Also, to be fair I don't think I would know about this "We Do Not Break Userspace" rule if this hadn't been so famous at the time.
Credit: https://web.archive.org/web/20200909035546/https://diff.subs...
I am glad the pendulum is ( slowly ) swinging back.
For example, maybe you work as a program coordinator in a liberal arts college, then you may target the thalamus- the center of logical reasoning. You explain to professors how the program you’re responsible for will advance some goal that seems logical though no one feels emotional about it.
Or maybe you’re a drill sergeant whose job it is to ensure that when soldiers are under duress in war, your barked commands and insults will be burned into their amygdala, their emotion center that handles fight or flight immediate responses and related fast and deep emotional memories, so that they will respond as trained instead of forgetting everything that was learned and running away, because that may not be as effective. Logic doesn’t play into decisions under duress.
Linus may have later decided that hurting others was not as helpful, but he wasn’t being a bad leader when he did and said what he felt he needed to at the time.
Sometimes it takes a little tough love to make things happen. Even Jesus had to overturn some tables.
Seeing someone value a serious project higher than random guy's personal feelings is extremely refreshing.
> But you don't need to be mean
You don't need to be nice either
...right, mostly. Being nice is nice, but the truth is more important. A corporation that could figure that out would run far better.
But I think the "don't break user space" rule would be more effective if it was very clearly stated and you could point to a doc that made it obvious to the committer that it was against policy.
Linus seems to have a strong internal sense of what the policy means, and he heaps on Monty Python style verbal abuse to get his point across. But while that's good at indicating how angry it is, it's not clear to me that it's the most effective way of reducing violations of the rule.
In a past employer I've left a PR comment with a much less aggressive tone, and the PR author messaged me saying "your message is unprofessional". Granted, it wasn't my best moment, I had snapped. But if I wrote something like what Linus wrote, i'd be insta-fired.
Offence is taken, not given.
This label is such a blatant Americanism. AFAICT it simply communicates a social threat for violating implicit cultural norms, shutting down communication, and carries virtually no useful content beyond that.
Communication takes two. If we want peers to take responsibility for their words and actions, then shouldn't we also take responsibility for our role in interpreting and reacting the same?
Some of the best work environments I've been part of allowed space for people to accept the fact that we're all human with human emotions. If someone blows up, maybe they're overstressed or maybe they're yelling at a kid about to get run over by a car.
I’m sure my reaction to this was different when I first read it many years ago. But now, I can strongly relate to the feeling behind these words.
> In other words, only an application that handles video should be using those controls, and as far as I know, pulseaudio is not a such application. Or are it trying to do world domination?
Mauro's first response does seem a bit defensive, and reads like an attempt to justify his actions. It even feels a bit like an accusation against PulseAudio. I didn't know the exact context at the time, but now that I read the entire email, I think I'm getting why Linus was triggered.
santoshalper•9h ago
add-mobius•9h ago
sschnei8•9h ago
_101•9h ago
It takes an incredibly strong hand to lead a team whose product is the operating system of most of the Internet.
Do you think Jobs, Bezos, or Gates would say, “Hey guy. I respect you, man, and you write great code. I think we should work together to solve this. Are you cool with that? Maybe we can grab a latte.”
No, they didn’t do that shit.
Pretending you’re their HR manager and get to tell them what’s acceptable doesn’t make you equal or better than them. People have faults, but you can’t get on your high horse picking on them when you’re using their shit everyday.
komali2•7h ago
If you want a good bibliography, check out the sources of any Dale Carnegie book. He went through letters, journals, biographies, and writings of leaders as far back as the ancient Greeks. His conclusion is the opposite of the one you're making here. The best leaders lift people up, not shout people down.
Others here discuss absurdities like drill instructors. None of us work on a battlefield, none of us are in life or death situations here.
We're talking about leading people in labor. It's basically a solved problem, but for some reason people keep needing to debate the effectiveness of "tough love" approaches. It baffles me.
dzhiurgis•4h ago
Startups are absolutely like battlefields. Maybe even worse since you can't die.
inemesitaffia•3h ago
dolebirchwood•9h ago
komali2•9h ago
Personally I think Dale Carnegie cracked that nut nearly a century ago and had the research of many great figures in history to back it up. If you haven't read "How to Win Friends," spoilers: he never suggests screaming someone out of a room.
itsthecourier•9h ago
dolebirchwood•9h ago
komali2•8h ago
I'll answer for you: yes, he is, and also yes he believes this screaming version of him was wrong to be so cruel and abrasive: https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167
If Linus is trying to grow out of the emotional outburst version of himself I don't understand why people continue to try to defend it. The man himself now believes it's the wrong way to be.
dolebirchwood•6h ago
komali2•9h ago
Yet that goes away as soon as it becomes time to defend Linus Torvalds. Then it's "actually his emotional outbursts are rational and necessary."
I hate to say it but I've always wondered how different the attitude towards Linus would be if everything about him and his history was the same, except, he was a woman.
If your gut reaction is to defend him because he's so clearly a once in a generation engineer and very smart, remember, the even more experienced and wise version of him has disavowed this earlier, emotional outburst version of him: https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 Why defend behavior that he himself has agreed is indefensible?
_101•9h ago
grosswait•9h ago
komali2•8h ago
Linus' whole come to Jesus and apology was kicked off by that and the code of conduct saga, which was predicated on the fact that 98% of kernel developers were men. I think we can agree it'd be naive, despite us three not being misogynists, to believe that the community wouldn't construe girl Linus' outbursts as hysterical?
rmunn•7h ago
komali2•6h ago
Yes, because that was what was selected for, a toxic masculine form of communication. My point was I believe these emotional outbursts wouldn't have been treated as tough love if Linus had been a woman, they would have been perceived as hysteria, because the community had selected for a 98% male environment of men losing control of their anger at each other.
Now Linus has changed, and so has the community's communication style, and so too has the demographics of the contributors. People of all stripes that were turned out by the old brutish, uncontrolled way of communicating are coming back, and the project is much better for it.
Maybe it's unrelated but this new era of Linux, where the project has a code of conduct, is also the era of record high market share of Linux based desktop operating systems.
inemesitaffia•3h ago
They are also significantly mostly Chromebooks, Steam Decks and TV's.
Also there's nothing wrong with masculinity of any form.
podunkPDX•8h ago
glenstein•8h ago
Great point and a great link. For someone not as fully immersed in the context of this history of Linus outbursts, I found this comment to be the most clarifying and important in the thread.
He's essentially being celebrated for behavior that, as you noted, he himself has agreed is indefensible. Just quoting from your link:
>This week people in our community confronted me about my lifetime of not understanding emotions. My flippant attacks in emails have been both unprofessional and uncalled for. Especially at times when I made it personal. In my quest for a better patch, this made sense to me.
>I know now this was not OK and I am truly sorry.
>The above is basically a long-winded way to get to the somewhat painful personal admission that hey, I need to change some of my behavior, and I want to apologize to the people that my personal behavior hurt and possibly drove away from kernel development entirely.
>I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately.
Impressively introspective, at least compared to the comments that are the topic of this thread. Fascinating how many people think they're taking Linus' side are taking a side that he wants nothing to do with.