There's lots of little privileges like this that only seem to apply to politicians. Like, lifelong retirement after just one year of work in parliament and government provided tax-free apartments in central Copenhagen.
The argument for the latter is that it is needed for them to be near the work, but if a private company provides the same to their employees the employee will be taxed by its full value.
Granted, it's less corruption than other places, but definitely still corruption.
I think it's probably a good thing to explore a wider range of ideas, even if many of the ideas suck and end up being scrapped.
If you look at actual history of Chat Control: it always had majority support, and it was always a blocking minority that stopped it.
We do have a right to secrecy of correspondence in most member nations, it's kind of silly that we don't have a strict equivalent for phones or computers yet, despite the fact that most people hardly send letters anymore.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_8_of_the_European_Conv...
Okay hear me out, for public or semi public chats, having a tool to force content scans to prevent people randomly posting csam into the channel might be an idea worth considering. Ask any Matrix Admin about that issue...
> but nowhere seems to have such a CSAM problem as Matrix
Well Tor, i2p, freenet etc. are mostly csam anyway
My guess is that the source of the problem is that you can easily sign up for a service if it doesn't validate your phone number like every other messenger with a decent following does. If XMPP gained popularity again outside of corporate networks that use it without knowing, we'd also see it there, probably.
Matrix also seems to have gathered a following in the particularly unsavoury parts of a few *chan websites which probably doesn't help.
This is still relatively new and it's not as ubiquitous as say email verification. So I don't see that as being a primary cause of whatever the underlying issue is. Not to mention, I have to imagine it's never been easier to acquire phone numbers to abuse.
> Why are some of these people so obsessed with reading everyone's chats?
Having worked with some of the people in law enforcement heavily pushing this, it generally does come from child safety concerns and the overwhelming amount of CSAM sent via encrypted means.
Personally, I don't believe that it will ever be restricted to serious crimes and the potential for abuse is infinite, so I don't believe it is justifiable, but child sexual abuse is a real and enormous problem that causes untold harm and suffering, so we have to find a balance.
Also something something children something terrorism something something safety, whatever makes the uninformed public feel like this is something that'll benefit them.
I think it was Encrochat devices that booted into a fairly vanilla looking OS, and there was another platform where it was hidden in something like a calculator app.
I mean, maybe that has something to do with it?
The rise of totalitairianism in the EU is very real.
The best way I can describe my social circles in the US and EU is that in the US, we still have "principled freedom", where there (still) is a majority of people that understand the original ideas of the founding fathers, and can imagine that things could theoretically be different (the word used for this is "tyranny", which sounded super weird when I first came here).
In EU, I see a total disconnect with any foundational principles or values. Worse is that the population would 100% disagree with you on this, but when you probe "what are these values and why are they there," you get mostly circular reasoning based on some neo-liberal viewpoints. Furthermore, people just can't imagine ever losing their freedoms. This makes Europe essentially like the frog in the pot on the stove. If you mention the word "tyranny" to Europeans, they basically think you're a crackpot.
I have seen things change a teeny bit with the war in Ukraine, where folks get at least somewhat concerned, but the concerns are still about an external boogyman. Nowhere is there any realization that big government, with a lot of unelected bureaucrats, typically becomes the enemy of the people because "power corrupts."
The tyranny is much closer there than in the EU.
That is of course a gross misrepresentation of what is happening (and I'm being charitable here).
Re being dragged off: https://www.al.com/news/mobile/2025/05/alabama-worker-says-i...
Re torture: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alligator-alcatraz-flor...
I'm not going to play this game of me investing my time in random links posted to this discussion, but as a once time exception:
- The first link claims a man got detained where ICE thought he had a fake ID but where he was actually a citizen. From the article: "It is not clear where the construction is located and efforts to find contact information for Venegas were not successful. Efforts to reach ICE representatives for comment were not immediately successful." So we have an unsubstantiated claim in an online publication. Is it true? Maybe. If it is, then the worst claimed here is that someone one detained. Not even arrested, let alone anything worse than that. This certainly does not rise to the claims you're making. If the article is true, this is likely an operational mistake that was corrected soon afterwards.
