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Review: Project Xanadu – The Internet That Might Have Been

https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-review-project-xanadu-the-internet
37•paulpauper•3h ago

Comments

AfterHIA•2h ago
Massive Nelson fan here. My question right now is knowing that Ted's moved from, "the alt Internet" to a, "really bitchin' writing tool" what's the current state of development? What's Christina Engelbart up to?

If the right people just starting designing software again we could accomplish so much. SV is essentially dead in terms of meaningful innovation. All it would take is developing a better operating system, a better web browser, a better personal computer. The competition has lowered the bar so low. Certainly something could be done. #as #we #may #continue #to #think

mystraline•2h ago
Ive seen this abomination batted around every so often as 'the internet that could have been'. Glad it wasn't.

Some of my own critiques.

1. Nelson wanted to institute optional micropayments, like 1 cent or fractions of cents to pay to access content. This would mean that nearly everything would have a paywall.

2. With automated paywalls (to charge and to pay), would lead to scammed content like a infinite scrolling page at 1 cent a page, to not get immediately blocked.

3. The idea was that you could also charge for your content. What would happen is your stuff would get scraped, added to aggregators, and charged more while you get nothing.

4. You pay for seemingly legit content and pay for scams. No way to charge back.

5. With all this micropayments and stuff, would necessitate DRM on all 'pay' content. It would be the only way to stop downloading/archiving/reuploading with micropayments that go to me. I view DRM on everything as a computing hellscape.

6. Nelson's extreme secrecy was what caused his system to never get any traction. Those Mosaic and A-Pachy folks were like 'set up a fresbsd box and make a free website.' None of this goofy money crap.

HexDecOctBin•2h ago
> This would mean that nearly everything would have a paywall.

Now everything has ads and is SEOed to hell. And everyone used Ad Blockers, so the authors still get nothing.

mystraline•2h ago
Ive seen freemium services now, that used to be 'free but ad infested', and 'pay but no ads' - go to 'pay but you still get ads'.

I have no reason to think otherwise if Xanadu did the micropayments scam AND ads. And I would expect some online script would necessitate downloading and paying for ads to decrypt the content to enforce paying to get advertised at.

cleartext412•1h ago
The scraping and reuploading issue could be solved by some kind of universal global content identification system, integrated into the micropayments system, making sure no matter where certain piece of content is uploaded, the fee would still go to the copyright owner, perhaps with some small percent given to the hosting website. Not saying it would certainly work, but there is a few technologies probably everyone here have heard about that seems like a very good fit for the task.
irusensei•1h ago
> 1. Nelson wanted to institute optional micropayments, like 1 cent or fractions of cents to pay to access content. This would mean that nearly everything would have a paywall.

Of course there are obvious problems in his ideas but I think micropayments could have been a better monetization option than the ad and data collection model.

nothrabannosir•1h ago
> 1. Nelson wanted to institute optional micropayments, like 1 cent or fractions of cents to pay to access content. This would mean that nearly everything would have a paywall.

Mission accomplished? In real life everything has a paywall. I much prefer a supermarket to the modern internet. I know what I'm getting, I know what I'm paying for it, I can pay cash, and when I walk out it's over. I can see the cost upfront, I can compare different suppliers, I can buy in bulk: I know what I'm getting and what I'm paying.

I hate the "$0" internet.

mystraline•35m ago
I think you're not seeing the end result of "everything has micro transactions", and how you can't see the content UNTIL you pay.

In a grocery, you can see the goods or the box. Nutrition labels have various details. You see the price. You can pay or not.

With internet of micro transactions, everything would be gamified to eek out as much money for as little content. You'd have content gatekept behind a paywall, with ads you had to download and watch for a password to unlock. Infinite scroller websites are also infinite money generators. Things in the background would attempt to steal from you by silently paying/downloading content underneath they pay threshold.

Every thing would have their hand out demanding money.

And with this, in order to enforce, you'd have onerous DRM baked in everywhere. Lest scrapers aggregate and create multiple pricepoint sites to target micro transaction levels.

And, in this world, only the rich can access everything.

This view of an alternate internet is a hellscape. At least we can block adverts and disable JavaScript.

throwaway81523•9m ago
I think Ted had a more optimistic vision than that. More like, go to the library and read whatever you want, but with a meter running so you got charged a microscopic amount per word read. It might come to a couple of bucks equivalent if you spent the whole day reading. At one point (I don't know if he departed from this), you couldn't set your own prices. All paid reading was charged at the same amount per byte. You could freely quote anyone else, like transclude a page of their text into yours. The system tracked the transclusions so the other person would get paid for the part that you quoted, and you'd get paid for your own parts. They basically handwaved the question of unauthorized copying (as opposed to their tracked transclusions), at least for a while, by saying that it wasn't allowed but not explaining how enforcement would work.

I knew the Xanadu tech folks pretty well and hung out with them a fair amount. They were capital-L libertarians with the usual belief that they could squash the real world into their ideological framework. I only met Ted himself a couple of times. I think he was less naive, but I don't know how that fit in.

