the reinterpret functions means that you can quickly spin up custom effects for your program, which do exactly what you need to express your program logic. Then all the glue coddle to make your program interact with the real world becomes a series of handlers, usually refining in several steps until you reach IO.
When I have used mtl, I end up only using the standard monad classes, and then I have to remember the semantics of each one in my domain.
There are a few drawbacks to it, but it is a pretty simple way to get 80% of the ergonomics of algebraic effects (in Haskell).
A related Scala-specific technique for this problem category is employing the Stackable Trait Pattern[0] to provide a functional style AOP[1] mechanism. Done carefully, effects (aspects) can be defined independent of specific logic as well as composed with provable invocation order.
Note that the references cited are for those reading this thread and not assumed to be required for the person addressed.
0 - https://www.artima.com/articles/scalas-stackable-trait-patte...
1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect-oriented_programming
So conditions in Common Lisp? I do love the endless cycle of renaming old ideas
Sometimes making these parallelism hurts more than not having them in the first place
my_function (): Unit can AllErrors =
x = LibraryA.foo ()
y = LibraryB.bar ()
The first thing to note is that there is no indication that foo or bar can fail. You have to lookup their type signature (or at least hover over them in your IDE) to discover that these calls might invoke an error handler.The second thing to note is that, once you ascertain that foo and bar can fail, how do you find the code that will run when they do fail? You would have to traverse the callstack upwards until you find a 'with' expression, then descend into the handler. And this cannot be done statically (i.e. your IDE can't jump to the definition), because my_function might be called from any number of places, each with a different handler.
I do think this is a really neat concept, but I have major reservations about the readability/debuggability of the resulting code.
I believe this can be done statically (that's one of the key points of algebraic effects). It works work essentially the same as "jump to caller", where your ide would give you a selection of options, and you can find which caller/handler is the one you're interested in.
All of what you state is very doable.
I think this is a part of the point: we are able to simply write direct style, and not worry at all about the effectual context.
> how do you find the code that will run when they do fail
AFAIU, this is also the point: you are able to abstract away from any particular implementation of how the effects are handled. The code that will when they fail is determined later, whenever you decide how you want to run it. Just as, in `f : g:(A -> B) -> t(A) -> B` there is no way to find "the" code that will run when `g` is executed, because we are abstracting over any particular implementation of `g`.
What might be a good way to find / navigate to the effectual context quickly? Should we just expect an IDE / LSP color it differently, or something?
Agreed, that's the point I was trying to make.
Though it does add noise, one character of boilerplate to indicate a function call that uses effects seems like the right amount? Functions that use lots of effects will likely have this character on every function call, but that seems like a good indicator that it’s tricky code.
Go uses a single base type (interface) for “expected” errors and panics for errors that aren’t normally caught. I suppose those would be two different effects? For the “expected” errors, some kind of annotation on the function call seems useful.
This is not the case with exception looking code (aka panics) since it escapes normal control flow and I guess makes an error "punch" through stacks as they are unwinded.
A bit like being thrown toward global state. So if we consider panics as side effectful operations, we would have to change go to explicitly declare panics as side effects with a known function signature.
I guess one would want the list of side effects to be part of a function signature for full visibility. I wonder how that would influence backward compatibility.
I work in a .NET world and there many developers have this bad habit of "interface everything", even if it has just 1 concrete implementation; some even do it for DTOs. "Go to implementation" of a method, and you end up in the interface's declaration so you have to jump through additional hoops to get to it. And you're out of luck when the implementation is in another assembly. The IDE _could_ decompile it if it were a direct reference, but it can't find it for you. When you're out of luck, you have to debug and step into it.
But this brings me to dependency injection containers. More powerful ones (e.g., Autofac) can establish hierarchical scopes, where new scopes can (re)define registrations; similar to LISP's dynamically scoped variables. What a service resolves to at run-time depends on the current DI scope hierarchy.
