For example, if trade imbalances were so bad, we should sink any ship that comes into the US as this reduces trade imbalances (absurd example from Bastiat btw).
Analogy with human specialization is flawed, because human attention span is limited. Even there the famous Heinlein quote on versatility still applies.
It's unambiguously true that free markets has made South Korea significantly, mind-bendingly wealthier than the North. And on the subject of fertility, birth rates are so low (1.8) that you have Kim Jong Un crying on national TV, begging women to have more kids.
Personally, I have this pet theory (irrational, it may be) that as the boomers die off across the West, newer generations will pick up having more kids and TFR will level off. Like new growth springing up in a forest after a wildfire burns up all the old, dry wood.
Something similar to the post-war baby boom.
If economic actors can choose what comparative advantages they possess (e.g. by moving the economic factors or through training or investment), the theory becomes meaningless. It turns into a predestination fallacy since it myopically focuses on geographical factors that happen to not matter that much in the modern world.
What economic advice would the theory of comparative advantage give to China in the 1960s?
If it is "just do the free trade", it would have been wrong. China started to implement its market reforms with dual pricing to protect its own citizens from the foreign markets.
Now that is an actual comparative advantage that is actually hard to replicate due to huge entry costs.
(To lower the costs of labor further you need to actually give out life basics for free! China gets away with this by having a huge population competing thus far, but it won't hold.)
What are they?
In this case, you also forget that the pricing signals have a time horizon, which is bounded by the expected time of survival of the private company being non-competitive. But government (society) can take a longer term view than a company that is influenced by pricing signals, See the LG example I gave elsewhere in this thread.
Another reason is incomplete information. Free market works in theory because you assume complete information; in the real world, this is not the case.
It's not a theory. Firms trade internationally because it's cheaper, not because they "believe" in free markets.
> But government (society) can take a longer term view than a company that is influenced by pricing signals
Private markets routinely make multi-decade bets; entire industries (mining, energy, infrastructure, biotech) work on 20–100 year horizons. Risk and time are already priced in.
> Free market works in theory because you assume complete information
Free markets don’t "assume" anything; they function through decentralized price signals. And even with imperfect information, dispersed actors still aggregate and react to knowledge far better than any central planner can.
If China believed in it theyd still be making cheap plastic tat. If the west hadnt believed in it China's industrial rise probably wouldnt have been quite so shocking - 90s/00s neolib economists thought China was shooting itself in the foot.
After all, it's easier to further an already existing advantage.
It sounds stupid, but so do many intellectual fashions of a bygone era.
I understand international politics are completely different, but it is hard for me to understand how comparative advantage would not be useful at that level as well.
But for commonly used goods that every person needs, every country would benefit from producing these on their own, thanks to various synergies.
Specialization has also transaction cost. If you're skilled it might be better to plumb some things yourself than call a professional and risk him being a hack.
So I don't think it's one system being better than other. Rather, specialization is like paralelism - there is a transaction cost due to nonlocality, but also better scaling. So, like with paralelism, the rule should be - try as much as you can to produce locally, and specialize only where the scale advantage becomes really strong (usually that happens with high-tech products that are needed in very low quantities - by centralizing production, knowhow is easier to apply and capital costs are easier to justify).
There is an opportunity cost to closing the borders and trying to do everything yourself, which you are not considering.
The USA was unique in that it was always outspoken with patriotism, and to lesser extent with classical nationalism than usual. Maybe the US is reaching some stage where it grows its own proper form of good-old ethnic nationalism, whether it's a good thing or not...
I don't know why there's a need to hedge. Smith's observations were incredibly objective and insightful and have aged extremely well.
There were areas where his observations were incomplete or refined later (absolute vs relative advantage, paradox of value, efficiency of corporations).
Even Karl Marx found little in Smith's work that was disagreeable.
The Wealth of Nations is a seminal piece of Western civilization and deserves all the respect we can bestow such works.
People are not utility calculating machines. I would say these utility theories (I would call them theories of subjective value) have several flaws:
1. There are some things that all sane humans objectively (universally) value (things like survival, not being harmed, time and energy expenditure).
2. Sometimes humans simply value things that other humans value, as a shortcut to expending energy in figuring out what to value.
3. Any reasonably good theory value has to incorporate incomplete information that people have, and thus might value something that is not valuable and vice versa due to lack of information.
Some of these lead to nonlinear behavior which is really not well captured by an additive theory such as marginal theory of value.
Previously it was ordinary differential equations. Now attempting to solve these is intractable for such a big and complex system so far, and worse if you misrepresented the model or approximated ot too much.
So essentially all the theories with an equation are a guess.
Doubly so for theories without an equation that are not tied to experimental data... (Hello Austrians)
First, because Menger, creator of the Austrian school of economics, uses methodological individualism. That means it includes the fact people have incomplete information and subjective value (for example based on what others value). These are points 2,3.
About point 1, you clearly don't understand marginalism. You value more water over gold, but a glass of water is cheaper than the same weight of gold. If you were thirsty and about to die in the middle of the desert, you'd pay up to infinite money for a glass of water and 0 for gold. But you value just the next marginal unit of water, not the first one, so you know you can have as many glasses of water as you want just by opening the tap. I'm sure in your lifetime you'll spend way more money on water/beverages than on gold, but a single glass of water is cheaper.