I remember RMS meeting them and getting a big talk about all the stuff they'd implemented over N years. Afterwards he said he could write the same thing in a few weeks. He wasn't interested in the paid-everything vision though.

nabla9•2h ago
Ted Nelson had really good ideas, but he stood in his own way.

He wanted to build a closed-source system that he owned and controlled. He was a bad project leader and got nowhere. His patents prevented others from using zigzag structures. Decades later, when some people wanted to build an open-source GZigZag, he first said it was okay to use the name, then turned sour on it and prevented them from using it.

If someone wants to do it again, they shouldn't involve Ted Nelson in any way our use anything he has control over, whether a trademark or a patent.

The Curse of Xanadu https://www.wired.com/1995/06/xanadu/

irusensei•1h ago
Slightly off topic but I'd like to point the distinction between the contents of that article with the latest stuff on the page side. It's not bad just the same thing you see in every news site.

Wired surely went full corpo didn't they?

mentalgear•1h ago
> unlike Ted Nelson, Tim Berners-Lee never read about Bush’s memex. He built a system that connected people like never before—but made little effort to facilitate the connection of ideas. There are no trails on the World Wide Web—instead, there are misattributed quotes, dead one-way links, constant plagiarism scandals, and widespread misinformation and mutual distrust. It’s often said that we’re living in a ‘post-truth society’. The words we write and videos we share have become entirely unmoored from the ideas underlying them. Strangely, the Web has facilitated more disconnection than was ever possible before.

> Ted Nelson, in his own oblique and dodgy way, predicted the failure mode we’re now seeing: “This is not a technical issue, but rather moral, aesthetic and conceptual.” We built our global information-sharing system quickly, efficiently, and technically, when we should’ve treated it as a philosophical and aesthetic puzzle as much as a computational one, and built carefully and precisely.

Agreed: nothing is more important than the foundation that you built, especially if it may make or break society.

irusensei•1h ago
I first heard about project Xanadu on Serial Experiments Lain.
Sniffnoy•1h ago
Gwern has some good comments on Project Xanadu and why it failed: https://gwern.net/xanadu

Mostly, he says, its biggest problem is that what it was trying to do (beyond the sort of thing the web actually ended up doing) just isn't that useful.

clueless•1h ago
This all seems to be the precursor to the recently viral Matthew McConaughey video saying he wants a private LLM, and to think, first of all, we still don't have a great/mainstream tool/product for this, and second of all, it's more than 80 years in the making, is mind boggling...
Animats•59m ago
I knew that crowd during the era of Autodesk ownership.

It was a disaster. There were fundamental problems:

- Nelson had very specific ideas for a database architecture, and they were awful. Links going every which way, all of which had to be consistent at all times. Imagine URLs all having backlinks to all uses of the link. That's Xanadu. You could make this work today, but database architecture of the era was far too primitive. With all that linking, just rendering a page would take a lot of joins.

- Everything is pay per view in Xanadu. What are you going to store? Early thinking was to store the expensive newsletters which investors buy for a few hundred dollars a month. The people involved were way too into microtransactions.

- It was inherently a centralized system, like Lexis/Nexis, or the National Library of Medicine. This would not have scaled, because of the need to keep the backlinks consistent.

- No images. Images didn't fit Nelson's model of text editing. How do you charge for operations on images?

Probably the closest living descendants to Xanadu are the collaborative editing systems where multiple people can work on the same thing at the same time. The text systems for that are well known. There's even a graphical shared editing system, NVidia Omniverse Connector. Nobody uses it. [1]

[1] https://blenderartists.org/t/so-is-anyone-actually-using-omn...

clueless•49m ago
this article has thrown me into a rabbit holeee.. what a fascinating history. thank you astralcodexten
codeulike•39m ago
Not this again, an overdesigned overcomplicated impractical mess. Something like Wikipedia would never be possible on a xanadu platform because it would be too complicated for anyone to contribute.

Xanadu is just not a realistic model for how collaborative text works in practice, the admin of tracing everything back to everything else would extinguish any useability

DennisP•15m ago
For a long time I played around with ideas for hypertext that would be fully decentralized, but implement much of what Xanadu was supposed to do (without micropayments, but with personalized filtering). Several years ago I wrote the core of a text editor that would maintain bidirectional links at the correct positions in editable documents. Partly I was thinking about decentralized social media, but mostly I was interested in collective intelligence, i.e. new and better ways for lots of people to coordinate to do intelligent things.

And then LLMs happened. It seems to me that LLMs, with RAG today or giant contexts later, do a lot of what I wanted. Instead of starting with documents from various collaborators, adding links between them, and stitching together new documents with transclusions, you can just chat with an LLM to get summaries, references, and so on. A lot of manual wrangling turns into a conversational collaboration with the machine (and through that, your human collaborators).

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https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-review-project-xanadu-the-internet
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