Which brings me to the point: I've realized that effects can be simulated to some degree by injecting an instance of `ISomeEffectHandler` into a class/method and invoking methods on it to cause the effect. How the effect is handled is determined by the current DI registration of `ISomeEffectHandler`, which can be varied dynamically throughout the program.
So instead of writing
void DoSomething(...) {
throw SomeException(...);
}
you establish an error protocol through interface `IErrorConditions` and write void DoSomething(IErrorConditions ec, ...) {
ec.Report(...);
}
(Alternately, inject it as a class member.) Now, the currently installed implementation of `IErrorConditions` can throw, log, or whatever. I haven't fully pursued this line of though with stuff like `yield`.I work on a Java backend that is similar to what you're describing, but Intellij IDEA is smart enough to notice there is exactly one non-test implementation and bring me to its source code.
ILogger and IProgress<T> comes to mind immediately, but IMemoryCache too if you squint at it. It literally just "sets" and "gets" a dictionary of values, which makes it a "state" effect. TimeProvider might be considered an algebraic effect also.
Bit of a tangent, but this really annoys me when I work on TypeScript (which isn't all that often, so maybe there's some trick I'm missing)—clicking through to check out the definition of a library function very often just takes me to a .d.ts file full of type definitions, even if the library is written in TypeScript to begin with.
In an ideal world I probably shouldn't really need to care how a library function is implemented, but the world is far from ideal.
Sounds like you're just criticizing try-catch style error handling, rather than criticizing algebraic effects specifically.
Which, I mean, is perfectly fair to not like this sort of error handling (lack of callsite indication that an exception can be raised). But it's not really a step backward from a vast majority of programming languages. And there are some definite upsides to it as well.
I’m not a fan of how ‘await’ works in JavaScript because accidentally leaving it out causes subtle bugs. But the basic idea that some function calls are simple and return immediately and others are not makes sense.
I agree that await is a nice hint in the code that something more substantial is happening, but ultimately it’s limited and quite opaque.
Great IDE support for algebraic effects would probably include inline hints to show effects.
Maybe some effects should have call sites annotated, like ‘async’, and others should not, like DOM manipulation? It seems like an API design issue. What do you want to call out for extra attention?
That's part of the point: it's dynamic code injection. You can use shallow- or deep-binding strategies for implementing this just as with any dynamic feature. Dynamic means just that bindings are introduced by call frames of callers or callers of callers, etc., so yes, notionally you have to traverse the stack.
> And this cannot be done statically (i.e. your IDE can't jump to the definition),
Correct, because this is a _dynamic_ feature.
However, you are expected not to care. Why? Because you're writing pure code but for the effects it invokes, but those effects could be pure or impure depending on context. Thus your code can be used in prod and hooked up to a mock for testing, where the mock simply interposes effects other than real IO effects.
It's just dependency injection.
You can do this with plain old monads too you know, and that's a much more static feature, but you still need to look way up the call stack to find where _the_ monad you're using might actually be instantiated.
In other words, you get some benefits from these techniques, but you also pay a price. And the price and the benefit are two sides of the same coin: you get to do code injection that lets you do testing and sandboxing, but it becomes less obvious what might be going on.
Does that work out in practice? Genuinely curious if anyone has experience with such systems at scale or in legacy applications where the original authors left long ago. I'm skeptical because in my experience not everything is or can be designed perfectly pure without abstraction leakage. At some point you need to understand all the behavior of a certain sub-system and the less clever the design is the easier that becomes in my experience.
I have to admit I don't understand the second point. If you could statically determine from the definition of foo and bar what code handles their errors, than there would be no reason for foo or bar to error, they could just call the error handling code. If foo and bar return Result sum types and my_function just passes those errors up, it would be no different. You don't know what callers of my_function would do with those errors.
If that's what you're looking for you might want to try my Haskell effects library Bluefin (it's not an "algebraic" effects library, though). The equivalent code would be
myFunction :: e :> es -> Exception String e -> Eff es r
myFunction ex = do
x <- LibraryA.foo ex
y <- LibraryB.foo ex
z <- LibraryC.foo
...
