In addition, mixing Git and JJ will result in your repos becoming really slow when you do need to run some Git operation.
I like the idea of it, but there's so much inertia around typical git workflows that revolve around the GH pull request model (with the only difference being the use of trunk based dev or some git-flow like branching strategy) that it'd be hard to change without a lot of buy in.
I still think back to Phabricator and its approach to code review, noting that it sadly never got wider traction despite having notable benefits over a completely entrenched status quo.
I love this description and it describes how I work with git. When I’m doing things locally I’m constantly committing small wip commits. When I get something the way I like it I’ll interactive rebase/just back it all up, and then create the perfect little boxes. I guess I should try jujutsu since it sounds like it might be even more for me. Although if you can’t get to the perfect boxes at the end I don’t know if I’d like it.
The only part that piqued my interest is merges being always successful and conflicts just sitting in the tree, waiting patiently to be resolved... It's the next logical step after being able to commit without synchronizing when we all moved away from SVN.
jjui (https://github.com/idursun/jjui) makes it all that much easier too
It's cool that it exists, and it's impressive that it is built on top of git itself. If you (like the author) want to use it, then more power to you. But I have yet to be convinced by any of these articles that it is worth my time to try it since nearly all of them start from a point of "if you hate Git like me, then try this thing".
If anyone has a link to an article written from the point of view of "I love or at least tolerate git and have no real issues with it, here's why I like JJ," then I'd be glad to read it.
https://www.stavros.io/posts/switch-to-jujutsu-already-a-tut...
That having been said, I didn't hate Subversion either. It was fine.
I think you linked to the same post as OP, though?
I used bzr after SVN, but my larger point is that it's all fine, the question was whether you want to go through some short-term learning for long-term gain, or if you want to keep using what you know. Either is fine, I'm still using vim as my editor, for example.
Was it better than CVS in some way? Sure.
But git is just better in so many ways. Back in the day I used git exclusively with git-svn at a place that was still stuck with SVN and I had a blast, while everyone else didn't. I just never had any of the problems they did.
I'm not entirely sure what pain people speak of with git. I found the transition very natural. And don't come talking to me about the "weird command syntax". Some of that was specifically to be compatible / "intuitive" / what they were used to for people coming from tools like SVN.
Sure you gotta learn about "the index", understand that everything is local and that you have an origin and local copy of all the labels (also sometimes called branches or tags) you can attach to commits. That's about it for the normal and regular use that someone would've had with SVN.
It can't be that SVN is bad and git is better but also that git is fine even though jj is better.
You start out the article with hate for git without explaining what you actually don't like, then here on HN say "I don't hate git". A command called `fuckgit`? Because you need to re-clone? What are the things you commonly do that require this? I've never encountered it. Maybe you're just too advanced a user for git and jj really is better for you. But for us lowly regular users I really do not see an issue.
Some of the benefits you tout, like "editing a commit and you don't need to commit it yourself"? I'm sorry but I want to be the one in control here. I am the one that says "I'm done here, yes this is the new version of the commit I'm comfortable with". I've specifically forbid Claude to add, commit, push etc. for example.
It also breaks your "you need to stash" argument. I don't stash. I just commit if I have something WIP that needs saving while I work on some other emergency. There's no reason not to just commit. In fact I do that all the time to checkpoint work and I amend commits all the time. It's my standard commit command actually `git commit -a --amend`.
Automatic "oplog" of everything Claude did, IDE style: sure, maybe. Though I've yet to see that need arise in practice. Just because I have Claude et. al. now, I don't believe changes should be any bigger than they used to. Nor should my "commit early, commit often, push later" practice change.
I start out the article saying I never understood git, and why does it matter what I don't like? That would only matter if I were trying to say that git is bad, but I'm not making a comparison. I just think jj is better-designed, and that you should try it.
> Some of the benefits you tout, like "editing a commit and you don't need to commit it yourself"?
I never said that's a benefit, I just said that's something jj does differently. I `jj commit` when I'm done with some work anyway.
> It also breaks your "you need to stash" argument. I don't stash. I just commit if I have something WIP that needs saving while I work on some other emergency.
In that case, you'll like jj, as it handles all that for you.
Your comment is coming off as a bit defensive, I didn't write my article to attack git. If you like git, keep using it, I prefer jj and I think other people will too. It's hard to get started with because its workflow is different from what we're used to, so I wrote the tutorial to help.
Your comment is coming off as a bit defensive
I didn't write my article to attack git [...] I wrote the tutorial to help.
Blue speech bubble with literally the text: "If you don't like Jujutsu, you're wrong". This is text. There's no "tongue in cheek" voice and body language here, even if potentially you meant it that way. But given how the article itself starts, I don't think there was any of that to transport :shrug:
Needless to say, I just don’t get git
Idk man, the first two paragraphs of the article very much make it sound like you hate git.
> Over the past few years, I’ve been seeing people rave about Jujutsu, and I always wanted to try it, but it never seemed worth the trouble, even though I hate git.
> I don't hate git
but
> I have my trusty alias, fuckgit
Someone who doesn't hate git would have named this alias quite differently...
