So yes, I agree, it is akin to saying that.
That is completely false. First of all, NASA didn't nix it, they just didn't make it a priority as it had little value from their perspective.
The reason it was not done is that para-shouts have to be in the design anyway for abort situations, so that was fixed.
So for SpaceX, the question was to likely delay the program, and take on a whole lot of extra engineering work that they were not actually getting paid for, remember fixed price contract.
They were only going to work on it if they really thought they needed it for something like Red Dragon. And then they could still add it later.
And one of the primary reason SpaceX thought that its to hard, is that they landing feet would have to have gone threw the heat shield. That would have made the whole heat-shield design massively more complex.
NASA likes parachutes because they've always used parachutes. SpaceX likes retropulsive landings because Mars is their goal, and Mars' atmosphere isn't dense enough for parachutes. It's also safer for the crew in nominal operation and enables a much higher degree of rapid reuse, relative to NASA's traditional operation of taking a salt water bath in the ocean.
So they could go through the [very reasonable] extensive costs and testing involved in proving the safety of the retropulsive landings, or just go old school, strap a few parachutes on and work on getting crew to the ISS (which was the goal at the time). They chose the latter and with the plan of getting back to retropulsive landings later, which they also did. Parachutes remain the main landing mechanism for the Crew Dragon, but it now also has retropulsive landing capabilities to be used in case of a chute failure.
[1] - https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2024/10/dragon-propulsive-la...
For example NASA deemed the Boeing crew vessel safe after its pad abort test resulted in only 2 of 3 parachutes deploying and it suffering a propellant leak - all in beyond optimal conditions. They deemed it not only safe, but safe enough to completely skip the scheduled in-flight abort test. All of this is of course how you ended up with astronauts trapped on the ISS that had to be rescued by SpaceX.
For another contrast there after SpaceX did swap over to a simple parachute system, their pad-abort test went off flawlessly. NASA still required they do an in-flight abort. Granted, that's nothing to complain about, because that's exactly what NASA should do. But they also should have had Boeing completely redo their pad-abort test and damned sure do an in-flight abort as well. Safety culture at NASA is generally completely dysfunctional because of non-safety factors.
This is nothing new either. Both Space Shuttle disasters were 100% preventable, and not only in hindsight. Engineers brought up the exact causes of both explosions well before they happened, but the bureaucratic layer ignored them.
Shuttle is an excellent example of the sort of thing I'm talking about. It had no abort capability in the event that something went kaboom, and no realistic abort capability at all for large critical portions of launch. Their test pilot outright refused to test an abort because he didn't think it would be survivable. It never should have been human-rated, and it only was because NASA pretended it had an abort capability that wasn't really there.
Starship is even worse: not only does it have no realistic abort capability for most of the launch, it also has a very delicate landing procedure that requires a substantial amount of propellant to remain on board, no ability for the occupants to escape in the event that those propellants decide to mix in a place where they're not supposed to, and very limited ability to handle engine failures.
So this leads to judgement calls from NASA that are opaque and, in practice, are not necessarily grounded in safety, as per your own example as well. NASA clearly did not want SpaceX doing propulsive landings and was making sure to dot all their i's and cross their t's with them, while simultaneously going YOLO with Boeing and actively greenlighting their vessel which clearly was not even remotely safe for a human. In this context, it's highly unlikely SpaceX could have convinced NASA to more forward with the propulsive landings, even if they were the safest thing ever invented.
Reason Musk gave: safety.
Maybe I have to spell it out for the slow ones.
it would have added time and complexity --> because proving the safety of additional system takes TIME.
it would have been expensive --> TIME is money
it wasn’t necessary --> The parachutes system was mandatory anyway.
I guess people just want to argue. I have three different people replying to me effectively saying, "you're wrong, it's not because it's difficult to make it safe, it's because it was difficult to make it safe because of reasons X Y and Z."
It wasn't because of safety, but because it would have needed tests, development and certification (for a new type of landing) while already having an established method (splashing into the sea).
I’m pretty sure the Eagle has landed with humans on board.
This is not the only hurdle. You can have an airport right next to a major city, with hundreds of arrivals and departures each day.
