I do think there's a few hiccups still with Linux support. The shift up to 6.16 kernel has itself resolved many of the issues I'd been having in the past. If you're on an older LTS that hasn't moved, you're likely to see more issues than with a more current distro.
To be fair, anything old that wasn't famous has a decent chance to be broken under WINE too. It might just be a single call to some obscure animation API or something, but it can be enough to break the entire game.
Also, sometimes the original version doesn't work but the GOG version does, or even vice versa. I've seen all sorts of oddities.
This post gives me hope that I can ditch windows forever for all things soon! Games is the only reason I do windows for development these days.
All i want is rocket league :(
At least tf2 works
How did those issues get fixed? Did they abandon the anti cheat, or does the anti cheat now work under proton?
Do you only play offline or something?
Rocket League has literally never been unable to run on GNU/Linux. The full game. Multiplayer, Steam workshop, everything.
I suspect you may be thinking of a different game honestly. Maybe League of Legends? I think they switched to an invasive anti cheat a few years ago that caused it to no longer work on GNU/Linux.
BakkesMod also works, thanks to https://github.com/CrumblyLiquid/BakkesLinux
Rocket League has a platinum rating on ProtonDB: https://www.protondb.com/app/252950
https://support.apple.com/guide/security/direct-memory-acces...
Not so on Linux?
At least I know that Helldivers 2 (GameGuard), DJMax Respect V (XingCode), Fantasy Life I (EAC) do works on Linux.
I wish that if they're happy with non kernel mode anti cheat on Linux, just do the same in Windows... Or just disable them if I don't use public matchmaking
Windows has the same issue, but isn't open source and easy to modify. Still, EA are so paranoid that they require it there.
Now hundreds of hours in, I have nothing interesting to write about it. For me and the games I play it's been a seamless transition.
I remember the days of having to manually install steam in Wine and how only a few games would work like that.
What about market share of play time?
So for me it's better than 90% of all games are playable on Linux, than if a handful of games accounting for 90% of market share were playable.
As a young teen with nothing to do, I probably had some days in Summer where I clocked in 16 hours of gaming.
But so much just works, old games, new games, singleplayer, multiplayer.
I can live without that though. I don't think I'll bother setting up a Windows partition on my next PC.
There comes a point were you just don't miss it. The only moments that it is apparent is that disassociation you have when someone else just assumes you run Windows. I don't blame them, I am statistically the odd one there, but that is when you have to figure out things your way.
The real issue isn’t capability but just adoption (IMO): most studios and agencies are chained to Adobe’s ecosystem. If even one major studio publicly switched pipelines to Linux, the floodgates would probably open to actually allow this.
The Year of Linux on the Desktop was near, and wine would surely be a temporary stop-gap.
I think the only game in the last 2 years I haven't been able to run is battlefield 6.
Any game that is reasonably popular has a very good chance of running. Just go to protondb and anything gold and above is generally good to go.
Neither has anyone else, if they bought it directly from EA.
Even if 99% of games worked fine on Linux, a large amount of people spend 50+% of their time in-game in one of those games, so it doesn't end up feeling like 90+% of games work.
Thankfully, the corollary of that is that single-player games pretty much all work, barring some edge cases, like very recent titles that haven't had the kinks ironed out yet.
Besides, the gaming industry keeps shooting themselves in the foot by only supporting Windows (Mac is a thing too). That is slowly changing, but so many game devs are drinking the Microsoft koolaid they don't even consider using another graphics API other than DirectX. Many other decisions like that as well.
It really is impressive how many they are willing to leave behind. A quick check gives about 19% of the market.
Besides, in privately owned servers you were protect via human mods, who were there playing with you. They would bring down the banhammer when a sufficiently suspicious player was deemed as cheating. That is the biggest issue nowadays, one that has brought the bar even higher for anti-cheat solutions. They are now the ONLY line of defense. It really is clear as day that anti-cheat solutions got more and more intrusive as more games stopped allowing third-party servers to exist.
I'm a game dev, I see this, I understand the intentions, I get the consequences. In many ways the intentions weren't bad, it does create a more unified competitive experience. But it made it impossible to not resort to kernel level anti-cheat, even though it is a fruitless effort as so much of the game still needs to be rendered by the end-user's machine (of course, the grim reality is that cloud streaming is the end goal for any competitive game if we continue down this path).
And human mods suck. Really, really suck. They don't have perfect information, and their false positive / negative rate is probably an order of magnitude worse than an anti-cheat. Even a perfectly neutral moderator is bad at judging. And perfectly neutral moderators don't exist. It was not remotely uncommon to be banned from a server for killing the admin too many times.
This is exacerbated by the fact that moderating itself sucks. Moderators are there to play the game. Actually moderating on the side of that is a burden. This leads to the same incentive structure that you see all over the internet, where volunteer moderation mostly attracts people who are interested in power tripping, because otherwise there's very little appeal, and bad actors are more common than people willing to do it out of the goodness of their heart.
