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Starcloud can’t put a data centre in space at $8.2M in one Starship

https://angadh.com/space-data-centers-1
56•angadh•6h ago

Comments

quantified•5h ago
And all of humanity will be watching these arrays orbit, for the financial benefit of whom? I'm happy to remember the wild night sky.
xnx•5h ago
Starcloud isn't even worth the attention to point out what an infeasible idea it is.
wmf•1h ago
That's how you get another Theranos.
Brian_K_White•18m ago
Maybe SpinLaunch can get it up there. And the power for the SpinLaunch motor can come from Solar Roadways.
energywut•5h ago
Putting a datacenter in space is one of the worst ideas I've heard in a while.

Reliable energy? Possible, but difficult -- need plenty of batteries

Cooling? Very difficult. Where does the heat transfer to?

Latency? Highly variable.

Equipment upgrades and maintenance? Impossible.

Radiation shielding? Not free.

Decommissioning? Potentially dangerous!

Orbital maintenance? Gotta install engines on your datacenter and keep them fueled.

There's no upside, it's only downsides as far as I can tell.

GolfPopper•5h ago
Servers outside any legal jurisdiction. Priceless.
bobthepanda•4h ago
Given that most of the major powers have satellite shootdown ability this isn't worth all that much if you're causing enough trouble.
FredPret•4h ago
Shooting down a satellite is a major step that creates a mess of space junk, angering everybody.

Plus you can just have a couple of politicians from each major power park their money on that satellite.

bryanrasmussen•4h ago
>Shooting down a satellite is a major step that creates a mess of space junk, angering everybody.

unless everybody is angry at satellite in which case it is a price everybody is even eager to pay.

>Plus you can just have a couple of politicians from each major power park their money on that satellite.

I've long had the idea that there are fashions in corruption and a point at which to be corrupt just becomes too gauche and most politicians go back to being honest.

This explains the highly variant history of extreme corruption in democracies.

At any rate while the idea that the cure for any government interference is to be sufficiently corrupt sounds foolproof in theory I'm not sure it actually works out.

If I was a major politician and you had my competitors park their money on your satellite it would become interesting for me to get rid of it. Indeed if you had me and my competitors on the satellite I might start thinking how do I conceal getting my money out of here and then wait for best moment to ram measure through to blow up satellite.

FredPret•4h ago
By that logic, politicians around the world would make it illegal for themselves to trade stock on their insider knowledge. I'm not holding my breath.

See: https://unusualwhales.com/politics. Some of these politicians on both sides are very good and consistent stock pickers indeed.

notahacker•4h ago
The 'Principality of Sealand', anywhere else on the high seas or Antarctica have their issues with practicality too, but considerably less likelihood of background radiation flipping bits...
psds2•4h ago
Who would be willing to provide connectivity to servers that are exploiting being outside legal jurisdiction for some kind of value?
edm0nd•4h ago
Dozens upon dozens of illicit shady bulletproof hosting providers.

2026, we will get ransomware from space!

The RaaS groups have hundreds of millions of dollars so in theory they actually could get something like that setup if they wanted.

ronsor•4h ago
> 2026, we will get ransomware from space!

Ahem, cloud ransomware.

ronsor•4h ago
Anyone with a ground station aimed at the datacenter satellite.
mandevil•4h ago
International space law (starting with the Outer Space Treaty of 1967) says that nations are responsible for all spacecraft they launch, no matter whether the government or a non-governmental group launches them. So a server farm launched by a Danish company is governed by Danish law just the same as if they were on the ground- and exposed to the same ability to put someone into jail if they don't comply with a legal warrant etc.

This is true even if your company moves the actual launching to, say, a platform in international waters- you (either a corporation or an individual) are still regulated by your home country, and that country is responsible for your actions and has full enforcement rights over you. There is no area beyond legal control, space is not a magic "free from the government" area.

reaperducer•4h ago
nations are responsible for all spacecraft they launch, no matter whether the government or a non-governmental group launches them.