This answers the first part of your question: the presence of `ex` argument (an `Exception String` handle) shows that a String-value exception can be thrown wherever they are used. For example, we know that `LibraryC.foo` does not throw that exception.It also answers the second part of your question: the code that runs on failure is exactly the code that created the `Exception String` handle. Any exception arising from that handle is always caught where the handle was created, and nowhere else. For example, it could be here:
try $ \ex -> do
v <- myFunction ex
...
`try` catches the exception and turns into into the `Left` branch of a Haskell `Either` type. Or it could be here: myFunction :: e :> es -> Exception String e -> Eff es r
myFunction ex = do
catch
(\ex2 -> do
x <- LibraryA.foo ex
y <- LibraryB.foo ex2
z <- LibraryC.foo
...)
(\errMsg -> logErr errMsg)
So the exception thrown by `LibraryB.foo` is always handled with the `logErr` (and nowhere else), and the exception thrown by `LibraryA.foo` is always handled by the exception handler higher up which created `ex` (and nowhere else).Let me know what you think!
I'm a bit confused at the distinction of "algebraic" vs "non-algebraic" effects. Think you can give a brief example of what you mean?
Also, I know you've taken a slightly different direction with Bluefin than other Haskell effects libraries (effects as values vs types). Is this related to the distinction above?
I don't fully understand what exactly "algebraic" effects are, but I think they're something like the entirety of effects that can safely be implemented with delimited continuations. Since Bluefin doesn't use delimited continuations (just the traditional standard GHC RTS effects: exceptions, state, IO, threads) it's not "algebraic".
> Also, I know you've taken a slightly different direction with Bluefin than other Haskell effects libraries (effects as values vs types). Is this related to the distinction above?
No, it's an orthogonal axis. Here's an experimental Bluefin-style API over delimited continuations (i.e. supports all algebraic effects): https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bluefin-algae
I don't see how this is different from traditional programming.
> I do think this is a really neat concept, but I have major reservations about the readability/debuggability of the resulting code.
I don't think that readability will be harmed, but I can understand your concerns about debugging. I feel that cluttering the code with consistency/error checks everywhere actually harms much more readability.
This is not a meaningful drawback. It's 2025. IDEs have existed for almost half of a century. Crippling programming languages because you want to shove everything into the source code (in a text-based format no less) is insane. Let's actually try to move programming into the 21st century, please.
> And this cannot be done statically (i.e. your IDE can't jump to the definition), because my_function might be called from any number of places, each with a different handler.
This is wrong. Your IDE can find call sites, build a call graph, and show you the places (parents in the call graph) where an error might be handled for a particular function.
Shows clearly why they will never be a mainstream concept. The value proposition is only there when you have more elaborate concurrency needs. But that is a tiny fraction of the applications most people are writing today.
Highly unlikely. JavaScript simply isn't a language built with this kind of evaluation model in mind, so an external library introducing completely orthogonal concepts surely should not be modeled as "most friendly". Don't get me wrong — Effect can be great! But the library also deliberately does not market itself as simple, rather as modular and multi-faceted, a "toolbox" from which developers may (should?) choose some tools and omit others.
A language that supports effects first-hand, like the proposed "Ante", would provide a much a more expressive, possibly simpler, and definitely friendlier approach than TS effect ever could.
I see the value every day when I look at a shitty piece of JavaScript or Python code that secretly modifies some global state behind the scenes.
Or when I want to do dependency injection without resorting to frameworks doing some magic. Yes, I could drill my dependencies through the entire call stack, and often do because it's nicely explicit. But stuff like `logger` really doesn't belong in the function signature if it can be avoided.
I can’t have a hook that talks to a real API in one environment but to a fake one in another. I’d have to use Jest style mocking, which is more like monkey patching.