- The second link claims that the mosquitoes in a new temporary detention facility amount to torture. Do I like the optics of the facility? No. Do I want people in detention to get treated with dignity? Of course. The claim of torture is quite extraordinary though. If the facility is not up to standards, I have trust in the system that it will get closed.
Regarding the second point, you purposefully picked the least offensive part (the mosquitoes, as opposed to the starvation, the sleep deprivation, the quarters tigher than in concentration camps), to misrepresent what is happening here.
It is exactly behavioral patterns like these that make it hard to assume good faith argument.
> Regarding the first point, you are leaning heavily on euphemisms ("detained") to make your case.
No, "detained" is a precise legal term that is used in the article in the intended legal way. It's a step prior to arrest, where an officer has stopped you for some probably cause. When detained, you are not allowed to leave, while the officer checks what's going on. The result can be that you are free to go, or that things escalate to an arrest (you are taken in custody).
It is my hope and belief that any such mistakes would be swiftly corrected, and that the undocumented people that are impacted by this policy are treated with dignity and respect, while still encouraging legal immigration into this country. Furthermore I would expect that the odds of a US citizen or otherwise legal resident to be arrested and deported to be virtually zero.
Then they came for the legal immigrants they didn't like and I did not speak out, because I was not a legal immigrant. [0]
Then they came for their political enemies [1] and I did not speak up, because I was not their political enemy.
Then they came for me - and there was noone left to speak for me.
[0] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jul/01/trump-zohran...
[1] https://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/rnc-2016-lock-her-up-...
> This will catch the x% of lone wolf terrorists who are too mentally unwell to use encryption and too unwell to hide their intentions.
> Without this, the relative increase in terrorism will cause strongmen to get elected who will just enact even more severe surveillance, among many other bad things.
> So it's not a choice between surveillance and no surveillance. It's a choice between relative levels of badness.
> This will also catch real criminals by listening to their close family members who have worse OPSEC than the criminals.
The criminals aren't the masterminds people portrait in the movies.
How about the criminals that are not yet caught
Also, criminals usually have poor operational security—far from perfect. The seriousness of the offense isn't related to the quality of their opsec.
Regulators and law enforcement are generally rational. They may be short-sighted, but they often have reasonable explanations for things you might dismiss as stupid.
That sucks, CSAM sucks, emotional regulation sucks, and as a society, we don't know how to manage allowing kids online. In fact we don't even know, what we'd like. From a political/policy standpoint, that's the challenge of the next 20 years.
The sad truth is that law enforcement doesn't have the resources to go after a huge chunk of the cases - particularly before anything serious happens.
For this reason giving them even more power won't markedly increase prevention, but will introduce more cases of people abusing said power. Ultimately the government is run by people, and people are fallible:
https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/09/loveint-given...
I wonder if anyone believes those measure are actually against childporn.
The important thing also is that this total massive invasion of privacy won't be for all. You don't get gov transparency but the opposite. The asymmetry of information only increases that power to oppress.
The EU has always been 90 days from passing mass surveliance for the last decade. Until member states start actually backing this these articles are nothing but click bait.
Awareness is good but there is a fine line between awareness of specific politicians that suck and just misrepresenting the facts.
To use a real world example take this "EU deal" that Trump did. Everyone is talking like its already taken effect. But the reality is the EU just handshake agreed to this, but at the end of the day all of the member states have to rattify it. And if states dont or if there are arguements made the whole thing gets tossed.
I just wish people would say that they dont understand how the EU works. At some point some Dutch mayor is going to say that the inernet should be free, and "tech journalists" are going to write articles talking about how all EU citizens will have Fibre cables connected to them at all times.
Just look at the Brexit vote for an example of how little people understand the EU and how it works.
Once such EU-wide regulations are fully passed (incl. the EP), the countries have to implement them in their law. Sure, they can drag their feet, or there actually might be a real showdown, for example, if the German Constitutional Court says that this is against the Grundgesetz and that it does not recognize supremacy of EU law over itself / the German Constitution. If the same happens in Poland, there will be extra drama added.
But at the same time, at least half of the EU, countries with negligible tech sector, will happily pass that legislation without any significant friction, because a) think of the children, b) monitoring opposition and dissent, yay!, c) we have to, because Brussels said so, d) the lawmakers know shit about encryption and tech and they will be exempt from monitoring anyway, so encryption is something that is only used by criminals and terrorists and if you have nothing to hide etc. etc.