Nations come and go. In my lifetime, the world map has changed dozens of times. Incorporate in a country that doesn't look like it's going to be around very long. More than likely, the people running it will be happy to take your money.

christina97•4h ago
Generally though, countries don’t disappear: they have a predecessor and a successor.
reaperducer•3h ago
A successor may take possession of the land, but that doesn't mean it will also take responsibility for the previous government's liabilities.
afiori•2h ago
That is why international treaties come with implicit or explicit enforcement options
mandevil•1h ago
That is not how international law works, you don't get to say "we are a new country and therefore not bound by treaties that earlier forms did."

This principle was established when Nazis were convicted for war crimes at Nuremburg for violating treaties that their predecessor state the Weimar Republic signed, even after the Nazi's repudiated those treaties and claimed they were signed by an illegitimate state, and that they were a new Reich, not like the Wiemar Republic.

Basically if territory changes hand to an existing state that state will obviously still have obligations, and if a new state is formed, then generally it is assumed to still carry the obligations of the previous state. There is no "one weird trick" to avoid international law. I assure you that the diplomats and lawyers 80 years ago thought of these possibilities. They saw what resulted from the Soviet and Nazi mutual POW slaughters, and set up international law so no one could ignore it.

alephnerd•4h ago
Those kinds of countries don't tend to be the kinds of countries with active space programs.

And more critically - they have successor states.

The Russian Federation is treated as the successor to the USSR in most cases (much to the chagrin of the rest of the CIS) and Serbia is treated as the successor to Yugoslavia (much to the chagrin of the rest)

bigiain•2h ago
While that's all true, it does hilariously increase the difficulty for the government showing up and seizing your server hardware...
_carbyau_•2h ago
Maybe not so much... they'll just grab you. Obligatory XKCD.

https://xkcd.com/538/

Unless you go up there with it and a literal lifetime supply? Although I guess if you don't take much it's still a lifetime supply...

xyzzy123•1h ago
They don't need to do that if they go after your ground station operators.

To escape the law you need to hide or protect something on earth (your ground station(s), downlinks). If you can hide or protect that infrastructure on earth, why bother putting the computers in space?

mulmen•1h ago
Because you need an enormous amount of energy to run the servers. You may hide the downlinks but you still need power.
xyzzy123•6m ago
I'm not sure how you maintain hidden ground stations while providing a commercial service that justifies many $MM in capital and requires state support to get launch permission.
paxys•4h ago
Unless the company blasts its HQ and all its employees into space, no, they are very much subject to the jurisdiction of the countries they operate in. The physical location of the data center is irrelevant.
peterbonney•3h ago
Exactly. Government entities have a funny habit of making their own decisions about what (and who) is and is not subject to their jurisdiction.
_carbyau_•2h ago
:-) I appreciate your snark and the ad campaign reference.

But if international waters isn't enough (and much cheaper) then I don't think space will either. Man's imagination for legal control knows no bounds.

You wait (maybe not, it's a long wait...), if humankind ever does get out to the stars, the legal claims of the major nations on the universe will have preceded them.

runako•1h ago
[Mild spoilers for _Critical Mass_ by Daniel Suarez below]

> Servers outside any legal jurisdiction

Others have weighed in on the accuracy of this, with a couple pointing out that the people are still on the ground. There's a thread in _Critical Mass_ by Daniel Suarez that winds up dealing with this issue in a complex set of overlapping ways.

Pretty good stuff, I don't think the book will be as good as the prior book in the series. (I'm only about halfway through.)

nkrisc•1h ago
Pretty worthless unless the execs live in space too.
notahacker•4h ago
The best argument I've heard for data centres in space startups is it's a excuse to do engineering work on components other space companies might want to buy (radiators, shielding, rad-hardened chips, data transfer, space batteries) which are too unsexy to attract the same level of FOMO investment...
chatmasta•2h ago
Yes, and also just because a space data center isn’t useful today doesn’t mean it won’t be required tomorrow. When all the computing is between the ground and some nearby satellites, of course the tradeoffs won’t be worth it.