From the point of view of a React end user, there’s also no list of effects that I can access. I can’t see which effects or hooks a component carries around, which ones weren’t yet evaluated, and so on.
It would be cool to see how generators will be implemented with algebraic effects.
But yes, you can implement single-shot effects with generators.
What about state modified via closures?
Or is it only for system side-effects like filesystem operations?
The compiler can't. It is up to the programmer to make sure that a database effect doesn't, say for sake of example, write out to a file also.
So in the end this is just a novel new way to organise code.
That has to require some help from the tooling/IDE.
But I found these two articles [1] about an earlier dynamic version of Eff (the new version is statically typed), which explains the idea nicely without introducing types or categories (well, they use "free algebra" and "unique homomorphism", just think "terms" and "evaluation" instead). I find it particularly intriguing that what Andrej Bauer describes there as "parameterised operation with generalised arity", I would just call an abstraction of shape [0, 1] (see [2]). So this might be helpful for using concepts from algebraic effects to turn abstraction algebra into a programming language.
[1] https://math.andrej.com/2010/09/27/programming-with-effects-...
In normal programming languages, I see static type systems as a necessary evil: TypeScript is better than JavaScript, as long as you don't confuse types with terms...
But in a logic, types are superfluous: You already have a notion of truth, and types just overcomplicate things. That doesn't mean that you cannot have mathematical objects x and A → B, such that x ∈ A → B, of course. Here you can indeed use terms instead of types.
So in a logic, I think types represent a form of premature optimisation of the language that invariants are expressed in.
AL doesn’t make types obsolete -- it just relocates the same constraints into another formalism. You still have types, you’re just not calling them that.
No, sorry, I really don't have types. Maybe trying to reduce all approaches to logic to curry-howard is the very reductive view here.
Dismissing Curry–Howard without addressing its foundational and extricable relevance to computation and logic isn’t a rebuttal.
I am not saying that types cannot do this work. I am saying that to do this work you don't need types, and AL is the proof for that. Well, first-order logic is already the proof for that, but it doesn't have general binders.
Now, you are saying, whenever this work is done, it is Curry-Howard, but that is just plain wrong. Curry-Howard has a specific meaning, maybe read up on it.
You don’t get to do type-like work, then deny the structural analogy just because you renamed the machinery. It’s a type system built while insisting type systems are obsolete.
What is commonly used is a TypeOK predicate that verifies that your variables have the expected type. This is fine, except your intermediate values can still end up being of mis-intended values, so you won't spot the mistake until you evaluate the TypeOK predicate, and not at all if the checker doesn't visit the right corners of the state space. At least TypeOK can be much more expressive than any type system.
There is a new project in the same domain called Quint, it has types.
div 7 0 = ⊥,
and plus 3 ⊥ = ⊥,
so plus 3 (div 7 0) = ⊥.
In principle, that could be done in TLA+ as well, I would guess. So you would have to prove a predicate Defined, where Defined x just means x ≠ ⊥.[1] Actually, it is probably rather the other way around: Make sure that if your expression e is well-defined under certain preconditions, that you can then prove e ≠ ⊥ under the same preconditions.
Moving the whole thing to dynamic behavior doesn't tell us anything new, does it? Lisps have been tagged & checked for decades?
I would suggest that abstraction logic compares to type theory as Lisp compares to Standard ML; but that is just an analogy and not precise.
Otherwise, you're just another academic blowhard using a thin veneer of formalism to justify your own motivated reasoning.
Can you clarify what you mean by that? Dependent types or more practically refinement types (à la F*) can embed arbitrary predicates.
I am not sure if I misunderstand you. Types are for domain, real world semantics, they help to disambiguate human language, they make context explicit which humans just assume when they talk about their domain.
Logic is abstract. If you implied people should be able to express a type system in their host language, that would be interesting. I can see something like Prolog as type annotations, embedded in any programming language, it would give tons of flexibility, but then you shift quite some burden onto the programmer.
Has this idea been tried?