At which point you have the surveillance infrastructure installed and in operation across half the continent, and with elections changing governments, it will spread.
Our main protection used to be that small countries like Slovenia or Malta don't have the weight to push Apple or Google to introduce deliberate holes in their software.
If the European Commission joins the push, that is a completely different pressure.
What this person is writing is correct. The reality of EU politics is anything but democratic. The EU is crowned by an unelected commission that does not serve the interests of the governed.
It is thus as democratically legitimized as any ministerial role in any government, or as the US presidency.
Please do not spread disinformation.
What's more the Commission is more than one person, unlike the US presidency.
Do you call ministers in your country unelected? Would you call the US president unelected?
I agree the Comission doesn't serve the interests of the governed, but that's because the people keep voting against their own interests and vote in right-wing governments, which in turn appoints a right-wing commission, which then does the right-wing thing of selling out its people.
It is not a structural EU fault, it is the electorate that's to blame.
Don't know about emptysongglass's country, but in France, ministers are absolutely unelected. The president is directly elected, who then appoints the prime minister, who then "proposes" the other ministers of his government. There is no strict rule by which the prime minister is chosen, only a "habit" to choose from the "winning camp", which was not respected by Macron these last two times. There's also no rule for how the ministers are picked. As you can imagine, this is largely backroom deals.
The last two prime ministers have all been deemed unsatisfactory by the parties with the most votes in the last legislative elections and by those who voted for them (people voted directly for their representatives in the lower chamber of parliament). These prime ministers were from parties that scored lower in the elections.
The only elected body in the EU is the EU parliament which has practically no powers when compared to the commission. It can only vote on what the commission proposes, it cannot make its own proposals. It cannot overrule the commission. And the commission can make rules and regulations of its own, without involving the parliament. The most the parliament can do is hold up the process a little.
The EU is not democratic by any sensible measure. "But there is an election somewhere in the process" doesn't make a democracy. Many dictatorships, communist regimes and even monarchies do have an election somewhere in the process. The emperor has no clothes, and the EU isn't democratic. Any timid initiative to make it so has died ages ago. The last straw was the trumped up non-election of von-der-Leyen. Actually, the parliament should have filled her job with its candidate, as was promised before the election. After election day, that promise which was intended to introduce at least a whiff of democratic accountability, was instantly forgotten. von der Leyen was instated instead of the parliaments candidate by a back-room deal.
Is there any democratic power by your standards? You are moving the goal posts so far I don't think anything fits your narrow definition.
The US is actually more democratic than e.g. Germany, because the president is elected by the people (though indirectly), not by parliament. Therefore a political oligarchy could be prevented, because the majority in parliament and the president can check on each other, and the president is more accountable to the voters than to parliament.
Generally there is a sliding scale of course, but the less directly officials are elected, the less democratic a country is. A common example would be a soviet (engl. "council") republic, which isn't considered democratic at all, even though it has tons of elections: Each factory/town/village elects a local workers's council, which in turn elects a county council, which elects a regional council, which elects a state council, which elects a national council, which elects the council of ministers, which elects the chairman. Tons of filters that make absolutely certain that the will of the party and state always supercedes the will of the people.
The German president is mainly a figurehead with limited power. The office was stripped down after WWII.
The real power lies with the ministers, who can issue absolute orders that have to be obeyed without question. One of many results is that German prosecutors cannot be trusted with issuing EU wide arrest warrants and had the ability stripped from them the moment it was challenged in court.
The US electoral college is an historical artifact that simply rubber stamps the votes of the States. The member states' heads of government make the decision themselves! The equivalent would be the electoral college simply voting for the president themselves.
Jesus christ.
That is... exactly what they are doing?
While there have been a tiny numbers of faithless electors in the past, they have never influenced the outcome of a presidential election. Furthermore, about 80% of electors are from states that have laws that require their electors to vote for the candidate who wins the state's popular vote.
The EU is governed by backroom deals and is extremely opaque. Adding to everything you said: there is no accountability, there is little presence of EU matters in newspapers, EU leaders hardly even attempt to communicate with their people (practically only von der Leyen or António Costa make public speeches).