But what about when we’re making multi-year journeys to Mars and we need a relay network of “space data centers” talking to each other, caching content, etc?

We may as well get ahead of the problems we’ll face and solve them in a low-stakes environment now, rather than waiting to discover some novel failure scenario when we’re nearing Mars…

kolbe•4h ago
Re: reliable energy. Even in low earth orbit, isn't sunlight plentiful? My layman's guess says it's in direct sun 80-95% of the time, with deterministic shade.
energywut•4h ago
Depends on your orbit, but you need to be prepared to rotate into Earth's shadow seamlessly.
notahacker•4h ago
It's super reliable, provided you've got the stored energy for the reliable periods of downtime (or a sun synchronous orbit). Energy storage is a solved problem, but you need rather a lot of it for a datacentre and that's all mass which is very expensive to launch and to replace at the end of its usable lifetime. Same goes for most of the other problems brought up
energywut•3h ago
Exactly this. It's not that it's a difficult problem, but it is a high mass-budget problem. Which makes it an expensive problem. Which makes it a difficult problem.
malfist•3h ago
You answered it yourself, a sun synchronous orbit negates the need for large battery systems.
mook•2h ago
That would make communicating with bits on Earth kind of painful though; I suppose that would work for a server that serves other sun-synchronous objects, but that seems like a rather small market.
malfist•2h ago
You can have sun synchronous around an earth orbit. L1 would do nicely
riknos314•53m ago
Maybe.

If starcloud integrated with something like starlink, using the laser inter satellite links to distribute ground comms across a network of satellites, then the datacenter maintaining a direct link to a base station is probably a non-issue for most purposes.

paxys•4h ago
Bandwidth - negligible
wkat4242•4h ago
Yes cooling is difficult. Half the "solar panels" on the ISS aren't solar panels but heat radiation panels. That's the only way you can get rid of it and it's very inefficient so you need a huge surface.
PaulDavisThe1st•1h ago
seems oddly paradoxical. ISS interior at some roughly livable temperature. Exterior is ... freakin' space! Temperature gradient seems as if it should take of it ...

... and then you realize that because it is space, there's almost nothing out there to absorb the heat ...

throwawaymaths•1h ago
there literally is nothing to absorb the heat. Conduction and convection are out, all you got is radiation.

new vc rule: no investing in space startups unless their founders have 1000 hours in KSP and 500 hours in children of a dead earth

dismalpedigree•2m ago
I’d settle for at least a high school physics education. This idea seemed insane when I first heard about it a few weeks back. This analysis just makes it that much more crazy.

If YC is hell bent on lighting piles of money on fire, I can think of some more enjoyable ways.

ThrowawayTestr•48m ago
A great interactive example of this is the game Oxygen Not Included. By the late game, you're biggest problem is your base getting too hot from the waste heat of all your industry.
ggreer•1h ago
If you read the Starcloud whitepaper[1], it claims that massive batteries aren't needed because the satellites would be placed in a dawn-dusk sun-synchronous orbit. Except for occasional lunar eclipses, the solar panels would be in constant sunlight.

The whitepaper also says that they're targeting use cases that don't require low latency or high availability. In short: AI model training and other big offline tasks.

For maintenance, they plan to have a modular architecture that allows upgrading and/or replacing failed/obsolete servers. If launch costs are low enough to allow for launching a datacenter into space, they'll be low enough to allow for launching replacement modules.

All satellites launched from the US are required to have a decommissioning plan and a debris assessment report. In other words: the government must be satisfied that they won't create orbital debris or create a hazard on the ground. Since these satellites would be very large, they'll almost certainly need thrusters that allow them to avoid potential collisions and deorbit in a controlled manner.

