Maybe you misread, the post says this: "With its current dominance, Qubic can rewrite the blockchain, enable double-spending, and censor any transaction."
All of which are possible if someone has that level of control, and none of which involve signing with other people's keys.
(As some people seem confused about the impact of 51% attacks: Of course you can't double-spend in a single blockchain, as that is prevented. But the nature of these attacks is that there's no longer one true blockchain. You can create one fork of the blockchain where you send the money to someone, receive goods in return, and then afterwards switch to a longer fork of the blockchain where the money was never sent.)
This doesn't seem like as much of an actual risk. A better way to make money would be to create a perception that the value of the coin is at risk before buying it cheap.
Actually devaluing it doesn't seem worthwhile financially.
I have an idea for a much cheaper way to store and transfer money that also relies on the existence of a police.
Yesterday I was running a Monero node and looking at it, and got an unusually very high number of chain reorganization messages. I could believe a 51% attack happened.
1. a) The list doesn't need to be hardcoded, it could be a configuration. b) So trust doesn't need to be permanent. c) It could be decentralized in the sense of allowing different people to have configs 2. Miners not on the list can still participate just with lower weight in the case of a fork. And they still get full reward.
What will likely happen is a PoS BFT layer on top of PoW, although there are other options being considered:
If they fail to ever converge there is probably such a large disagreement in the community that a fork is for the best anyway.
What? No, it very much it isn't. Consensus needs to be ongoing, within a handful of blocks (Monero locks transfers for 10 blocks for this reason, called "confirmations").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-spending#Decentralized_...
Anyone have any context about who Qubic are, and what their deal is?
(quote starts here)
"""Writing this date here to memorize when the concept of Decentralized Artificial Intelligence (#DAI) got its final shape.
Not bullshit like "It runs on a #blockchain so it must be decentralized". In this concept each entity holds a secret know-how which modifies #IntelligentTissue (in cooperation with other know-hows owned by other entities, if needs to solve a complex task). Secrecy of each know-how ensures nobody can copy it, others can only attempt to create something similar by spending computational resources.
Each #AI is an original object, #IntelligentTissue is its hologram. #Qubic is the platform for AI creation, their convergence and intelligent tissue hosting"""
Trust me he did not like it
See e.g. https://x.com/kayabaNerve/status/1955173552363016434
* One actor in the space appears to have done a proof of concept takeover of 51%.
* It’s not clear there was any malicious action nor intent in doing so.
* Performing something like this is definitely expensive.
* The potential impact of doing so is disputed.
* Whether or not it was achieved is also disputed
However, what has been known you some time is that the largest BitCoin miners have more power than the entire community of many alt-coins. Whether this is an issue is a matter for debate. Certainly, until now, no-one has chosen to flex like this.
The two networks have wildly different proof-of-work algorithms, they're incompatible. A BTC ASIC will never mine Monero, ever.
Last time I saw that was on photonics processor blockchains
In fact, Litecoin has an optional privacy feature called MWEB, which is probably why Litecoin too got kicked off of being named on some conventional news sites.
BTC will have to move to a proof of stake design to survive. It's unavoidable.
The ASIC manufacturer would also need a backdoor. ASIC manufacturers don't control mining.
Large miners are unlikely to allow backdoors into their mining network.
It's doomed in general, see the cash fork.
Like, trivially, it's an ASIC, so I can use it to simulate a von Neumann[*] machine, hence I can use it to run whatever algorithm I want. Would that be more efficient than using a modern OoO superscalar? Almost surely not, but that doesn't mean it can't be done, just that it shouldn't be done that way.
*: I realize that the ASICs used in Bitcoin miners don't have dram access, but that isn't a general limitation of ASICs, just those ASIC 'chips' (and maybe not even those chips, just their implementations in bitcoin miners)
EDIT: Thanks to everyone who answered! For some reason, I had it in my head that the way we implement fixed function stuff in an ASIC was basically the same as a "burn once" FPGA. Brains gonna brain.