Just compare: you surely know the names of all or almost all ministers of your country. Do you know the names of even 2 out of the 27 commissioners? Scrutiny of their doings and the laws that are proposed appear in news regularly. Does such scrutiny exist of EU institutions?
It's not a democracy.
Matter of fact, you're commenting on a news article about EU happenings right now.
If one is only the slightest bit informed, one has probably heard of Kaja Kallas, the foreign affairs commissioner or Maroš Šefčovič, the trade comissioner.
These are not some big secret names, but public figures with well-articulated positions that regularly hold press conferences.
The background is pretty machiavellistic, though. There is a lot of money and influence to be managed. It is no secret that Ursula von der Leyen got her first mandate basically from Merkel, a reward for being her loyal subordinate for years.
It's not "only Denmark". There are just a handful of countries in the EU opposing Chat Control, not because they care about privacy.
It keeps us aware of how stupid the powers that be are.
-> Discord/Google/Meta/etc are already scanning the private chats for pictures, and they didn't wait for a law.
To fix pedophiles, supporters of terrorism and gang members, there is a more radical solution: fund justice and police so dangerous people can be put in jail (or kill them if that's something you think is right).
Once this is done, there is no need anymore to monitor conversations outside of current scope.
Though, justice is not fair in practice, so there will be collateral innocent victims (like with privacy invasion) :/
Here the wolf is clearly visible.
When they really come, people won’t bother reading the news.
Not true. The truth is that Chat Control has returned several times already and the majority of the EU states were actually always for, but a blocking minority has been reached each time - barely so.
Worryingly, one of the blocking minority countries used to be Germany, where privacy-minded smaller parties (Greens, FDP) are no longer in government. The new government hasn't declared its position yet. If it switches to yes, then the remnants of our privacy are kaput just like that, and the only hope will be in the ECHR, or possibly (sigh) in Trump's tech bros angrily vetoing it from abroad.
So, no one freak from Denmark, but a concerted, repeated effort.
There is an even worse set of measures in the phase of preparation, ProtectEU, which would mandate backdoors in everything under the pain of prison for vendors, introduce mandatory data retention and ban non-logging VPNs.
Fuck, I don't want to live in a China with a blue flag instead of red. This is absolutely dystopian.
Don't downplay the danger. Don't spread disinformation. This isn't a random shot from a random weirdo in Denmark. This is a seriously driven EU-wide attempt to destroy meaningful encryption with a lot of proponents and backers. And the current EC chair, Ursula von der Leyen, has a history of promoting such measures, that is why Germans call her Zensursula.
https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/
Take a look across his page and his social network media, he had nice maps for each round, so hopefully they are still there.
I think it's too late. People already showed they'd loudly support this if propagandized enough like during COVID times where the most draconian and anti constitutional of policies were enacted, literally following and lobbied by China.
Unless people recognize that they did a terrible thing in supporting covid policies instead of burying their head under the sand or persisting in the ridiculous propaganda about anti-vaxxers and disinformation, they're always going to be easily manipulated. The same goes for the "let's invade new country because 'dictator/terrorism/grave threat to our western way of life'".
Are we the baddies is a rethorical question at this point.
And I think this is partially caused by fear of possible backlash.
Also, anti constitutional and anti human rights is wrong no matter if it's temporal or not.
But hey, you supported it, now deal with the fallout. Temporary like the war on terror. Give me a break.
Do you know what's even funnier with the UK? Parliament has most of the power
Ironically, my commandline skills may yet save me :)
So getting upset that people talk about it when it gets tabled once again is illogical and unjustifiable.
If they look like they support a very unpopular decision a big public backlash can definitely make them reconsider. Depending on how secure they are in the national politics.
For example why do you think Denmark is submitting this now? Because the somewhat right wing gov in Poland that vetoed it last time is no longer in power. Instead Mr Europe (Tusk) is the prime minister. If EU beurocracy was embodied in a person it would be him. He was the president of the commission. He was the vice-leader of the EU People's Party - the biggest party in the EU parliament. He had his first political party funded by German SPD in cash... He also lost last parliamentary election in Poland, but still came out on top by making a coalition with three smaller parties (some say one was made exactly for that purpose few years ago). He will for sure do everything in his power to have this passed.
