Matt Trout (mst) was a very big deal in the Perl 5 community, although he was a deeply polarizing figure. He was a big contributor to many Modern Perl projects. I am personally very sad he's dead. I enjoyed the time I spent with him in person, and always found him personally supportive, encouraging, and helpful, although it would be remiss to not mention that a good section of other people found him a very difficult character on many levels.
He wasn't a particularly heavy HN user, but here he is: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=mst
I did not know him at all, have no opinion on him, and sincerely wish the best for those he left behind.
Rarely, in fact.
I'm sure Matt would have been happy to admit that he was that person. I'm sure he would have said that he had spoken his mind unvarnished, and maybe even that he thought he was right.
So what?
People say that a community will fall to the level of the most toxic person it will tolerate. For the Perl community, that was Matt.
Don’t always believe the stereotypes.
Matt would have liked this discussion. And given that his and my mutual friend has some actual legitimate serious expertise on obscenity in the English language even more so.
As an Australian, how many times have you been called the word? In how many types of context?
It can be extremely offensive, used a certain way, yes. And it can be absolutely breezy, used another way. And context usually makes it absolutely clear, as in, there's almost never any ambiguity. Right?
I know you wouldn't use it straight away in the British isles without first establishing context and familiarity, sure. But the comment I responded to said they'd only been called that once. This is culturally a world apart from countries in which the word can and regularly is used in a friendly, playful, lighthearted way.
In Australia it's even more common, and less familiarity is required before employing it. Still, of course, one has to be careful in some contexts. This isn't relevant to the point I'm making.
My point was simply that the word is much more common in places like the UK and Australia, to the point where being called that once ever is very far away from my experience, enough to be quite noteworthy. A point which your comment literally confirms.
And, as everyone is rushing to point out, yes, it can be used offensively, if used a certain way. What is this apparent difficulty accepting that words have multiple uses, even sometimes the opposite thing. English is a very contextual language, tone and intonation and familiarity and etc matter hugely.
For example, your last point - calling a woman a cunt can of course be sexist, but what if you and the woman for whatever reason both decide that you like calling each other a cunt? If you think that doesn't happen in the world, in respectful and mutually caring relationships and friendships, you are mistaken. Some people simply enjoy breaking taboos, it can be healthy and playful.
Point is even with context you’re still wrong.
But anyway, that hardly matters - yes, I am indeed dead wrong in the made up argument you're having about the thing no-one said.
No reason why someone might think your comment was connected to OP’s comment. Nope none at all. Nicely done.
I'd like to take responsibility for your incorrect reading of my comments, but it would unfortunately make no sense.
I implore you to take a break from the insinuations and instead quote directly any part of any of my comments that shows me saying what you believed me to be saying. You won't be able to, because it simply didn't happen.
The word cunt has radically different patterns of use in the USA vs in UK/AUS/IE/NZ. More cultural knowledge is useful and good. It's perfectly plausible that OP was unaware of that fact, and I therefore thought it could be useful knowledge, for OP and anyone else, regardless of the original anecdote, but possibly related to the original anecdote. That's for OP to decide, I don't know the details.
Is that clearer now for you?
I never said you didn't. I said that you were misreading me. We could speculate as to what could have caused such a poor reading of such a simple point, but there are so many juicy possibilities, it's hard to pick.
> you immediately start to lash out
This is upside down - you immediately got snotty when I explained that the point you first made was in no way relevant to what I was saying.
I, on the other hand, accorded you far more patience than your low-effort misreading warranted. I attempted repeatedly to explain where you were confused, only indulging fully in riling you up (with great success, apparently) at the very end there.
And to be frank I didn't feel like I was "lashing out", as I didn't feel sincerely emotionally involved to begin with. Your original argument was laughable, and the way you immediately switched to sniping then came as no surprise.
What has happened is you jumped in with some irrelevant anecdotes, and then refused to back down when it was pointed out, and instead chose to invent a fantasy scenario where I'm making a point that I at no stage make. I've asked you to quote the moment where I say anything more than what I've now repeatedly explained to you - and you won't do it.
So no, as much as it would please you to imagine it to be true, this:
> it was pointed out how stupid what you wrote was
Has not occurred, except in the fantasy argument in your head. I don't mean that something has been pointed out and I disagree, I mean that precisely nothing has been pointed out, you've made no response, instead maintaining I'm making a point I never did.
Outside of your fantasy, then, on the off-chance that you want to step back into reality, I've made the following point, which I invite you to actually respond to instead of getting so terribly worked up: The word "cunt" is used very differently in the US than in various other parts of the Anglosphere, including but not limited to Ireland, England, Scotland, and Australia.
None of that means Matt Trout was using the word in a friendly fashion, and none of that means that the OP in this case wasn't being poorly treated by Mr. Trout.
It doesn't mean that there can't be nuance and variation in those regions of the Anglosphere I mentioned, either. For example, if you personally don't use it much, that would be - for the purposes of this point - of no relevance. Your previous monarch Queen Elizabeth probably didn't use it much either, and that, also, is of no relevance.
> No wonder you’re on a throwaway account tbh.
The real wonder is how someone on a non-throwaway account can utter such inanities and remain so unabashedly foolhardy about it.
> act like a gigantic cunt
You must have really had a hard time in the O-levels to have taken my comment so badly, lashing out with profanities and everything. My oh my. Where's that British decency and propriety the world knows so well?
And what would Matt Trout say, I wonder!
I spent over a decade in #perl on freenode/libera and saw so many abusive events that I eventually got tired of hanging out there, mostly due to him but in part also due to a handful of others displaying similar behavior. All the same I was always grateful for how tirelessly he spent so much of his personal time providing help, and I'm sad to learn of his passing.