The idea to use predicates instead of types has been tried many times; the main problem (I think) is that you still need a nice way of binding variables, and types seem the only way to do so, so you will introduce types anyway, and what is the point then? The nice thing about AL is that you can have a general variable binding mechanism without having to introduce types.
What am I missing?
> — a notational reshuffling of well-trod ideas in type theory
Always fun to encounter disparaging comments (I see that you deleted the other one in the other thread), but I wrote this answer more for the other readers than for you.
I can't imagine why anyone would ever treat your bombastic proclamations about type theory with suspicion.
I'm just your average programmer, not into abstract logic stuff, but got curious.
I'm also curious what they intended, but there aren't many options:
1. The question is ill-posed. The input types are too broad.
2. You must extend ℝ with at least one additional point representing the result. Every choice is bad for a number of reasons (e.g., you no longer have multiplicative inverses and might not even have well-defined addition or subtraction on the resulting set). Some are easier to work with than others. A dedicated `undefined` value is usually easy enough to work with, though sometimes a single "infinity" isn't terrible (if you consider negative infinities it gets more terrible).
3. You arbitrarily choose some real-valued result. Basically every theorem or application considering division now doesn't have to special-case zero (because x/0 is defined) but still has to special-case zero (because every choice is wrong for most use cases), leading to no real improvements.
- At x:=0, every real is a reasonable limit for some path through the euclidean plane to (0,0). Ignore the 0/0 problem, then x/0 still has either positive or negative infinity as reasonable choices. Suppose you choose a different extension like only having a single point at infinity; then you give up other properties like being able to add and subtract all members of the set you're considering.
- However you define x/0, it still doesn't work as a multiplicative inverse for arbitrary x.
A good question to ask is why you want to compute x/0 in the first place. It is, e.g., sometimes true that doing so allows you to compute results arithmetically and ignore intermediate infinities. Doing so is usually dangerous though, since your intuition no longer lines up with the actual properties of the system, and most techniques you might want to apply are no longer valid. Certain definitions are more amenable to being situationally useful (like the one-point compactification of the reals), but without a goal in mind the definition you choose is unlikely to be any better than either treating division as a non-total function (not actually defined on all of ℝ), or, equivalently, considering its output to be ℝ extended with {undefined}.
Not that it directly applies to your question, ℝ typically does not include infinity. ℝ⁺ is one symbol sometimes used for representing the reals with two infinities, though notation varies both for that and the one-point compactification.
This is all a bit too abstract for me right now but seems interesting.
I wouldn't call it vibe coding; I just have much more time to focus on the spec than on the code. I'd call that a sufficiently smart compiler.
But I share the concerns of others about the downsides of dependency injection. And this is DI on steroids.
For testing, I much prefer to “override” (mock) the single concrete implementation in the test environment, rather than to lose the static caller -> callee relationship in non-test code.
My question is - can a mainstream language adopt the algebraic effects (handlers?) without creating deep confusion or a new language should be built from the ground up building on top of these abstractions in some form.
Algebraic Effect is a variant/enhancement of dependency injection formalized into a language. Dependency injection has massive usage in the wild for a long time with just library implementation.
Every library so far that has implemented effects e.g. Cats, ZIO, Effects has done so to make concurrency easier and safer.
Not for dependency injection.
React hooks are different from full-blown algebraic effects in a couple ways:
- The handler for the hooks are already implemented for you, and you can't swap it out for a different handler. For example, the implementation of useState is fixed, and you can't swap it out for a different implementation.
- They're not multishot resumption. When a hook is raised, the handler can only handle it and resume it once. In a full-blown algebraic effect, the handler can resume the same raised effect multiple times.
- Algebraic effects usually come bundled together. Those effects have specific compositional rules with each other. That's how they're algebraic.
Let's say I'm building a web server, my endpoint handler now needs to declare that it can call the database, call the s3, throw x, y and z... And same story for most of the functions it calls itself. You solved the "coloration problem" at the cost of adding a thousand colors.
