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Ghost kitchens are dying

https://davidrmann3.substack.com/p/ghost-kitchens-are-dying-heres-the
58•mooreds•6h ago

Comments

JohnFen•6h ago
The emergence of ghost kitchens, more than anything else, is what got me to stop using food delivery services. They made it impossible for me to have enough trust, so I switched back to ordering from real restaurants that I physically go to.
JumpCrisscross•2h ago
> made it impossible for me to have enough trust

Copy the address into your maps app and look it up on street view.

kjkjadksj•1h ago
Could be a few years stale. Some of the ghost kitchens even operated out of real restaurants by another name. E.g. higher quality sitdown place shoveling out burgers and fries out the back door.
MangoToupe•30m ago
What happens if you change to "pickup"? Does the place just disappear?
BeetleB•6h ago
For traditional restaurants, what percentage of orders are for delivery (using Doordash, etc)? Excluding pickups where the customer comes and picks it up himself.

I can't imagine it's even close to 50%.

I don't know the patterns of regular folks, but for me the prices in general have crept up enough that's it rare I want to try some new place - unless I get multiple strong personal recommendations for it. You can forget about paying extra for delivery to home!

HankStallone•5h ago
When I worked for Dominos in the late 80s, it was a lot like this sounds. No dining room, though customers could walk in and order in a small vestibule. The place was as efficient as possible, just ringing phones, an assembly line, cooler and ovens, storage and cleaners in the back, and delivery drivers running in and out.

There seems to be something special about pizza that sets it apart from everything else, that made it seem reasonable to order it delivered from a non-restaurant even back then.

jerlam•3h ago
It worked because Dominos was a brand name, people knew what to expect before ordering, and they picked up their own food instead of letting a overworked disinterested gig driver deliver it.
narcraft•3h ago
Dominos delivered. Pizza has been delivered since the dawn of time.
FearNotDaniel•3h ago
Plenty of Chinese takeaways, and a good few “Indian” establishments (takeaway/delivery only, no restaurant) have operated in the same way, without chains or brand names, for decades, at least all over the UK. Many great quality, many poor, but that was part of the fun of moving to a new area, figuring out the good ones from all the menus that got shoved through the letterbox.

Before that, of course, the fish and chip shop is an ancient institution, though they rarely delivered.

recursivecaveat•2h ago
I think pizza is just virtually indestructible in terms of traveling. Sometimes I see americanized chinese food or those caribbean rotis being sold out of no-seating places likewise. The thing about a non-ghost no-seating establishment is you know they would go out of business eventually if they were truly awful. The ghost kitchens though can spin up new virtual brands endlessly.
kjkjadksj•1h ago
I remember in the early 2000s there was a big push to deshittify delivery pizza. Companies were all advertising how they were now sending out their pizza in insulated bags. Dominos went particularly heavy, advertising a purpose built delivery vehicle with a built in warming oven (not sure if this was ever real or just for advertising) and a big emphasis on how they reformulated the entire menu to taste better.
Mountain_Skies•30m ago
The vehicle was real. There is (or was) a series on YouTube about someone who bought one that had been salvaged and wanted to repair it for his own use but ended up getting various legal threats from Domino's, claiming he obtained the vehicle illegally or planned to misuse their branding.
etblg•5h ago
The points the article make come close to my gripe with ghost kitchens but don't quite cover it:

they feel like scams and when I've accidentally ordered from a ghost kitchen it was by design a terrible experience.

I'm talking like, you order a 15$ main that is called "creamy pasta with prosicutto" and when it shows up its buttered spaghetti with a couple stamp-sized bits of ham. Ordering from actual restaurants come with some of the downsides the article assigns to ghost kitchens, like cold food and weird presentation, but ghost kitchens never seemed to reach the bar of "food someone would actually order, even if it was teleported to them instantly".

toss1•2h ago
THIS:

>>"food someone would actually order, even if it was teleported to them instantly".

The article states >>Quality control became impossible. Shared kitchen facilities meant that one staff member prepared food for multiple brands simultaneously. No ownership. No accountability. Just assembly-line cooking with zero connection to customers.

I'm not sure if it was impossible or if management never actually prioritized it, not bothering to understand what an actual customer would want. How much of it is the stupid management assumption that they can "just make a dish generally meeting description X on the menu" and deliver that and it'll be ok? «— Real question, did mgt fail at the product specification level, or was QC just as a practical matter, impossible?

On the economics, it really seems 30% for delivery is insane. It seems that same 30% might exceed the cost of the physical restaurant. And when it adds a 15-45min delay while homogenizing and cooling the meal, it seems an impossible problem. Maybe if the 30% transported it instantly and losslessly...