But hey, it's not my alias. I'm just saying that the way I read it didn't suggest hate, just a little cleverness. I can't speak for what the author was thinking.
There's nothing wrong with taking the time to learn how to use a bad UI, especially if there's no other option. But don't mistake your personal mastery of git for evidence that it's better than jj.
In all likelihood, the git proposal you allude to would not extend further than adding a bit of persistent metadata that follows commits after "destructive" changes. And even then, it'd be imperatively backing into the change-as-commit-graph data model rather than coming by it honestly.
> If you actually take time to learn your tools and how they're intended to be used, there's really not reason to learn jj IMO
This is like saying if people take the time to learn curl, there's really no reason to learn Firefox.
And it doesn't suggest to me that you're all that familiar with jj!
- automatic rebasing! goodbye to N+1 rebases forever
- first-class conflict resolution that doesn't force you to stop the world and fix
- the revset/template languages: incredibly expressive; nothing like it in git
- undo literally any jj action; restore the repo to any previous state. try that with the reflog...
No amount of learning git nets you any of these things.
Where jj shines is advanced workflows that aren’t practical with git. If you aren’t interested in those then it doesn’t give you as many benefits over git.
If you are breaking down your features into small PRs, stacking them, etc…, then jj is super helpful.
And when you rebase, the commits lose their identity since commit hashes are content-addressed, despite having an identity in people's minds - a new revision of a commit under review is usually logically the same unit of change, but git doesn't have a way of expressing this.
jj, as I understand it, addresses these pains directly.
I feel like I’m doing something wrong, as I haven’t seen this mentioned in any tutorials, but I don’t know what! :-/
Can you try it on a fresh clone and see if it still happens?
Really? Pointing out that a tool is difficult to use seems like an excellent argument to promote the use of a different (supposedly simpler) tool.
Specifically in the case of git, I'm glad it was not difficult for you, but it is undeniable that it is a very difficult tool for many people to learn.
> Needless to say, I just don’t get git.
What is there not to _get_, honestly? And why is jj so easier to get?
The author seems to focus on how great it is to make changes to your commit history locally, and that you shouldn't worry because it's not pushed yet.
The thing is, I don't want automatic. Automatic sucks. The point of version control is that I am able to curate my changes. The guards and rails of git is what makes me feel safe.
I am still failing to see why JJ is superior to git, or whatever.
There are some convention people follow when working with git to make it safe to use. But those aren't git's features -- they are ways to avoid confusion.
Your real mental model of git should be an acyclic directed graph where the nodes are commits and the edges are ancestry. Commits represents snapshot of the project's state. Tags and branches are just text pointers to commits in the graph.
If you use this mental model, suddenly things like git rebase or git reset become far less mysterious and arcane since they are just simple graph operations. Like `git reset --hard X` means "Make current branch's text pointer point to X"
git log --graph --oneline --decorate --all -100
What was holding me back turned out to be the fact that git has too much magic (it updates branches automatically when you commit, rebasing "does stuff", conflict resolution was just arcane).
Jj exposes all that into simple, composable principles, making everything click.
What am I supposed to do, use the UI plus jj, and prompt an LLM to use which: git, or jj, in case I am too lazy to think of the right command in the remaining one percent of cases?
But in general, I like the "less states and DVCS features than git" approach, but would not switch back to mercurial just to avoid the whole "should we rebase or create merge-commits" discussions in our teams due to having a single default that might not be optimal for everyone, but just works.
If it doesnt do anything you already need, then the maintainer is likely to add it quickly - its rare to find someone so responsive
Always the same starting point: "I don't understand how git works".
If you can't understand git, one of the most used tool in the whole industry, this is a *you* problem. You MUST take the time to understand how it works properly. Every job you'll get and every projects you'll work on will use a Version Control (at least I hope).
Abstracting this knowledge by using a tool that does things quite differently won't help you at all on the long run.
Git rebase is like programming with punch cards compared to jj’s rebase being like writing Python.
Moreover, you can use jj almost completely seamlessly with a git repo - including PRs etc to github. I do it daily and no one is the wiser.
Git is a bad teacher. There are a lot of things that are profound yet easy to grasp when learned and other things are called bad products. Git is one of them.
> If you don't like Jujutsu, you're wrong
It would be much more convincing if they had any idea of git that they were comparing it to.
I come to this conclusion because there's always a large amount of people saying "if you dont understand, let alone have mastered, git, then you dont get to have an opinion"
So, clearly these people similarly dont use ease-of-use abstractions like programming languages
palata•4h ago
On the other hand, I have issues with Jujutsu, one of which completely prevents me from using it in some projects:
* No support for git submodules. One can dislike submodules as much as they want, if I need to contribute to a repository using them, I can't use Jujutsu.
* The signing support is very annoying with a security key. Even if I configure 'sign-on-push', it will access the security key every time it tries to check the signature, which is pretty much every `jj st` or `jj log` after something has changed locally. I don't need to check my own signatures, IMO they should be checked on fetch and on push.
* There is no way to configure a 'defaultKeyCommand' like in git, which I now rely on (because I have multiple security keys).
stavros•2h ago
ahartmetz•39m ago