Whether or not their business is viable depends on the future cost of launches and the future cost of batteries. If batteries get really cheap, it will be economically feasible to have an off-the-grid datacenter on the ground. There's not much point in launching a datacenter into space if you can power it on the ground 24/7 with solar + batteries. If cost to orbit per kg plummets and the price of batteries remains high, they'll have a chance. If not, they're sunk.

I think they'll most likely fail, but their business could be very lucrative if they succeed. I wouldn't invest, but I can see why some people would.

1. https://starcloudinc.github.io/wp.pdf

quantified•1h ago
Of course, they're soft targets in space war too, they could generate lots of debris.
hellisothers•1h ago
Man I read “AI training in a high latency self sufficient satellite orbiting earth” as the start of a Sci-Fi novel…
raverbashing•1h ago
Just another good proof of paper being an ideal medium for fiction

Any purported advantages have to contend with the fact that sending the modules costs millions of dollars. Tens to hundred millions

darth_avocado•44m ago
Let me alert all the NIMBY folks, let them know that data centers will be blocking their view of the moon and casting shadows on their backyards.
Brian_K_White•12m ago
You can also drink from a shoe. It's absolutely possible.
Aperocky•10m ago
Same with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, inventing a detour because it sounds cool and ultimately don't work out because Occam's Razor.
throwawaymaths•1h ago
reliable energy is the only (maybe valid) reason. you can get yourself into a sun synchronous dawn dusk orbit and avoid shading by the earth.
notepad0x90•19m ago
You're making lots of assumptions. They can put like 1000 Raspberrypi's which don't need all that much cooling and relatively little energy requirements.

For your other concerns, the risks are worth it for customers because of the main reward: No laws or governments in space! Technically, the datacenter company could be found liable but not for traffic, only for take-down refusals. Physical security is the most important security. For a lot of potential clients, simply making sure human access to the device is difficult is worth data-loss,latency and reliability issues.

fsh•5h ago
I wonder if Starcloud is some kind of social experiment to figure out which is the dumbest possible idea that still somehow gets investors.
SirFatty•5h ago
"...dumbest possible idea.."

It's a crowded field, you have to do something to stand out!

wlesieutre•3h ago
Solar roadways!
MarkusQ•3h ago
Recently had a conversation of space based solar power pros and cons screech to a halt when someone said "Well what about space based geothermal?"
Metacelsus•3h ago
maybe on Io :)
ericyd•3h ago
This site is unusable on my mobile android phone, even tried multiple browsers. The body text extends beyond the window and I can't scroll or zoom to fit.
v5v3•3h ago
Same for me.

But does work if I rotate phone to landscape mode.

kemotep•3h ago
Here is a video that I think thoroughly covers the challenges a datacenter in orbit would face.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAcR7kqOb3o

trhway•3h ago
My napkin is with Starcloud https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43190778 , ie. one Starship $10M launch - 10 000 GPU datacenter into LEO with energy and cooling. I missed there batteries for the half the time being in the Earth shadow (as originally i calculated that for crypto where you can have half the time off which isn't the case for the regular datacenter) and panels to charge them, that adds 10kg for 1 KWH, and thus it will get down to about 5000 GPU for the same weight and launch cost.

Paradoxically the datacenter in LEO is cheaper than on the ground, and have bunch of other benefits like for example physical security.

ggreer•1h ago
If you read Starcloud's whitepaper[1], they mention using a dawn-dusk sun-synchronous orbit. This would keep the solar panels in sunlight except for occasional lunar eclipses (which would basically be scheduled downtime, since their plan is to use these data centers for AI training).

1. https://starcloudinc.github.io/wp.pdf

1970-01-01•1h ago
If I'm reading this correctly, the idea is

1. YOLO. Yeet big data into orbit!

2. People will pay big bucks to keep their data all the way up there!

3. Profit!

It could make sense if the entire DC was designed as a completely modular system. Think ISS without the humans. Every module needs to have a guaranteed lifetime, and then needs to be safely yet destructively deorbited after its replacement (shiny new module) docks and mirrors the data.

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