The same cannot be said for a Starship spaceport. Due to very loud launch, sonic booms on landing [0], and the danger of dropping a Starship onto populated areas, it would likely need to be offshore. That requires a boat, so now boarding a Starship involves thinking about sea states, taking a ferry ride on each side, and more.
Starship is super cool, but point to point Starship is a bit of a fantasy when you start to get to the nitty gritty.
[0] https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2024/11/starships-sound-stud... (TL;DR: Super Heavy's sonic booms are 110 dB when standing 20 km from the booster.)
https://www.theoverview.org/p/sls-vs-saturn-v-which-was-loud...
https://pubs.aip.org/asa/jel/article/5/2/023602/3337259/Star...
A quick look at ocean depth maps points to friendly continental platforms around the East US, China, a lot of Australia and New Zealand, and most of South America.
It'd be a massive effort, but not completely impossible. To get to Brazil to see my family, I'd probably need to first go to Southwest Ireland before boarding a suborbital flight to Rio, so it'd be 2 hours of rail, then 20 or so minutes of suborbital, then another hour flying to São Paulo (which is not on the coast). Still beats flying through Lisbon, Amsterdam or Paris.
Passengers could eject a few km above ground and parachute to their destination like Yuri Gagarin did on Vostok 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostok_1#Reentry_and_landing
:) /s
And that suborbital spaceflight is effectively off the table for anyone with a heart condition. There's a reason why you see all those warnings on rollercoasters even when the dangerous part lasts <1s. Now let's subject someone to minutes of it.
Wikipedia: The flush cockpit means that the long and pointed nose-cone will obstruct all forward vision. The X-59 will use an enhanced flight vision system (EVS), consisting of a forward 4K camera with a 33° by 19° angle of view, which will compensate for the lack of forward visibility.
https://skybrary.aero/articles/instrument-landing-system-ils
No idea if the procedure here would be use a backup camera, try to land on ILS, or eject/bail out (if equipped). Presumably they've thought of that and it's in the "emergency procedures" section of the flight manual.
I know commercial airliners are required to carry an emergency ukulele, but that's only 4 strings.
There may even be multiple. Cameras are pretty cheap these days.
I thought the reason the SR-71 was cancelled/mothballed was because the missiles got good enough for it to be totally ineffective.
erikerikson•6mo ago
epicureanideal•6mo ago
$1000 vs $2400 to get to Europe in 6 hours instead of 12? A lot of people who just hate those long flights would pay for it, especially given that flights are only a portion of total vacation cost, together with hotels, etc.
Or for a flight inside the US, $1000 rather than $400, but to get from coast to coast in 3 hours rather than 6, may be very worth it for some people.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/107206/how-clos...
erikerikson•6mo ago
pests•6mo ago
adgjlsfhk1•6mo ago
hermitcrab•6mo ago
adgjlsfhk1•6mo ago
bawolff•6mo ago
After all, concorde design started almost 75 years ago, surely we've learned a thing or two on how to design aircrafts with lower maintenance & operating costs in that time.
lazide•6mo ago
The only reason it kept flying for 33 years is a vanity project for national airlines.
Which it was excellent at. Actually viable business? Not so much.
wat10000•6mo ago
lazide•6mo ago
It was able to coast, eventually, but that’s some very fancy accounting.
“French Transport Minister Daniel Hoeffel, saying France ''will not and cannot abandon Concorde,'' signed a new agreement with Air France this week. The French Government, which with Britain had spent more than $2 billion developing the world's first supersonic passenger aircraft, will pay 90 percent of the plane's estimated operating losses for the next three years, compared with 70 percent in the past.
Under the new pact, the French taxpayer will contribute $66 million this year to the cost of Air France's champagne-and-caviar service linking Paris with New York, Washington, Caracas and Rio de Janeiro. In 1982, when losses are expected to decline slightly, the subsidy will be about $64 million, and in 1983, $59 million.”
wat10000•6mo ago
lazide•6mo ago
epicureanideal•6mo ago
If California High Speed Rail loses a little bit of money, I won't be too upset by it. Unfortunately the up front costs are much higher, but at the same time, massive, massive infrastructure development is happening in California all along the length of the state, and the government is acquiring the rights to develop public transportation both now and into the future on that land. Again, there are worse ways to spend the money in my opinion.
lukan•6mo ago
Bad for climate. Bad for the people below enjoying the noise. Bad for all the other things you could do with 2 billion. (A lot)
Only good for people who want jetting quickly around the World.