No, that doesn't follow at all. An ASIC doesn't mean a general purpose CPU or FPGA. A chip that only knows how to do, say, video decoding is an example of ASIC. The video chip can't do bitcoin, the bitcoin chip can't do monero. They're not general purpose.
asic does not mean turing complete
good luck simulating a von neumann machine on a sha256 accelerator
At block N someone could start to privately mine (empty) blocks.
They keep mining in private until block N+x is public, at which time the private (51%) chain is length N+x+1.
They then announce their longer chain.
By the protocol, this longer chain (technically "most work" chain) is the more trusted one, and undoes any transactions in N+1 through N+x.
A more sophisticated attack would include all the legitimate transactions on the network except for their own transaction(s) which they're trying to double spend. That way the network isn't disrupted apart from the parties you're double spending against.
You can't do that with 25% (or even 40%) hashrate.
But your chain has every block solved by you, giving you all the block rewards.
That's the magic of the 51% attack. You gain control of the blocks. Because that extra 1% isn't a HUGE margin, it may take a while for your chain to become the winning chain, but theoretically, it will happen.
- The attacker can doublespend their transactions if their hashing power is high enough to create more blocks than what the recipient is waiting for. E.g. you buy a lambo, the shop waits 10 blocks after the tx is in a block and gives you the lambo, then you create a longer chain with 11 blocks to replace the other one, and don't include the original lambo tx. 51% of hashing power is enough to create new blocks, but not enough to create 11 alternative blocks. That requires more hashing power.
- The attacker can prevent other transactions from landing in a block, as long as they have majority
- But the attacker can't create fake transactions (e.g. if they only have 1k Monero, they can't create a tx with 2k Monero). Because all nodes (not only miners) still verify the transactions
- And the attacker can also not steal your money, because they don't have your private keys
That is false. A 51% attack is only expensive to the degree to which the hashpower required to exceed 50% is obtained at negative margins.
If an attacker can collect the total 51% or more hashpower at what would be a profitable rate despite the attack, then the attack is not "definitely expensive" - no, the attack is definitely profitable and the expense falls sorely on the minority.
Or, you need to spend a lot of resources to do the attack even if it's the case that you get that money back when you succeed. And the attack is not available to you if you can't front those resources (because it's expensive rather than cheap).
There is a word for this. We call it risk.
Monero uses RandomX, which is intentionally chosen to make it difficult to accelerate using hardware that is common with other coins. It’s almost certainly not what happened here.
Looking at that website I see that the unknown pool keeps getting a longer chain and it switches to it
specially given its only backing is "trust" (trust that you won't get invaded or overthrown)
anonymous alt coins, real digital cash, are competition to the monetary system. there can be only one.
Monero transactions are inherently obfuscated, which solves this problem. If you want more details, the Monero whitepaper is well written to be accessible for the common reader.
The tldr is it works atop ring signatures: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_signature
It solves the problem by making all participants culpable. The blockchain community is very good at imagining they have technical solutions to social problems.
But that's really beside the point, because it isn't me who will come after you, it's the IRS (or equivalent). If you spend a lot of money, you're in trouble if you can't explain how you got it. And if you explain that you participated in a network which has as its only purpose to destroy evidence of how you got it, you're usually in extra big trouble.
Appears to be legit, but not really a nefarious attack.
"Planned test". Planned by whom? Planned by the attackers. The reorg did happen.
"not really a nefarious attack" is an insane summation of this article. There's zero way for someone outside of qubic to verify that they didn't do something nefarious while controlling the network. Stated another way- anyone could call their 51% attack a "stress test"
https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero
This Qubic group claims to concentrate 3 GH/s of hashing power, yet there has been no increase in the global hash rate either:
https://www.coinwarz.com/mining/monero/hashrate-chart
Could this be just a bait?