But his government is a minority one, and at least two of these three coalition parties are mainly supported by young people from large cities. And those were the people that undermined it last time by demonstrating (believe it or not the previous mildly right wing gov was not entirely opposed to having more control over people, but they had to quickly change their mind and veto it after mass demonstrations). So I'm hoping there is no chance in hell it'll pass.
Also, if it did, there is no chance it will be signed into the law by the current president or not be deemed unconstitutional by the constitutional Court... The EU and Tusk have claimed the court is "illegitimate" for years, but that is a long story. So in short, pushing this issue despite strong opposition definitely has a potential to blow up Polish politics. No PM leading a minority gov would do something like this intentionally while his party is loosing popular support every month.
Members of EU commission are nominated by the European Council and elected by the European Parliament. Principle of subsidiary is absolutely abolished and far from direct democracy.
The EU parliament is fake, and the unelected commission has become a pathetic clown show. Their latest VP addition, Antonio Costa, had to be removed from office in Portugal because he was too corrupt. But good enough for leadership of the EU commission.
They had a violent rhetoric, prolonged artificially to this day the Ukraine war and watched the population being slaughtered without sending any troops. So instead of loosing a few territory, the Ukrainian population is now dead demographically. If you prolong enough a war and the population is wreaked, the war is lost. This is what happened in WWI.
Just in the last few days they managed to be humiliated by both the US and China. China went so far to park them in a bus, arrive with no welcoming and have a walk of shame with in silence on a faded carpet.
The EU was about democracy, peace and prosperity. Today it is is pursuing the opposite objectives.
Downvote me if you want, I care more about staying alive than any internet karma points.
The situation here in Denmark is dire: nobody in the Danish media reports on it, so everybody just shrugs. I've gone out of my way to educate my coworkers and most are unaware many members of our parliament want this. The number of parties that support it outnumber those who don't. Writing to our representatives is met with silence.
Everyone looking to Denmark as a model state should beware what happens when you have a population with such high trust in its government: the roots of autocracy are allowed to grow unfettered.
Title tries to scare while content says it's just a topic being reintroduced. If anybody knows EU laws and is aware that to introduce such change all states need to agree... then I just wish DK good luck until it's anyhow confirmed at _all_ not many states do support this.
I come from different EU state and I first time hear this is big topic, seems then it's not such a big topic outside Denmark maybe?
Denmark is currently one of the nicest places you can find in the world. If that’s what happens when you trust the government then sign me up!
PS. I know the situation can quickly deteriorate if you’re not constantly monitoring what the government does and agree with OP on that. Just thought it was incredibly naive to try to make the point that this can lead to an autocracy while showing one of the most well functioning democracies in the world. The USA seems like a much better example, and even then compared to most countries in the world, as you can see by the amount of people trying to move there, it’s still a pretty damn nice place to go.
Like that?
https://cphpost.dk/2024-05-05/news/climate/danish-companies-...
>>Danish companies breach EU law, dump toxic waste into sea – Environment Ministry waves it through
Or that?
https://eos.org/thelandslideblog/nordic-waste-1
>>The Nordic Waste landslide scandal in Denmark
Maybe how about that? (50 years ago)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K--KsfrEhPI
>>How Denmark forced young women in Greenland to get IUDs
And who still take away the babies of Greenlandic mothers in Denmark.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/jun/29/controv...
I'm not complaining that much about it -- you have a fantastic social security system, low inequality, high pay and high taxes, leading to a happy and well educated population and great food (no upf!) -- but it is a vision of the 1960s nanny state that really does think it knowd best.
True like not banning bestiality until 2015....
The Danish national television made a documentary, there's also a short article: https://www.dr.dk/om-dr/programmer-og-koncerter/candy-film-d... you can probably just run it through Google translate. The worst part is that it took like 10 - 11 years to fix.
A lot of the stuff the government registeres about an individual is required to ensure that things runs as smoothly and efficiently as they do, even if Danes will frequently complain that the government is anything but smooth and efficient. There was always an understanding and laws protecting that data from being misused. Those rules have slowly been eroding over the past 20 years or so, by increasingly zealots politicians seeking to be "tough on crime and misuse of government services (i.e. brown people not working and living on social welfare)".