And it is good for material research, but that's the same argument for military development.
robertlagrant•6mo ago
sidewndr46•6mo ago
bawolff•6mo ago
> The only reason it kept flying for 33 years is a vanity project for national airlines.
Something that loses money, but not so much money that it can't be justified as a vanity project, seems like the sort of thing that could be profitable with tweaks and improvements.
Like it didn't work, but it was close enough to working that reasonable investors could say: second time will be the charm. Especially given how much more mature aeroplane technology is now vs the 1950s.
To put it in perspective, we first broke the sound barrier in 1947. People started designing the concorde in 1954 only 7 years later. It is now three quarters of a century later. Technology has improved a lot since then.
jauntywundrkind•6mo ago
Boom is talking about "Boomless Cruise" being up to mach 1.3. they are trying to bounce the downward going sound waves off the atmosphere, bouncing them back up. It seems to be significantly speed dependent? https://boomsupersonic.com/press-release/boom-supersonic-ann...
Robotbeat•6mo ago
sroussey•6mo ago
adastra22•6mo ago
swores•6mo ago
adastra22•6mo ago
A sonic boom is what you get when a traditional solid, largely flat-ish airfoil pushes air smoothly through the transition to supersonic flight. Very ELI5, but during the transition the energy/noise being put into the air basically stops dissipating from the aircraft at the point of transition, and so all that noise clumps together into a shockwave.
The shape of the X-59 makes it such that the transition doesn't happen uniformly over the air surfaces of the plane at the same time. It does get a little noisier around the transition, but it not a shockwave at all.
swores•6mo ago
And TIL I learn that it's even possible to break the sound barrier without a boom of some kind (assuming NASA haven't found otherwise and adopted Boom's strategy in the years since you were hearing about it from them). Cheers for the interesting comment!
Edit: although I hope somebody can answer sroussey's original comment of «What happens when there are 1000 flights over land all having sonic booms, and 1000 reflecting sonic booms, and the 1001 plane flies through all the sonic booms?», since if Boom are successful I assume they're more likely to have thousands (or at least enough to have overlapping flights at times) of planes in the air than NASA. Unless, I guess, NASA do such a good job of demonstrating that you can actually get rid of the boom rather than just redirecting where the sound waves go that Boom change their strategy to that and/or get outcompeted by rival companies doing the NASA way. ("Just" is a little unfair, since Boom's technique seems incredibly clever to me.)
adastra22•6mo ago
It's a bit like stealth tech: early "low observable" fighter planes did things like switch to unibody cockpits so there were fewer reflective interfaces and therefore a smaller radar cross section. Then the F-117 and B-2 went with "be fucking invisible to radar" (or approximately so). Totally changes the game.
A "sonic thump" will be noisier than normal operating engine noise. You will hear it and it will be noticeable in the sense that unlike regular airplane takeoff and landing, it will be a distinct transitory sound.
But in terms of absolute noise levels and mechanical properties, the "sonic thump" of a commercial airline would probably be considerably quieter than, for example, the regular takeoff/landing noise of a military jet. It needs to be characterized and understood to see what the effect would be on communities living near supersonic airports, but not a real engineering concern.
Your question is valid with respect to Boom though, and that is part of their challenge to getting regulatory approval for supersonic transition over land.
hnlmorg•6mo ago
It was also far less pleasant a ride than even most economy class tickets for long hall flights. The space was more cramped and it was much louder inside the cabin. Personally, Id rather spend more for nicer seats on a longer flight than worse seats on a shorter flight. And a lot of people with money felt the same.
Design changes might help with the passenger comfort problem but when the plane is already running at a loss, it’s a hard sell asking for more R&D costs (which would be massive) to redevelop the concord.
sho_hn•6mo ago
I used to be really impatient with travel and tried my best to save travel time, and never took the train. Then I forced my self to change my ways.
Nowdays, I find thst plan the train travel days as part of the trip: Sure, it takes me a whole day to get somewhere, but I allocate that time for hacking on the laptop on a side project, reading a book, or playing a game on the Steam Deck, things I normally don't find that much time for. I find e.g. my vacation satisfaction actually has gone up.
