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Hacker and physicist – a tale of "common sense"

https://www.supasaf.com/blog/general/hacker_physicist
25•supasaf•1d ago

Comments

ninetyninenine•8h ago
The relationship between physics, functional programming and security feels forced.

Like I can see functional programming and physics but security just feels arbitrary.

zem•6h ago
the underlying connection the author is making between physics and security is knowing the low level laws governing the systems you are dealing with, or at least being aware of them. if anything the functional programming bit could have been left out.
ninetyninenine•3h ago
The low level laws "governing" security are just procedural rules made up by humans. There could be a thousand ways to "secure" something but the author is just following convention here.

The axioms of functional programming and physics are not arbitrary conventions. They are fundamental to reality.

zem•3h ago
but that's not the analogy the article was making at all! it was making an analogy with using technology based on underlying physical principles, where you could either be cognizant or ignorant of those principles, and similarly you could use something like https while either knowing or not knowing what the lower level pieces it relied on were.
ninetyninenine•2h ago
Yeah and I'm saying it's a bad analogy. Because the principles of security are made up. They aren't fundamental. They are arbitrary and they exist by convention.

Usually concepts that are arbitrary I wouldn't call "principles" because they aren't principles. Just convenient rules to follow. A principle is much deeper.

dtj1123•2h ago
At its foundation modern security is based on ideas from information theory and cryptography that were discovered, not invented. Arguably just as fundamental as the postulates of general relativity or quantum mechanics.
3oil3•7h ago
very good philosphy, near the end author says "Think of yourself as a physics teacher, not a physics textbook." Very good. As for appearing surprised that many people do not care, so it is.

Everyone has a relative that after 30 years still doesn't know how to use the airco controls?

I read somewhere it all follows some sort of gaussian/normal distribution, like in 11 peole there might be 1 knowledgeable, 2 interested, 5 pretending to listen, 2 bored, 1 sneaking out. Sometimes it's you or me who sneaks out.

perching_aix•6h ago
I shall join the ranks of the idiots then, cause the question "Are the certificates on these IoT devices centrally managed?" makes no sense to me either, just not because I wouldn't know what certificates are.

Centrally managed? Like are these devices enrolled into some centralized management system, and so is the question whether that system also manages the OS root cert store? (And would have been followed up with whether it blocks TLS traffic that it's unable to intercept?) Or is it maybe whether the vendor's applications deployed to these devices use that or carry their own?

But then I read on, and PKI and HTTPS comes up. Is centrally managed then referring to PKI being a centralized trust system, and so is the question really "are you using CA issued domain certs"? Why the contrived phrasing then?

And then there's a mention of an internal domain name. Internal as in private? Sounds a bit suspect that the guys who don't know what a certificate is would have a private DNS with a private CA to boot, but it sure would be centralized alright.

I think it's inquisitive that the first common point reached was HTTPS: yes/no? -> yes. But then even that was seemingly a bit too new info: in the portrayed discussion it is first also asked whether HTTP is in picture. This makes me question, just what did the author even know about these devices when they prompted their centrally managed certificates question.

Maybe a better question at that stage would have been, "So, how do these devices communicate, and what to?", letting them explain it in their own terms first?

shreyas056•4h ago
The difference here is that you know enough to ask the follow-up questions
db48x•1h ago
In a normal OS under normal conditions, the certificate store is centrally managed by the OS vendor. The answer then is “yes”.

But it's possible to install a certificate of your own in which case the answer is probably “no” because when it expires you're going to have to to every one of those machines and install the replacement.

Or imagine an embedded computer that doesn't even have an OS. Then the certificate store just has whatever the developer put into it when they built the image. Again the answer is “no”. If you're lucky you can still rebuild the image and reflash the devices even though the engineer who did the work was fired as a cost–cutting measure. If you're not lucky then that VP’s cost–cutting has actually added a lot of cost.

wainguo•5h ago
Great read! The analogy between physics and infosec is spot-on—both rely on understanding fundamental principles that are often overlooked. The "AES256-over-HTTP" anecdote is both hilarious and terrifying, highlighting how abstraction can hide critical gaps. As a dev, I see similar issues when devs prioritize speed over security basics. Curious—what’s your go-to approach for teaching devs about PKI or mTLS without overwhelming them?
shreyas056•4h ago
>Now, I'm not blaming developers. Modern software engineering is built on abstraction layers, and that's actually amazing! We've gone from assembly language to high-level frameworks, from bare metal to cloud-native platforms. A developer can slap a @RestController annotation on a Java class and magically have an HTTPS endpoint without knowing anything about TLS handshakes or certificate chains.

Well, you should blame the developer if they don't know the basics of computer science (TLS handshake being the basics)

delusional•2h ago
I agree that programmers should know it, but I don't think Diffie-Hellman key exchange is core computer science.
SOLAR_FIELDS•1h ago
It’s definitely possible to properly implement TLS without fully understanding the exact mechanics
willtemperley•3h ago
Unfortunately a lot of documentation and tooling for TLS apis are horrible.

For example when working with Apple's Network.Framework, I have to drop to C and use functions like "sec_protocol_options_add_tls_application_protocol". Maybe the new beta framework is better.

Or if I want to get a certificate hash on the command line in a usable format, I'd have to run "openssl x509 -in server.crt -noout -fingerprint -sha256 | sed 's/://g' | cut -d= -f2"

Networking and security is still a dark art and it shouldn't be.

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