And at the end of the day, it’s just so much fun to see someone else having so much fun. He’s like a kid in a candy store and that excitement is contagious. After reading every one of his blog posts, I’m inspired to go play with LLMs in some new and interesting way.
Thank you Simon!
You wouldn't compare different random number generators by taking one sample from each and then concluding that generator 5 generates the highest numbers...
Would be nicer to run the comparison with 10 images (or more) for each LLM and then average.
In that case we'd expect a human with perfect drawing skills and perfect knowledge about bikes and birds to output such a simple drawing correctly 100% of the time.
In any case, even if a model is probabilistic, if it had correctly learned the relevant knowledge you'd expect the output to be perfect because it would serve to lower the model's loss. These outputs clearly indicate flawed knowledge.
Look upon these works, ye mighty, and despair: https://www.gianlucagimini.it/portfolio-item/velocipedia/
Most humans do not have perfect drawing skills and perfect knowledge about bikes and birds, they do not output such a simple drawing correctly 100% of the time.
"Average human" is a much lower bar than most people want to believe, mainly because most of us are average on most skills, and also overestimate our own competence — the modal human has just a handful of things they're good at, and one of those is the language they use, another is their day job.
Most of us can't draw, and demonstrably can't remember (or figure out from first principles) how a bike works. But this also applies to "smart" subsets of the population: physicists have https://xkcd.com/793/, and there's this famous rocket scientist who weighed in on rescuing kids from a flooded cave, they come up with some nonsense about a submarine.
Ask 100 random people to draw a bike and in 10 minutes and they’ll on average suck while still beating the LLM’s here. Give em an incentive and 10 months and the average person is going to be able to make at least one quite decent drawing of a bike.
The cost and speed advantage of LLM’s is real as long as you’re fine with extremely low quality. Ask a model for 10,000 drawings so you can pick the best and you get a marginal improvements based on random chance at a steep price.
Call it wikipediaslop.org
I actually don't think I've seen a single correct svg drawing for that prompt.
I've been considering an expanded version of this where each model outputs ten images, then a vision model helps pick the "best" of those to represent that model in a further competition with other models.
(Then I would also expand the judging panel to three vision LLMs from different model families which vote on each round... partly because it will be interesting to track cases where the judges disagree.)
I'm not sure if it's worth me doing that though since the whole "benchmark" is pretty silly. I'm on the fence.
Any concerns about open source “AI celebrity talks” like yours can be used in contexts that would allow LLM models to optimize their market share in ways that we can’t imagine yet?
Your talk might influence the funding of AI startups.
#butterflyEffect
Simon, hope you are comfortable in your new role of AI Celebrity.
Karpathy used it as an example in a recent interview: https://www.msn.com/en-in/health/other/ai-expert-asks-grok-3...
The number of subject-verb-objects are near infinite. All are imaginable, but most are not plausible. A plausibility machine (LLM) will struggle with the implausible, until it can abstract well.
Until there is enough unique/new subject-verb-objects examples/benchmarks so the trained model actually generalized it just like you did. (Public) Benchmarks needs to constantly evolve, otherwise they stop being useful.
clarification: I enjoyed the pelican on a bike and don't think it's that bad =p
Also, as the old saying goes, the only thing worse than using benchmarks is not using benchmarks.
people expect LLMs to say "correct" stuff on the first attempt, not 10000 attempts.
Yet, these people are perfectly OK with cherry-picked success stories on youtube + advertisements, while being extremely vehement about this simple experiment...
...well maybe these people rode the LLM hype-train too early, and are desperate to defend LLMs lest their investment go poof?
obligatory hype-graph classic: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Ga...
And there is no reason that these models need to be non-deterministic.
So there’s still the question of how controllable the LLM really is. If you change a prompt slightly, how unpredictable is the change? That can’t be tested with one prompt.
My thoughts too. It's more accurate to label LLMs as non-deterministic instead of "probablistic".
I get it was way easier to do and that doing it took pennies and no time. But I would have loved it if he'd tried alternate methods of judging and seen what the results were.
Other ways:
* wisdom of the crowds (have people vote on it)
* wisdom of the experts (send the pelican images to a few dozen artists or ornithologists)
* wisdom of the LLMs (use more than one LLM)
Would have been neat to see what the human consensus was and if it differed from the LLM consensus
Anyway, great talk!
It's one of my favorite local models right now, I'm not sure how I missed it when I was reviewing my highlights of the last six months.
https://www.oneusefulthing.org/p/the-recent-history-of-ai-in...
Thanks for sharing.
> Claude 4 will rat you out to the feds!
>If you expose it to evidence of malfeasance in your company, and you tell it it should act ethically, and you give it the ability to send email, it’ll rat you out.
> But it’s not just Claude. Theo Browne put together a new benchmark called SnitchBench, inspired by the Claude 4 System Card.
> It turns out nearly all of the models do the same thing.
Say what you want about Facebook but at least they released their flagship model fully open.
Besides, it's so heavily context-dependent that you really need your own private benchmarks to make head or tails out of this whole thing.
The prompt is "Generate an SVG of a pelican riding a bicycle" and you're supposed to write it by hand, so no graphical editor. The specification is here: https://www.w3.org/TR/SVG2/
I'm fairly certain I'd lose interest in getting it right before I got something better than most of those.
There are 31 posts listed under "pelican-riding-a-bicycle" in case you wanna inspect the methodology even closer: https://simonwillison.net/tags/pelican-riding-a-bicycle/
Generate an SVG of a pelican riding a bicycle
Currently none of the model APIs enable tools by designers you ask them to, so this method excludes the use of additional tools.