Checked exceptions are the ideal error handling (imho) but no one uses them properly because it's a hassle declaring every error types a function may return. And adding an exception to a function means you need to add/handle it in many of its callers, and their callers in turn, etc.
- Only your outermost application entry-point will need to stack all effects; you'll wire the server, client, DB and so on in your `main` method that returns Unit \ (IO & Abort & Result & Transaction & Env ...). In specific modules individual functions should use only the narrowest effect.
- Good ergonomics for type polymorphism and type inference are obviously paramount to adding algebraic effects in a way that is minimally invasive. It's obviously not trivial and mostly a PL research field at this point, but existing implementations show that there's potential for better DX compared to alternatives (monadic effect systems, mostly).
Reading through, I have some concerns about usability in larger projects, mainly because of "jumping around".
> Algebraic effects can also make designing cleaner APIs easier.
This is debatable. It adds a layer of indirection (which I concede is present in many real non-AE codebases).
My main concern is: When I put a breakpoint in code, how do I figure out where the object I work with was created? With explicit passing, I can go up and down the stack trace, and can find it. But with AE composition, it can be hard to find the instantiation source -- you have to jump around, leading to yo-yo problem [1].
I don't have personal experience with AE, but with python generators, which the article says they are the same (resp. AE can be used to implement generators). Working through large complex generator expressions was very tedious and error-prone in my experience.
> And we can use this to help clean up code that uses one or more context objects.
The functions involved still need to write `can Use Strings` in their signature. From practical point of view, I fail to see the difference between explicitly passing strings and adding the `can Use Strings` signature -- when you want add passing extra context to existing functions, you still need to go to all of them and add the appropriate plumbing.
---
As I understand it, AE on low level is implemented as a longjmp instruction with register handling (so you can resume). Given this, it is likely inevitable that in a code base where you have lots of AE, composing in various ways, you can get to a severe yo-yo problem, and getting really lost in what is the code doing. This is probably not so severe on a single-person project, but in larger teams where you don't have the codebase in your head, this can be huge efficiency problem.
Btw. if someone understands how AE deal with memory allocations for resuming, I'd be very interested in a good link for reading, thank you!
Couldn't the plumbing be reduced significantly through type inference? I.e. the function that invokes an effect will need the signature, the callers higher up the chain won't.
Also, even if you had to adapt all the signatures, at least you wouldn't have to adjust the call sites themselves to pass in the context every single time.
- You wouldn't have to edit the body of the function to thread through the parameter. - The `can Use Strings` part can be inferred (and in Ante's case, it is my goal to have the compiler write in inferred types for you so that top-level definitions can be inferred if desired but still annotated when committed for code review). - Most notably, the `can Use Strings` can be included in a type alias. You could have an alias `MyEffects = can Use Strings, Throw FooError`, etc for the effects commonly used in your program. If your state type is used pervasively throughout, this could be a good option. When you have such an alias it also means you'd just be editing the alias rather than every function individually.
Generally though, while I think the passing around of state through effects can be useful it isn't the most convincing use of effects. I mention it more for "here's another benefit they can have" rather than "here's this amazing reason you should definitely use them for"
I actually find it quite convincing, even if it might not be the main use case. Nowadays in imperative languages there are countless popular frameworks that resort to using & manipulating global state behind the scenes because drilling context through the call stack by hand is painful. Unfortunately, this makes understanding code much more difficult and testing it even more so.
Not quite. setjmp/lonjmp as they exist in C at least can jump up the call stack but not back down. I mention this at the end of the article but each language implements algebraic effects differently, and efficiency has improved in recent years. Languages can also optimize the effect differently based on how the handler is defined:
- Handlers which are tail-resumptive can implement the effect as a normal closure call.
- Handlers which don't call resume can be implemented as an exception or just return an error value at every step until the function exits the handler.
- Handlers which perform work after resume is called (e.g. `| my_effect x -> foo (); resume (); bar ()` can be implemented with e.g. segmented call stacks.