Probably good this soulless idea will die. Too bad so much perfectly good capital was squandered on it instead of better ideas

jeffbee•1h ago
> Just assembly-line cooking with zero connection to customers.

And this is how it works in many (not all) American airports. Local restaurants put their brands on the signs, but the food is prepared by probationary employees of Acme Baggage Displacement And Cafeteria Management Corp.

astrange•46m ago
I don't feel like I've ever been let down by an airport restaurant or Starbucks (not that I think about it much).

But the airport newsstands that are just someone selling candy in a room with the name of a random local newspaper are an interesting local sight.

Gigachad•43m ago
I mean they basically are drive by scams. They just flood the market with a million listings for the same kitchen, use some stock photos (AI generated now). And if you get bad reviews or food poisoning complaints you delete the business and list up 5 more.
syntaxing•2h ago
The main issue was that they relied on food delivery to sustain its model. I’m not going to pay $50 in food and $20 in tips and fees. Like anyone sane, I call in my order and pick it up myself. This idea died because of this missing link. I would entertain it if you have a pickup booth in a lobby.
leetrout•1h ago
And you just re-invented Chinese takeout as experienced in major cities!

One of my favorite dumpling shops in Brooklyn just had 2 tables... everyone just carried it out and back to home / work. And I think it worked well for them.

tptacek•2h ago
I believe all of this but:

Food that travels well requires different recipes, different ingredients, different packaging.

This doesn't ring true, given the popularity of DoorDash and the fact that most of those restaurant menus are in no way optimized for delivery.

Having lower-quality multitasking staff serving multiple restaurants from the same prep and equipment seems like an obvious way to lose quality. But simply streamlining the process of getting a menu onto delivery? That seems like a solved problem.

pavel_lishin•2h ago
> the fact that most of those restaurant menus are in no way optimized for delivery.

Are you sure they're not?

tptacek•34m ago
Yes, I am sure about this claim that I am making. Are there restaurants that do optimize for delivery? Certainly. But DoorDash covers most restaurants in my area (and it's a big area --- Chicagoland) and most of those menus are identical to the in-person menu.
kevinmchugh•1h ago
I saw this the other day: https://www.reddit.com/r/chicagofood/comments/1na3fer/commen...

So some places are optimizing their fries for delivery.

I've also noticed some restaurants are better at adapting the packaging, like punching out ventilation so fried products don't steam themselves in transit. Lawrence Seafood (which rules) did that for a side of tempura we got this weekend.

But I agree in large part. I wouldn't order fried chicken delivered via door dash in any event. People doing that are optimizing for something other than quality.

tptacek•35m ago
The increasing prevalence of battered fries as a consequence of DoorDash is such a cursed thing.
kjkjadksj•1h ago
The elephant in the room is people who rely on doordash are not passionate cooks or very discerning customers.
serf•1h ago
Every greasy spoon I frequent now has all sorts of packaging/to-go options, they're self-branding the cups and boxes, they have separate queues for pick-up/delivery orders, they have cubbies for quick pick-up, whatever -- they're all seemingly optimizing for pick-up/online stuff.
mbreese•1h ago
Ten years ago (I moved since), there was a ghost kitchen in the Bay Area that was great. I wish I could remember the name. But it produced meals that were extremely well packaged, but designed to be reheated at home (it took like 15 min max). It was great because the meals could be pre-ordered and delivered by the time you got home. You could tell the recipes were all tweaked to fit the specifics of delivery and reheating.

This was an example of a well functioning ghost kitchen. I don’t know how profitable they were, but it was very convenient. There are a lot of downsides to this approach, like pre ordering, reheating, and limited menu, but it was a very different approach to current ghost kitchens around me now or DoorDash from a local restaurant.

astrange•45m ago
I think Lazy Dog does that and calls them TV dinners.
alexjplant•1h ago
> This doesn't ring true, given the popularity of DoorDash and the fact that most of those restaurant menus are in no way optimized for delivery.

People have really funny ideas about restaurants. Somebody once left an online review of my family's establishment complaining about the fact that the hot chicken that was supposed to be on their cold to-go salad was in a separate container. They asserted that it was a "trick" to keep the chicken warm and moist, as though it would have been better to let the hot poultry heat their salad in the same container until it was lukewarm meat on top of wilted greens. Every day I wake up and mourn the IQ point that I lost reading it.

MangoToupe•31m ago
> This doesn't ring true, given the popularity of DoorDash and the fact that most of those restaurant menus are in no way optimized for delivery.

People are dumb.... but only for so long. I've been burnt so many times by delivery I've gone back to mostly ordering pizza and picking it up in person.

timhigins•1h ago
It would be really nice to have a tag on HN to filter out LLM-generated, or at least partly AI-generated content like this.