Illegal access to information about citizens are pretty frequent, yet our politicians don't seem to ever wanting to back down from collection and analysing data. They are either not smart enough to see the dangers or they are deliberately attempting to create a surveillance state.
things are working: why do we pay so much for IT/security or XYZ tool, we don't need it.
things are on fire: we pay so much money for IT/security or XYZ tool and it didn't help us
though, because lawful intercept is also a thing in EU, its stupid to assume they do not already have access if they want it.
despite not having 'dragnet' surveillance , they have effective and deep targeted surveillance and laws that allow them to do that fairly freely.... (most countries are more strict with their own citizens, but then its handy to have allies to do it for u -_-... wonderful world!)
As the article states "According to the former MEP for the German Pirate Party, Patrick Breyer, Denmark crucially needs to manage to convince Germany of its proposed text. The new government has not yet taken a position at the time of writing."
And since the current German government is bound to take the most idiotic and destructive path it is basically assured.
On one hand it is a terrible proposal that deserves exposure to generate pushback.
On the other hand it is still just a proposal, of which there are many (stupid ones) which never see the light of day. This still needs to pass the European Parliament (which is generally opposed to this, not in the least because it is very unpopular under EU citizens). Even then the chances of it surviving a challenge in the courts (of which there will be many) are tiny.
My point is that legislation can exist in a variety of stages. In the extreme case where we get stressed and angry at every proposal that any politician comes up with, we waste our energy instead of letting the specific systems introduced and thought up to mitigate issues with such proposals do the job efficiently.
Said otherwise: In some cases it effectively becomes crying wolf and makes people numb to and averse to hearing about it. As said, though: I am ambivalent towards news like this. In some cases we need to 'tell, tell, tell' to get the point through. It's a fine line, I think.
Whoever puts forth such ideas should be the first to show all their private communication. It shouldn't just be for the common citizens. How quickly the idea would be dropped ...
Selling drugs on the Internet is also illegal. Selling them in real life too. How many people are doing it still? Doesn't seem very effective, this solution.
Ironically when Apple introduced their solution it was actually better than what we have now. It was interesting to watch people lose their minds because they didn't understand how the current or proposed system worked.
Current system everything can be decrypted on the cloud and is scanned for CSAM by all ISPs/service providers.
Apple wanted the device to scan for CSAM and if it got flagged, it allowed the file to be decrypted on the cloud for a human to check it (again, what happens now).
If it didn't get flagged then it stayed encrypted on the cloud and no one could look at it. This not only was a better protection for your data, it has a massive reduction in server costs.
CSAM is also a list of hashes for some of the worst CP video/images out there. It doesn't read anything, just hash matching.
The chance of mismatch is so incredibly small to be almost non-existent.
Even so the current CSAM guidelines require a human to review the results and require multiple hits before you are even flagged. Again this is what is happening now.
Personally I'm against having any agency the ability to read private messages, while at the same time I fully agree with what CSAM is trying to do.
Realistically if countries want to read encrypted messages, they can already do so. Some do too. The fact that the EU is debating it is a good thing.
How? Are you implying adynchronous and synchronous encryption is broken? Because last time I checked since Snowden our encryption is basically the one single thing in the whole concept of the internet that has been done very right, with forward secrecy and long term security in mind. AFAIK there are no signs that someone or something has been able to break it.
Also, the solutions you present do imply that someone already has the private key to decrypt. Sure, they'll say they'll just decrypt if your a bad person, but the definition of a bad person changes from government to government (see USA), and from CEO to CEO. Encryption should and mostly is built on zero trust and it only works with zero trust. Scanning, and risking the privacy of billions and billions of messages by having the key to read them because there have been some bad actors is fighting a fly with a bazooka. Which sounds funny overkill, but, fun fact, it also just doesn't work. It destroys a lot, and gains nothing.
I don't have a better solution for the problem. But this solution is definitely the wrong one.
A couple of guys with 5$ wrenches can be pretty effective at extracting cryptographic secrets.
That is like saying that Guantanamo can defeat religious terrorism. In individual cases, yes, on the whole, absolutely not.