I didn't much enjoy it when I was at the other end of it though, and sometimes he went too far. "Try to understand why the person doesn't understand" wasn't something he did enough -- sometimes the person doesn't know the right questions to ask, they just know that their thing doesn't work.
As a helper, it's hard to find the right balance, and I think the most important thing is that if you're getting emotional about it, step away and let someone else take the question. (I at least have been getting better at this over time.)
That makes sense if they're just visiting the channel sometimes. But I'm guessing they saw themselves as somewhat responsible for the community and quality of discussion in the channel, and then just walking away isn't really a solution.
Super smart kid, very nice to work with. I ended up supporting one of the systems he built (in Perl). I used his Cataylst Perl framework for some projects after that because of him.
Thanks, Matt, the ripples will go on for a good while.
As I said on irc:
He brought many people into the community, and encouraged their growth (like me)
I popped into the scene by sending a few Moose patches and then coming onto irc displaying an utter lack of understanding of anything
Matt set me straight, and encouraged me to send more patches and I ended up as the manager for Moose
and then inherited the ownership of literally hundreds (perhaps thousands by now) distributions
that work helped me move from being mediocre at my job to being stellar, and enabled me to move on to much better jobs
Which mst was a huge reason why irc.perl.org is still around.
(oh, i see, it already got vouched twixt the main page and my comment)
I loved Matt dearly, and I think he'd approve of Curtis' post.
* Catalyst (web framework)
* DBIx::Class (ORM)
* Moo (object-oriented code)
I've read about his tough interactions with other people, and it does seem that, at times, he fell into the classic trap of loving his own ideas too much; but in our interactions (reviewing some of my code on a Perl project), he was really helpful and kind. Also amazingly quick. He read my beginner-level Perl code, instantly understood it, and instantly gave clear, concise feedback.
It's a shame he has passed.
https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=mst
Huge in the Perl world, he will be missed.
He used to wind up taking home every single girl I introduced him to. He and I met when he pulled my FWB at a club and our friendship long outlasted either of ours with the FWB.
He gave me career advice that I followed that set me on a path to the great happiness I now have.
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Matt used to be a regular in $pub. He was always there, frequently at his space on the left edge of the bar, frequently drinking snakebite and black, and as a regular to the same pub I got to know him. He was a man who could fill the room. He was a comforting presence of someone I could talk to any time I was there. He was reliable and engaging conversation.
Anyway, this isn't the story about the first girl I introduced him to who he took home, but actually the severelth.
I took a friend (who I very much wasn't with, nor wanted to get with) to $pub one night and after she and I sat and had a pint or two, we got chatting to Matt. He had an unmistakable charm and wow, did he turn it on.
We got chatting in the beer garden of $pub and we were just chatting, but in that deep and long way that he liked to. I really enjoyed that night, but I saw that Matt and $friend were definitely sharing eyes.
We spoke until kick-out at 1, when Matt invited us both back to his place. Now I knew full well that the invitation was for $friend and he was just being polite, but along I went, following behind as they got closer and closer.
This wasn't the first time I'd been to his and he lived in a flat above a shop on the corner of a stone building with a dome, right near the castle.
Inside the flat was mostly open-plan and you could see up into this slate dome. It served no functional purpose but it was quite the aesthetic.
Whenever Matt invited people back, he'd always invite them to play the board game 'Sorry'. He had an ancient copy and a back-story about how it meant a lot to him that, to my discredit, I don't remember. But we played 'Sorry'.
And as the night wound on, $friend fell further and further into his lap and the point became less and less about the game. He was trying to wrap up.
But I thought "no, you sod. I'm not going until this game is done!" He'd pulled out from under me before and this time, I thought I'd play a joke on him instead.
So I dragged this game on and on. I don't remember the mechanics but I absolutely refused to lose but without winning. I kept it going for over an hour at which point Matt and $friend were staring pointedly at me as I barely concealed a grin for getting to be his cockblock for once.
Finally, the last turn came and I decidedly lost. I was immediately and with urgency ushered out of the flat as the dawn chorus sang with my last memory of them cuddling at the door, scowling at me before he pointedly shut the door.
But do what you must, for I have already won. I walked home and felt like I won that one.
$friend and Matt didn't stay a thing for long, but I'll always remember that time fondly. As will I carry with me the love of Woodford Reserve that he taught me.
Now 10 years into my relationship, when I introduced her to Matt, I had to take him to one side and politely ask him "Don't take this one home." And he didn't try.
RIP to a headbanger of math.
His oratory and presentation style is inimitable and he truly brought everyone up who worked with him, and even did his best to smooth over difficult personality conflicts on the p5p mailing list. He was instrumental in establishing a Standard of Conduct for contributing to Perl, as well. He was a staunch ally for the many he befriended and worked to bash through obstacles whether it had anything to do with his immediate obligations or no.
Fucking hell man. This hurts. Love you Matt.
rwmj•7mo ago
sebmellen•7mo ago
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detaro•7mo ago
ether_at_cpan•7mo ago
> Perl is a wonderful language once you get over the fact that a slightly quirky set of syntax and embedded regular expressions have a tendency to make it look like line noise in the wrong light. Once you're used to it, it's a hell of an expressive dynamically typed language with a huge set of libraries and classes available for it.
singingfish•7mo ago
Another former colleague who is way more talented than I am emailed me privately to express a similar sentiment.
You'll find Matt's indirect influence in things like SQLAlchemy, and chunks of the enduring parts of the javascript ecosystem as well. He was known in the perl community, but his unparalleled thinking skills have a much wider indirect influence