I'm just saying that this might be a state sponsored actor fighting another one, given that Mirai was primarily hosting XMR miners, and given that they lost 3.5 Mio bots overnight in 2023.
This is how proof of work systems operate.
They are very expensive to attack but very cheap to recover from.
$75m per day is clearly unstainable.
Soon they will give up and the network will recover cheaply.
The attack is more of a nuisance than the end of Monero.
Is this a typo or am I misunderstanding something?
"unsustainable"
Also true!
It does mean an adversary with a high amount of hash got lucky. I noted there's a discrepancy between their claimed network hashrate and pools' claimed network hash rate.
They may not be including their own hash rate in the network's, in which case they'd need to exceed it. Having 51% would only be 34% of total.
They're an unreliable narrator and I wouldn't trust any data from them. There's insufficient evidence to claim they have 51% of the network's hash power.
However they do have a large enough hashrate to perform multi-block re-orgs with their selfish mining strategy.
They disabled API hashrate reporting so that they could lie about it.
Keep mining and ignore the noise.
Qubic was able to orchestrate its network of miners to temporarily halt their AI-related tasks and redirect their collective CPU power to mine on the Monero network instead.
Also, Qubic has implemented an economic strategy that involves selling the Monero it mines for a stablecoin like USDT and then using those funds to benefit its own ecosystem and attract more miners, and renting hardware to gain more hash power. The proceeds from the sale of XMR are used to buy Qubic's native token (QUBIC) from exchanges. These purchased tokens are then "burned" or permanently removed from circulation.
However,
> Qubic's AI-training work is performed by CPUs, same as used by RandomX (Monero's mining algo).
I don't understand how this makes any sense at all.
The attack is no different than paying miners to join a malicious pool. It works as long as money flows in.
It's not a terrible idea, but I've yet to see it be inplemented. Gridcoin is one typical example where it's just PoS with "useful PoW" tacked on for token distribution, and doesn't actually use PoW for security.
*gestures wildly*
I bring this up because people are always asking what platforms are allowing me to short cryptocurrencies, which seems to miss that it's enough to just have a debt denominated in what you want to bet against.
At some point, someone doing AI might amass enough GPUs to do a 51% attack on Bitcoin. You're right that it destroys confidence in the coin, so if you short Bitcoin futures before the attack, you might make money.
This is electrically impossible for Bitcoin specifically, modern ASICs exceed 3 orders of magnitude more hashes/Joule and hashrate/chip than a RTX5090 and cost $2-40 retail per chip.
With BTC's block reward continually being reduced, TX fees will have to increase in order to avoid reaching the point where large miners could become tempted to attack the network.
With PoS protocols, >33% is usually when you have the ability to inhibit finality, which may be what you're thinking of.
I am thinking of, for example, a nation-state. Let's say the US, EU, or China decided for some reason that it was in their national interest to blow up Bitcoin. This could happen if an adversary like Russia or its allies were using Bitcoin for funding and there was a war or a major Cold War style struggle. Such players could afford to purchase and build, in secret, a huge mining farm, and then suddenly turn it on, not caring about the cost because the goals are strategic. It would be massively expensive but it doesn't matter for this case.
Irrelevant and impossible to "know", given that it hasn't happened yet (if it ever does)
It's only a secure system if adversaries are either small or economically rational.
The money is one thing, you also have to somehow acquire a huge % of the ASIC supply over years, and the not insignificant amount of energy to run them
Does the coin stay alive purely because people still speculate on hype or does everyone try to cash out simultaneously and send price into a death spiral?
Alifatisk•11h ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack
Btw, here's the alternative link https://xcancel.com/p3b7_/status/1955173413992984988
vlabakje90•11h ago
So I'd say they're not exactly the same.
ceejayoz•11h ago
delfinom•10h ago
ceejayoz•9h ago
That it's dramatically easier to conceal your identity doesn't mean concealing your identity isn't useful.
treyd•11h ago
the8472•9h ago