And of course does this really solve the real problem of child exploitation? No it doesn't. It allows performative folk working for NGOs to feel like they've done something while children are still being abused and it is being covered up or not even investigated as is so common today.
Improving policing and investigatory standards is where this should stop. We already have RIPA.
All this does is create the expectation that a surveillance dragnet is acceptable. It is not.
Once you have an established mechanism for "fighting crime", "don't use it to fight that type of crime" is not a position that has any chance of prevailing in the political landscape - see also all the cases of national security wiretaps being used against petty druggies.
I agree that the discussion is evolving the bill every time and there are always good amounts of feedback and comments.
It’s a bit annoying when tech websites don’t always update themselves with the latest changes, just labelling it ChatControl doesn’t mean it’s the same policy that was discussed 5 years ago. It makes for good click bait titles, but the technical nuances are missing.
For example, one would be interested to read a comparison between the “privacy” of a tool matching photos against a database of signatures vs. say Apple’s performative privacy in the Photos app or the iCloud + chatGPT/Apple Intelligence mix.
The list presumably contains CSAM hashes. However, it could also include hashes for other types of content.
AFAIK the specific scope at any point in time is not something that can be fully evaluated by independent third parties, and there is no obvious reason why this list could not be extended to cover different types of content in the future.
Once it is in place, why not search for documents that are known to facilitate terrorism? What about human trafficking? Drug trafficking? Antisemitic memes spring to mind. Or maybe memes critical of some government, a war, etc.
This is because, despite the CSAM framing, it is essentially a censorship/surveillance infrastructure. One that is neutral with regard to content.
What, the cloud scanning of user photos was a good idea for you? The private companyt deciding what is good or bad idea? The automated surveillance that could lead to people wrongfully accused idea?
> f it didn't get flagged then it stayed encrypted on the cloud and no one could look at it.
If Apple can decrypt your data when they find a match, they can decrypt ALL your data. Who says it will be used for good? Do you trust a private company this much?
Anything that eventually passes will be extremely toothless.
In addition to that, the AfD is not known for being predictable.
The party lacks a strong institutional core. It is shaped by competing factions, with a weak internal agenda-setting process and a tendency to align with whatever the decision maker closest to making a statement currently perceives as fitting their brand. Positions often shift as a result.
For example, they made a strong commitment to protecting cash, then later pushed for a mandatory payment card system for refugees, explicitly to tighten financial control over that group. In practice, that dramatically helps to normalize financial control through payment systems.
So, TL;DR: no one really knows. They’re inconsistent and hard to forecast.
This combination of mass surveillance and secrecy is downright toxic
If I want to casually keep in touch with a friend, I am supposed to have the following options:
- SMS/RCS: no need for an app but is controlled
- WhatsApp: no good to many reasons
- Signal: how can you believe it is not controlled once it becomes the mandatory app in the US Gov.
- Matrix: great but you need to self host a server, create accounts, etc.
- SimpleX: very interesting, but centralised and I feel it might just be the next Signal. Might be a solution since you can exit at some point by self hosting a server and I guess have alternative implementations.
- Delta chat: great but I guess email fall into the mass surveillance target.
Now most people do not have crazy security requirements and just want to be able to send a simple text message to a friend and be notified instantly without participating in mass surveillance. So why even using a formal Chat app that will be target by a regulation like Chat Control or kicked out of the App store?
Something like Gotify [0] or ntfy [1] are almost enough for most users. It has the whole free from Google and Apple push notification system figured out. You would just need to modify a bit the app to exchange keys with a QR code for individual topics (that you would use as contact or groups).
In a way we just need MQTT servers, a client with reliable push notifications and a manual key exchange mechanism. That would be really hard for govs to target.
- [0] https://gotify.net/
- [1] https://ntfy.sh/
cryptography?
Isn't this a good sign? When the US Gov has enough trust to use it internally and officials are already using it for their communications, would this not mean that the service is truly encrypted.
They could have some sort of switch for it, but the frontend is open-source and that's where the encryption happens.
Go even further: Meshtastic (https://meshtastic.org/). P2P E2EE texting, primarily via LoRa mesh (a mesh of long-range low-bandwidth direct radio connections) plus MQTT backup, with surprisingly nice UX even for non-techies. You can message people directly, or create encrypted groups too.