Train travel is also easier with (my) kids than air travel despite the longer duration, because you can roam the train more, change location to the restaurant, etc.
nucleardog•6mo ago
Everything about air travel is rushed, stressful, and unpleasant. Yeah, I can get there in 3 hours (if you account for the "show up two hours early in case we understaffed the check-in desk" thing), but by the time I get there I'm _wiped_. Plus I'm probably going to end up either leaving or arriving at some ungodly hour that means my sleep schedule's screwed and that's basically all I'm getting done that day anyway.
The train I take instead runs every 30 minutes. You can rock up 6 minutes before the train leaves and walk right on after someone scans a QR code. You can bring a drink! There's tons of space for people and luggage. The seats are huge. Your legs fit. The tray is big enough to actually work on. You can get up and go for a walk. There's a water fountain and water bottle filler. The washroom is bigger than some bedrooms I've had.
If you're traveling with kids you can actually book seats at a full-fledged table and have lots of room for activities and colouring and such.
And it takes 5 hours. So sure, in theory it's two hours longer. In reality, I've got back almost 5 hours of my day. And I can arrive at a reasonable hour and not tired and stressed to shit and actually do things with the rest of my time.
Last trip I used the way there for some relaxing. Did some reading, played some games, generally just wound down. On the way back I was able to get some work done effectively so actually got paid for my travel day. Either way, it was a much better experience.
para_parolu•6mo ago
hnlmorg•6mo ago
Also, concord is still louder and more cramped than economy on a typical long hall 747.
adastra22•6mo ago
hnlmorg•6mo ago
The ones at air shows felt more specious than the commercial ones. Or at least that’s how it was from my admittedly very limited first hand experience.
adastra22•6mo ago
rkomorn•6mo ago
I was fortunate to fly an Air France Concorde between JFK and CDG and, while the seats were leather (which was not the case in economy at the time), they were no larger than economy seats.
The windows were tiny and the cabin itself was also quite small. It definitely felt cramped.
rkomorn•6mo ago
The price difference between direct and connecting flights, for example, already shows how much more expensive the convenience can be.
sehansen•6mo ago
The Concorde was a loss for the manufacturer, though.
flippyhead•6mo ago
FredPret•6mo ago
dylan604•6mo ago
Don't those people already have access to private jets?
eightysixfour•6mo ago
dylan604•6mo ago
eightysixfour•6mo ago
LA to NYC first class (lie flat) on American = $3k LA to NYC on a super-midsize PJ (seats 8) = ~$50k
Even empty legs cost way more than this:
Miami to NYC on a Citation X = $24k
Not only that, but on a cross-country flight, the commercial first class is more comfortable than a midsize.
wkat4242•6mo ago
dylan604•6mo ago
wkat4242•6mo ago
But yes that's what I meant, with a private plane you pay for the plane not per seat. I guess chartering a netjet would be cheaper than say 8 first-class seats.
dylan604•6mo ago
And yes, private jets tend to fly faster. Yes, commercial jets can fly faster, but they don't as they have determined the most fuel efficient cruising speeds. Private jets are less concerned about that. You can see the same thing with your car. The faster you drive, the worse your MPG.
adastra22•6mo ago
I’ve looked at it a few times and flying private is just tantalizingly out of reach for a private vacation with a large family. Far less cost than you would expect (but still a 1% privilege).
dylan604•6mo ago
sidewndr46•6mo ago
Did I mention private jets aren't subject to the TSA?
swores•6mo ago
adastra22•6mo ago
eightysixfour•6mo ago
adastra22•6mo ago
panick21_•6mo ago
Boom the only company trying to seriously do it, and they are facing a major uphill battle and will need many billions more.
And this NASA project doesn't really solve the problem, because its primary way to avoid the noise, is to reduce what would be cabin space for the already limited space. So that makes commercial viability even worse.
burnt-resistor•6mo ago
https://boomsupersonic.com/flyby/breaking-the-sound-barrier-...
Robotbeat•6mo ago
supportengineer•6mo ago
burnt-resistor•6mo ago
Boom claims to have completed their Overture facilities and plans to unveil a completed aircraft this year.[0]
0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boom_Overture
Robotbeat•6mo ago
adastra22•6mo ago
Robotbeat•6mo ago
potato3732842•6mo ago