It certainly would, and it would cost at minimum an hour of the human programmer's time at $50+/hr. Claude does it in seconds for pennies.
Awkwardly, I never heard of it until now. I was aware that at some point they added ability to generate images to the app, but I never realized it was a major thing (plus I already had an offline stable diffusion app on my phone, so it felt less of an upgrade to me personally). With so much AI news each week, feels like unless you're really invested in the space, it's almost impossible to not accidentally miss or dismiss some big release.
It really is incredible.
none of these ephemeral fads are any indication of quality, longevity, legitimacy, interest, substance, endurance, prestige, relevance, credibility, allure, staying-power, refinement, or depth.
Ape NFTs are… ape NFTs. Useless. Pointless. Negative value for most people.
I think it's broken out into mainstream adoption and is going to stay there.
It reminds me a little of Napster. The Napster UI was terrible, but it let people do something they had never been able to do before: listen to any piece of music ever released, on-demand. As a result people with almost no interest in technology at all were learning how to use it.
Most people have never had the ability to turn a photo of their kids into a cute cartoon before, and it turns out that's something they really want to be able to do.
This measure of LLM capability could be extended by taking it into the 3D domain.
That is, having the model write Python code for Blender, then running blender in headless mode behind an API.
The talk hints at this but one shot prompting likely won’t be a broad enough measurement of capability by this time next year. (Or perhaps now, even)
So the test could also include an agentic portion that includes consultation of the latest blender documentation or even use of a search engine for blog entries detailing syntax and technique.
For multimodal input processing, it could take into account a particular photo of a pelican as the test subject.
For usability, the objects can be converted to iOS’s native 3d format that can be viewed in mobile safari.
I built this workflow, including a service for blender as an initial test of what was possible in October of 2022. It took post processing for common syntax errors back then but id imagine the newer LLMs would make those mistakes less often now.
But bicycles are famously hard for artists as well. Cyclists can identify all of the parts, but if you don't ride a lot it can be surprisingly difficult to get all of the major bits of geometry right.
Here is better example of start https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfTfAA...
The top results (click on the top Solutions) were pretty impressive: https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/drawing-with-llms/leader...
neepi•6h ago
dist-epoch•5h ago
neepi•5h ago
I would not hire a blind artist or a deaf musician.
dist-epoch•5h ago
Like asking you to draw a 2D projection of 4D sphere intersected with a 4D torus or something.
kevindamm•4h ago
namibj•5h ago
Most the non-math design work of applied engineering AFAIK falls under the umbrella that's tested with the pelican riding the bicycle. You have to make a mental model and then turn it into applicable instructions.
Program code/SVG markup/parametric CAD instructions don't really differ in that aspect.
neepi•4h ago
Ergo no you can't just say throw a bicycle into an LLM and a parametric model drops out into solidworks, then a machine makes it. And everyone buys it. That is the hope really isn't it? You end up with a useless shitty bike with a shit pelican on it.
The biggest problem we have in the LLM space is the fact that no one really knows any of the proposed use cases enough and neither does anyone being told that it works for the use cases.
dist-epoch•4h ago
neepi•3h ago
rjsw•4h ago
neepi•3h ago
__alexs•5h ago
dmd•5h ago
You too, Monet. Scram.
simonw•4h ago
It's a fun way to deflate the hype. Sure, your new LLM may have cost XX million to train and beat all the others on the benchmarks, but when you ask it to draw a pelican on a bicycle it still outputs total junk.
dist-epoch•3h ago
https://chatgpt.com/share/684582a0-03cc-8006-b5b5-de51e5cd89...
lol: https://gemini.google.com/share/4d1746a234a8
wongogue•3h ago
matkoniecz•5h ago
neepi•5h ago
ben_w•4h ago
My CV had a stupid cliché, "committed to quality", which they correctly picked up on — "What do you mean?" one of them asked me, directly.
I thought this meant I was focussed on being the best. He didn't like this answer.
His example, blurred by 20 years of my imperfect human memory, was to ask me which is better: a Porsche, or a go-kart. Now, obviously (or I wouldn't be saying this), Porsche was a trick answer. Less obviously is that both were trick answers, because their point was that the question was under-specified — quality is the match between the product and what the user actually wants, so if the user is a 10 year old who physically isn't big enough to sit in a real car's driver's seat and just wants to rush down a hill or along a track, none of "quality" stuff that makes a Porsche a Porsche is of any relevance at all, but what does matter is the stuff that makes a go-kart into a go-kart… one of which is the affordability.
LLMs are go-karts of the mind. Sometimes that's all you need.
neepi•3h ago
Go kart or porsche is irrelevant.
ben_w•3h ago
That's the point.
The market for go-karts does not support Porche.
If you bring a Porche sales team to a go-kart race, nobody will be interested.
Porche doesn't care about this market. It goes both ways: this market doesn't care about Porche, either.
keiferski•5h ago
Promoting a pelican riding a bicycle makes a decent image there.
keiferski•2h ago
GaggiX•3h ago
jug•2h ago
Result: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8b03yu5v58w0o5he1zayh/pelican...
These are tough benchmarks to trial reasoning by having it _write_ an SVG file by hand and understanding how it's to be written to achieve this. Even a professional would struggle with that! It's _not_ a benchmark to give an AI the best tools to actually do this.
spaceman_2020•2h ago