- Handlers where resume is called multiple times need an equivalent of a delimited continuation.
Another way to implement these generally is to transform the effects into monads. For any set of effects you can translate it into a monad transformer where each effect is its own monad, or the free monad can be used as well. The cost in this approach is often from boxing closures passed to the bind function.
Koka has its own approach where it translates effects to capability passing then bubbles them up to the handler (returns an error value until it gets to the handler).
With just a few restrictions you can even specialize effects & handlers out of the program completely. This is what Effekt does.
There really are a lot of options here. I have some links at the end of the article in the foot notes on papers for Koka and Effekt that implement the approaches above if you're interested.
The "algebraic" part of algebraic effects is that the effects also come with implicit compositional rules that say how you can put them together. You can design a family effects with rules like commutativity and associativity, so that you can be sure of how to compose them.
of course I am hoping to get corrected on this.
Think of it more like an interface. It turns out that many common patterns - async, IO, yielding can all be expressed with a handle - and the effect can be represented in the signature.
This allows the code to have which effect its ran in, at runtime - other commenters pointed out its very similar to dependency injection.
Then the implementation of these side effect is done elsewhere and assigned as the capability of a function, which is now deemed as impure by the compiler.
You're right, it looks a bit like an interface.
Do you also feel like effect is “or or nothing”? Or could you enclose certain parts of a program into effect parts?
Full-blown algebraic effects are multi-shot, meaning that you can "resume the thrown exception" multiple times. The only way to do that is through delimited continuations, which isn't available as a feature in most languages, and can't be emulated by other language features--unless you reimplement the call stack in userland.
In addition, the handler can decide not to resume a raised effect at all, at which point it can exit. When it does, it's as if all the computation that it did when the handler wrapped the computation didn't happen at all. It's a way of doing backtracking. This is also possible due to delimited continuations.
Both are things that you can't do in the effects library.
What am I missing?
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_jp87gxILE [2] https://motioncanvas.io/
function* greeter() {
const name = yield "What's your name?"
yield `Hello, ${name}!`
}
const gen = greeter()
console.log(gen.next().value)
console.log(gen.next("Alice").value)
For example, a function annotated with say `query_db(): User can Datebase` means the function can call database and the caller must provide a `Database` handler to call the `query_db`.
The constraint of what can do and not is pretty popular in other programming fields, most notably, NextJS. A server component CANNOT use client feature and a client component CANNOt access server db.
But this gets back to what I was saying about generalization - the way I would implement what you're talking about is with coroutines and dynamic scoping. I'm still missing how AE is more general and not something you implement on top of other building blocks.
Would there really be colors?
I mean sure, the caller of an effectful function will either have to handle the effect or become effectful itself, so in this sense effectfulness is infectious.
However, while a function might use the `await` effect, when calling the function you could also just define the effect handler so as to block, instead of defering the task and jumping back to the event loop. In other words, wouldn't this solve the issue of colors? One would simply define all possibly blocking functions as await-effectful. Whether or not they actually await / run asynchronously would be up to the caller.
And everything working with generic function objects would have to lug around all these effects, unless the language has a very solid 'effect polymorphism' story.
That seems to be the premise, yeah. (See also the comment by the Ante author on polymorphism somewhere here in the thread.)
> The problem is, if you're using them for capabilities, it wouldn't just be an 'Await' effect: it would be an 'AwaitDatabase' effect and an 'AwaitFilesystem' effect and an 'AwaitNetwork' effect and an 'AwaitSubprocess' effect and....
I have to admit I will have to think about this a bit. It's already late over here and my brain is no longer working. :)
Personally, I don't see a whole lot of value in that, with how unpredictable execution could get. I'd rather write a function that explicitly returns another function to be called multiple times. (Or some equivalent, e.g., a function that returns an iterator.)
charcircuit•1mo ago
yen223•1mo ago
It's interesting to see how things can work if the language itself was designed to support dependency injection from the get-go. Algebraic effects is one of the ways to achieve that.
vlovich123•1mo ago
threeseed•1mo ago
For example with Scala we have ZIO which is an effect system where you wrap all your code in their type e.g. getName(): ZIO[String]. And it doesn't matter if getName returns immediately or in the future which is nice.