A lot of this is enabled in part by all these capitalists rolling over and submitting.
I'm not convinced. There is no coherence in their decisions, well any more than tossing out red meat. We can't even call them protectionist policies. It's just populism.
Still, I agree about isolationist. But we started down that road with W and are now running off that cliff with Trump. Not coherently but enthusiastically.
Putting a heroin addict in charge of Health and Human Services and shutting down vaccine development is not policy. It's populism.
Here he is on CBS News, 30 July 2025
https://youtu.be/Ez_KJp4fDy0?t=65
"The reason we put tariffs on products from other countries is because they cheat, full stop. When they cheat, products come in and they steal our jobs, shut down our factories, and wages go down. So, the logic of tariffs is to stop that."
There's consequences to mercantilism. For starters, the best products may no longer win. Justifying anything by "best product won due to consumer choice" will be a laughable reason. Justifying respect for founders and CEOs as intelligent or better isn't possible. A successful founder or CEO is just better at sucking up or whatever it takes to be blessed by authority.
There's some consequences to this reversal to conservatism as well. How can any thinking man believe a justification from principles now? They're reversible. Conservatives lose any kind of intellectual high ground, even in retrospect. Are they reasoning from principles now or were they doing it then? Can't tell.
But does the best product really always win? As a fan of BeOS, it doesn't seem that way to me.
I'm not sure what country you're from but in the US conservatism has always been a reductionist, post-hoc justification of doing "whatever the hell I want because I can", going back as far as I know political history. Civil war era at least, when states rights were when it was good for me and Federal enforcement when it was bad.
The market was free when that was how these groups made the most money, now that they arent making the most money its tossed out like yesterdays garbage. And if you believed "reasoning from principles" fluff around it, I think you could reconsider what incentives lead you originally down that path of weaponized naivety that is so common in this community (organized as it is around making money.)
If the free market is good for my business, it is good. Same thing with foreign relations. Same thing with control over democratic instutions.
Always look at what people do, not what they say.
(Keep in mind though, that just because things have always been this way does not justify getting bitter over it. Society has been through this before.)
Under those constraints the "best product" largely does not win now.
This trade war isn't about righting trade imbalances. It's about the USA exerting leverage over countries that it can get away with. Just like a Mafia Don.
Or to quote a crude summary from Peaky Blinders: "Big $ucks small".
That's the philosophy of the Trump Administration in a nutshell.
Peak Oil is going to happen soon 2020-25. China's oil demand in 2025 dropped from previous years. Even in the "drill baby drill" USA refineries are closing do to falling demand in the USA.
The private sector does not see new pipelines as economically viable. Trudeau had to step in to finish the Trans Mountain twinning. Existing pipelines that go to the USA are only at 75% capacity. If Canada wants to ship oil to Europe or Asia they should ship it by rail. It would be foolish to spend money on new pipelines when overall demand for oil is declining. And by the time these pipelines would be completed Peak Oil would be a done deal.
Develop more trade with Asia and Europe (which the current govt appears to be trying to do). A big problem is this emerging multipolar world means the USA is going to increasingly pressure Canada to become even more of a vassal state.
This youtube channel has excellent information about Canada's Engergy Future: Energi Media https://www.youtube.com/@EnergiMedia/videos
I think that the attitude that "the big eats the small", and its consequences (that is: the trade war and the accompanying uncertainty for business, slashed science funding, tax cuts that lead to more debt for the country, and all the other potentially disasterous policy decisions) America and the world will pay a very heavy price.
I guess the proper term is "Social Darwinism". Trump will do whatever he can get away with. That's his only code.
Supposedly architect Andrew Tesoro did some work on one of Trump's golf courses. He invoiced Trump for $140,000. Trumps lawyers offered $50,000. They threatened to drag it out in the courts otherwise. He agreed to charge $50k. Trump didn't pay. Tesoro contacted Trump. Trump offered half that, $25,000. Tesoro got $25k. Trump's transactions are all about leverage.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestreptalks/2016/07/13/this...
Trump wants Canada to help more with policing the illegal drug trade.
The WTO was entirely built on the idea that "if you insist on hitting your face that hard, I'll hit my face and then you will see it!"
The reality is much more stupid though. Recent policies have been made without any plan to begin with. There is no driving philosophy of "we must create modern mercantilism" and the resulting policies being a coherent plan to bring about that change. Instead actions are being made based on the split second decision making of a moron would lacks the most basic understanding of economics much less mercantilism.
This is a decidedly worse world than one in which the plan is simply a bad one. A bad plan would at least be coherent and something that our allies could predict and make their own plans around. Nevertheless, I think the thesis is broadly correct as being the outcome of recent actions.
You're likely right, but it likely won't happen for about 3.5 years during which time much damage will be done.
The trend of the US pulling out of the "global order" has already been happening. It's just that Trump is taking something that was happening gradually, and through his policy button-mashing, accelerated it much faster
This is just a prisoner's dilemma.