In effect, you broadcast your message (encrypted) via LoRa (travels a couple of kilometers through apartment blocks in a big city, or up to hundreds of kilometers in open countryside with line-of-sight), and then anybody else with meshtastic rebroadcasts it, up to 3 hops by default. Works OK for local chat through normal nodes, or really well if somebody within a few kilometers has a router on a roof/big hill nearby (map of opted-into-mapping public nodes: https://meshmap.net/ - IME that's about 10% of actual nodes). Optionally uses MQTT when there's any kind of internet connection available so you can chat long-range too (there's a public MQTT server available, or you can run your own) although that's not really the main use case.
No paid intermediaries or services involved, doesn't require a cell plan or internet or anything, even if the whole world collapses, you just keep on texting (for as long as you have battery).
Requires either a tiny radio gateway (e.g. https://lilygo.cc/products/t-echo-meshtastic) that you connect through with your phone via BT, or you can get a standalone device (https://lilygo.cc/products/t-deck-plus-1) but <$100 in either case. Low-bandwidth though: only text & GPS, no pictures or audio. And obviously, this is pretty deep in the weird nerd shit so it might be a hard sell for your grandparents, and by its nature it's mostly useful for the local area chat anyway. Perfect for trips to low connectivity zones though (hiking, skiing, etc).
Now the most exiting project in that space IMHO is Reticulum because you can transparently mix transports: any radio (incl LoRa), TCP, UDP, etc. [0]
Their Sideband app [1] is not as polished as Meshtastic but you can start over the standard Internet, or I2P, yggdrasil and slowly introduce LoRa among your group of friends over time and if necessary.
Their LXMF messaging format is also interesting.
Those people are really doing a fantastic work.
- [0] https://reticulum.network/manual/interfaces.html
SSH into a UNIX host and 'talk'.
KISS.
I would just find a simple SSH application and give it to all of the chat participants.
Then I would establish a 1U server that I own and control, or even a raspi in my own house, and have everyone log in to run some simple (and old) version of 'talk' - presumably one that has a "wall" feature.
Very simple and very low trust.
Further, the exploit(s) required to infiltrate this are extremely valuable and also hyper specific.
I would have to be an extremely valuable and urgent target for any actor to burn an honest-to-god OpenSSH 0day on ... or a remote root FreeBSD exploit of a system running nothing but OpenSSH.
Bonus points if no ports are open and you have to knock ... which suggests a threat model of remote root vuln on a system with no ports open.
FWIW I have no use for such an edifice.
And allow any citizen to try to hack their 100% secure backdoors without any fear of consequences.
It after 5 years everything is OK, that is, no data has been leaked, no information access abuse has occurred, the test group has not been affected psychologically in a negative way by this potential surveillance, they should present the results, including how many criminals and deranged people have been caught and imprisoned through the direct help of this technology.
Then set it up for a direct vote by the people.
Else they should just fuck off with their ideas.
Now, at the moment, I don't have a good english language source, but I am sure someone else could provide one?
Here is a german language one[0], from netzpolitik.org, who follow chat control for years now an have many articles going in depth about this. I am sure you could use translation software to read it until someone provides a better source. (And if you have not heard of this, you should!)
And while someone already linked to patrick breyers website[1] which has a good overview, I do so again so maybe more people will see it. This thing is not new, but it is also not easily ignored and everyone should be informed whats going on here. They will try to pass this again and again since they have done for years now and it's mostly been close calls until now.
[0] https://netzpolitik.org/2023/anlasslose-massenueberwachung-r...
iwontberude•13h ago
jeffhuys•13h ago
Oh when it was just for "easier international trade". What a good one.
saubeidl•13h ago
The whole "unelected" angle is europhobic propaganda.
collyw•12h ago
saubeidl•12h ago
iwontberude•13h ago
asyx•13h ago
PeterStuer•13h ago
Digital Services Act:
https://howtheyvote.eu/votes/139040
saubeidl•12h ago
input_sh•12h ago
I swear this website never ceases to amaze me.
NekkoDroid•10h ago
raron•7h ago
EP elections can be fairly useless, because you don't vote for parties of the EP, just some local parties who may all sit in the side of the EP you don't like.