But then the problem is that you can't use normal operators e.g. for/while/if-else you need to use their versions e.g. ZIO.if / ZIO.repeat.
So you don't have the colour problem because everything is their colour.
OtomotO•1mo ago
threeseed•1mo ago
So it doesn't seem to matter whether it's a library or in the language.
Either everything is an effect. Or you have to deal with two worlds of code: effects and non-effects.
vlovich123•1mo ago
Still seems better to me if you collapse colors >= 1 into a single language system.
sullyj3•1mo ago
jfecher•1mo ago
charcircuit•1mo ago
Which is why I was asking for that interesting thing to be written in the article on why it would better.
cryptonector•1mo ago
1) Testing. Write pure code with "effects" but, while in production the effects are real interactions with the real world, in testing they are mocked. This allows you to write pure code that does I/O, as opposed to writing pure code that doesn't do I/O and needs a procedural shell around it that does do the I/O -- you get to write tests for more of your code this way.
2) Sandboxing. Like in (1), but where your mock isn't a mock but a firewall that limits what the code can do.
(2) is a highly-desirable use-case. Think of it as a mitigation for supply-chain vulnerabilities. Think of log4j.
Both of these are doable with monads as it is. Effects can be more ergonomic. But they're also more dynamic, which complicates the implementations. Dynamic features are always more costly than static features.
charcircuit•1mo ago
For example if you were in a meeting with Oracle to try and convince them to invest 100 million dollars for adding algebraic effects to Java and its ecosystem how would you convince them it would be providing enough value to developers to justify it over some other improvement they may want to do.
For example, "Writing mocks for tests using algebraic effects is better than using jmock because ..."
cryptonector•1mo ago
threeseed•1mo ago
"A user has made an API call. I want you to in parallel race two concurrent tasks: check if the data is in (1) cache and (2) database. Whichever returns fastest return to the user. Otherwise kill the other task mid-flight and make sure the connection resources for both are cleaned up".
This is trivial with an effect systems like ZIO and it will work flawlessly. That's the benefit of effect systems. Use cases like this are made easy.
But now with JVM Virtual Threads there are frameworks like Ox: https://github.com/softwaremill/ox which allow you to achieve the same thing without effects. And how many times do you really need that sort of capability ?
iamwil•1mo ago
This is just like the story of the blind men with the elephant. The elephant (algebraic effects) is a whole other different beast, but to help the beginner understand the first parts of it, we say the truck is like a snake (resumable exceptions) or that the ear is like a fan (dependency injection).
Algebraic effects are a new type of control flow. When an effect is raised, the handler (defined further up the call stack) has several options:
- handle the effect and resume the computation where the effect was raised.
- handle the effect, but resume the computation multiple times back to where the effect was raised.
- decide not to handle the effect, and just exit, at which point the execution resumes right when the handler was called further up the stack, and everything executed since then is as if it never happened. This is a way of doing back tracking.
In addition, what's algebraic about algebraic effects is that they usually come in a group, and are designed with a compositional algebra, so you can safely compose them in different ways. A common one is commutativity, so it doesn't matter what order you execute them in. Of course, not all algebraic effects have commutativity, as that has to be designed by the implementer. Monads are different in that they often don't compose without monad transformers, so that can be finicky.
Hence, with all these things together, you can use them to implement control flow in other languages that are typically baked into the language, such as exceptions, coroutines, generators, async/await, probabilistic programming, backtracking search, dependency injection. You might also invent your own!
But most commonly here, we use them to separate the *intent* to do a side-effect from the actual execution of the side-effect. That way, side-effects are controlled, and it becomes easier to reason about our code.