Probably wouldn't work out well, but that is the shiny object they are transfixed on.
Ironically, PPP is exactly the kind of myopic metric Germany would use to self-access right now.
- Milton Friedman
Being obsessed about trade deficit is missing the forest for the trees. If you can run a successful modern economy just by sending out slips of paper, that's a great deal.
That said, even Friedman made a caveat for national defense. If war breaks out and you have no manufacturing capacity, there are theoretically bad problems there.
It also doesn't account for cultural concerns. Maybe a country that doesn't have enough manual labor jobs develops weakness and stagnation?
In contrast the US economy is service-based and thus isn't constrained to scale their prices up so much. Of course manufacturing becomes very hard to maintain when skilled workers can earn >100k.
All stats show that top US tech companies earn incredible amounts of money but their share of GDP growth isn't as big as the Mag7 share of the stock markets makes you think. (<15% of GDP growth in 2024)
Cars are great: we need good cars, but more than that, we need good tools to fix the cars.
Taiwan make/have some of the best tools in the world. There's no reason the USA can't do the same. We once did.
I do buy good Taiwanese-made tools unless there's a better American-made tool.
China's rise can be attributed to taking advantage of the neoliberal order. Many of their nationalistic successes come through things like currency manipulation, hiding illegal subsidies, intellectual property theft, and using state monopolies to bully other nations and their corporations.
It's a prisoner's dilemma. If everyone copies China's playbook, there is nothing left to take advantage of. We will all be poorer for it.
It cannot be understated that we are getting front row seats to the end of Pax Americana. In a world where countries can no longer enjoy reliable trade for commodities, we are going to revert to a world of imperialist land grabs and violence.
I don't agree with everything Peter Zeihan writes, but he did a good job of capturing this in "The end of the world is just the beginning"[0].
It feels like it is going to be a rough couple of decades.
When the firefighters get blamed for causing fires because they are always present every time there is one.
This is not research; it's an opinion piece by a Bridgewater employee that may prove right in the years to come.
Plus, the rhetoric of differentiating China from the "free world" paints a Big Red Flag over the article's face.
> But as countries defected and adopted mercantilist policies, the global system lacked sufficient authority to stop them.
It's not the future. It's now.
We all understand that for most of human history, everyone lived at a subsistence level because we all had to farm our food, bake our bread, sew our clothes, build our own houses, etc.
Specialization is what makes the luxury and wealth of the modern world possible: you do one thing all day long and convert it to cash, then exchange value with people who do other stuff to get what you want. And since they're operating at scale, they can build more houses, make more stuff, etc. that you ever can if you did it yourself. So, you pay less for more stuff.
International trade simply takes it to the next level. For instance, the average American will not bend over to pick cocoa beans for chocolate for even $100k/yr. Many of you will argue, but all I'll say to you is that there's a reason agricultural work is referred to as back-breaking work. There's also a reason why farmers have the highest rate of suicides. Even if the American eventually agrees to do it, the cost will be so prohibitive that buying chocolate will be out-of-reach for everyone but the rich. Abundance ended; the end.
Now, using tariffs, the US gov. wants to take money away from customers and use it to prop up inefficient businesses that should be outsourced to other places that can do it well.
If the CCP wants to subsidize solar panels and sell them to you, why not accept free panels funded by diluting the wealth of Chinese workers and savers?
The main argument mercantilists use against free trade is that after establishing a monopoly, incumbents can raise prices. They forget that there's competition, even among solar manufacturers in China and anyone trying to bait and switch would be driven out of business by smaller, hungrier players.
And in this example, PV lasts 40-50 years and once you buy it, they can't gouge you.
No country has benefited from free trade like America; no bloc has benefitted like the West. You're mad at China for lifting hundreds of millions from grinding poverty, without realizing that Chinese mass production has cushioned the effect of all the money-printing by Western economies for decades now. Hundreds of millions of Chinese workers going into cities to work in manufacturing are the reason why many middle class workers across the West can afford cheap consumer goods, despite their government's dumb financial decisions.
But, it's okay: we'll see how it plays out.
andsoitis•5mo ago
- The state has a large role in orchestrating the economy to increase national wealth and strength.
- Trade balances are an important determinant of national wealth and strength, and trade deficits should be avoided.
- Industrial policy is used to promote self-reliance and defense.
- National corporate champions are protected."
notahacker•5mo ago
Trump strongly believes the second point but is [even] less convinced of the importance of the other three points than previous US administrations (they're actively sabotaging a lot of the state organs that could orchestrate the production of US national wealth, and seem to regard national corporate champions as entities to demand protection money from more than entities to actually protect)
China does believe in the role of the state and industrial policy and corporate champions but I don't think they actually believe the trade balance is a measure of strength, and they've been pursuing broadly similar policies for decades. The EU might be slightly more interested in linking defence to industrial policy than it used to be and a lot less trusting of the US as a trade partner, but its state aid sits under the same Single Market restrictions it always has and it certainly isn't making the mistake of trying to maximise its trade surpluses. And most of the rest of the world is trying to industrialise via Chinese imports and wondering why the US is being weird.