If an article makes it to the front page despite being AI-generated it probably has some interesting points or ideas, but it's unfortunate that people seeem to choose the speed and style of LLM writing over the individual style and choice that made the writing of yesteryear more interesting and unique.

cj•1h ago
It would be nice if you shared some supporting evidence rather than turning a guess into a definitive statement.
npinsker•1h ago
It's clearly AI, both from the image (look at the text) and the vacuous nothingness of the ChatGPT-speak.
cj•1h ago
If you believe that, it’s best to flag the submission and move on rather than pollute the comments. This is the equivalent of posting “this is a badly written article”. It doesn’t add any value.
Brendinooo•35m ago
> No dining room. No servers. No storefront. No customers walking through the door. Just a kitchen.

> No ownership. No accountability. Just assembly-line cooking with zero connection to customers.

> No loyal regulars. No servers to smooth over problems. Just angry reviews that destroyed virtual brands forever.

Pretty common pattern these days.

That, plus the hashtags at the end (unless Substack uses those and I was unaware of it), plus the fact that we know he's using AI in some capacity because of the feature images - it's a reasonable conclusion to draw.

kragen•2m ago
I was thinking about commenting the same thing. It had an awful lot of paragraphs that ended in a list of three sentence fragments, usually noun phrases. Now I wonder whether any of it is even true.
userbinator•1h ago
They grew during the pandemic, for obvious reasons. Now that that's over, it's no surprise that they're dying off.
xg15•1h ago
> The company then announced it would sell or close every remaining physical location and pivot to "software only".

What does that even mean? Sell an NFT image of a burger?

eddythompson80•34m ago
CloudKitchen was holding plenty of software hiring events near me few years ago. All these companies developed software to streamline the process of listing thousands of stores on all delivery apps, receiving orders, organize and manage kitchens assembly lines like how the orders are received, and dispatched to cooks, etc. Also they integrate analytics, cost tracking, supply chain management, and other random things like that. Basically for any PE or a billionaire who wants to larp as the next McDonalds or Starbucks, they don’t want to build everything from scratch.

The kinda thing a regular restaurant is probably managing using a spreadsheet and a notebook.

ggm•47m ago
Asimov was fond of the trope that the future was starved of protein, and even america had become a land where people had to eat communally, and eat significant amounts of manufactured "zymoveal" protein, because real meat was scarce under population/land pressure. It was clear that "people didn't like it"

Oddly, "cafeteria" cooking has sometimes been the best food I've eaten at the time. It very much depends on the circumstances and budget and your expectations. I've eaten like this in Leeds, London, Rome, France, Beijing. And not always in universities, the experience extends to factories, railways and even just the streetscape.

The FSU had a preference for ground meat and sausages at a state level because it was easier to ensure as much as possible of the meat inputs became food outputs. The Khrushchev flats had communal kitchens. They were universally hated I believe.

Ghost kitchens failed on lack of regulation and motivation to be the best they could be. There was never an intention to be "Jamie Oliver's ghost kitchen"

Re-intermediating consumers away from direct food carries on. Uber eats and Panda are delivering food from restaurants all around me, and one of them is a chinese take-away eponymously called "A Chinese Take Away" -I think it's a hack on the search engine carried forward. I've eaten their floating market soup in the shop, it's fine. Most of their trade is carry-out.

Animats•19m ago
> Quality control became impossible. Shared kitchen facilities meant that one staff member prepared food for multiple brands simultaneously. No ownership. No accountability. Just assembly-line cooking with zero connection to customers. When food arrived cold or wrong, customers had no relationship with the brand to forgive mistakes. No loyal regulars. No servers to smooth over problems. Just angry reviews that destroyed virtual brands forever. No reason for repeat business.

That's a straight quality control problem. It ought to be solveable.

But that's hard to do.

The trouble is, the whole food app industry is based on someone else dealing with the hard problems. The drivers aren't employees, and the restaurants aren't employees. If an app company gets into ghost kitchens, they are now in a business where they are clueless. Some try to avoid being responsible for the food by just being landlords for people who buy a station in the kitchen

Bulk food prep is a solved problem. Every major hotel has it solved. There will be some senior people who went to a serious culinary academy. They look at food prep as a manufacturing problem, with batch quantity optimization, holding time limits, error tolerances on temperatures and quantities, and quality control points. It's factory planning.

The first "Doordash Kitchen", in Silicon Valley, is near me. It's still operating, but I don't see many drivers there.

> When food travels twenty minutes in a bag, quality suffers.

You'd think that would be a solved problem in packaging and prep by now. Insulated containers are not rocket science.

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