There are great points about private server browsers, but it's also just a massive pain to find servers that both have a gameplay configuration you like and also have decent moderation. Improving anti-cheat systems was the obvious way forward rather than relying on humans who are much more fallible. Kernel anti-cheat should fortunately only be a stopgap solution and not something that is here to stay in the industry. Kernel anti-cheat was a result of the failure of Windows to provide sufficient security features themselves. Riot's Vanguard doesn't rely on kernel access for macOS, and Microsoft is actively working on improving the kernel security such that it shouldn't be necessary on Windows in the future either. With any luck we'll be able to forget this era of anti-cheat in a few years.
The gaming industry is thoroughly multi-platform, and many games that are limited to Windows on general-purpose PCs aren't so because the require DirectX, since they've also been developed for Playstation where DirectX isn't a thing.
Support for Mac can be somewhat challenging, partly because the platform (including the hardware) is so different from other general-purpose PCs, and partly because Apple doesn't particularly care about backwards compatibility, and will happily break applications if it suits their interest.
However, a developer that doesn't support Linux does so because they don't want to for whatever reason, not because the technical bar is too high. With the work that has gone into Wine, Proton, and other Windows compatibility libraries these days, there's a good chance that a Windows game will "just work" unless the developer does something to actively inhibit it.
I mentioned DirectX as a clear enough example, but there are other decisions just like it.
Hell, most studios use Unreal nowadays, it already has their own RHI (Rendering Hardware Interface) between them and the graphics API. It really isn't much effort to start new projects targetting Metal or Vulkan.
Some have noticed this section of the market, in which they can grow, like Ubisoft and Capcom (see their games on Mac and iOS) which is why I said it's slowly changing. And that demonstrates it really isn't difficult.
Funny note: Have heard from a bird that Ubisoft's many engines had Vulkan support so their games could run under Google Stadia's servers. As soon as that got killed so did those engine branches. This just shows it isn't difficult at all. And it isn't a surprise they also acknowledged this by now using Metal to reach Apple's users.
If you think game devs are drinking koolaid, do note that there's always loud minority of linux advocates on forums like these, saying 'it works' and when expanding further it turns out they had to do a ton of tweaking and setup. Just look at the comments on getting Overwatch2 to work on linux for an example.
Fact of the matter is most of the game dev's audience is on windows, and for a time it had good tools/documentation for graphics debugging as well. That momentum carried over. It made practical sense to have main development be on windows.
> It makes no sense to leave 19% of the market on the table
What's your source? Steam Hardware Survey says it's 2.68% linux and probably steam deck users.
https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...
For example, this game is on Apple Store (for Mac)⋮
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/resident-evil-village-for-mac/...
Not on Steam:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1196590/discussions/0/3484123...
Same happens with Ubisoft titles.
But, regarding the source, here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste...
I do agree the way these are gathered is not perfect. But closer to reality, or would you assume Mac presence in lower than Linux?
Somehow changing the font scaling in Linux caused the game to be scaled by a similiar amount.. so 2x font scaling = full screen is 2x bigger than actual monitor.. and I can only see 1/4th the screen.
Shame about Battlefield 6, some of my friends are playing that and it would be fun to join them. Oh well. Fortunately they're mostly still playing Helldivers 2 as well, and that works fine.
1. Go to your library
2. Click the filter button
3. Under "hardware support" you'll see a dropdown "Steam Deck" with 4 options, here's some explanation what they mean:
Verified - Means this game 100% works on Linux (and Deck), which is verified by Valve
Playable - Means this game works on Linux (and Deck) but it might have some tiny issues (e.g. font size)
Untested - Might work, but not tested
So to check if your games would run pretty nicely either filter on "Verified" games or "Verified or playable" games and it filters out everything which will or might not run at all.
You'll be surprised how much games can run on Linux these days -- thanks to the massive effort Valve puts in Proton and some devs (including Valve) publishing native Linux builds of their games on Steam, and even things you might not even consider at all like Skyrim or Oblivion with all your favorite mods (!)
The only game that I had an issue with is The Unfinished Swan which I bought on Steam after having enjoyed playing it on a PS3 (good enough to buy twice). I couldn't get it to work initially with it just going to a blank screen (not the game itself which ironically does start with an all white screen) no matter my tinkering with Proton versions. However, tried it again a few months ago and it worked perfectly with default settings.
Windows users with my GPU report the same symptoms as I hit, fwiw.
Being able to use sane scripting to solve problems, ZFS snapshots to undo bad mod installs, using the same system for development, and so on is no longer something I'm willing to give up. I've also started amassing a small collection of Cloud Init configs that set up game servers inside LXD containers. Some of these have native Linux binaries but a few only have Windows servers. They run perfectly well through Wine.
Anyone here even vaguely interested, I encourage you to just try it. I use Ubuntu and it works great on both AMD and Nvidia cards for me. What have you got to lose?
Shit just works. When it doesn't, changing the proton version usually fixes it.
Way better than Windows.
I realize by posting that here on HN I'm tempting people to send me the ProtonDB garbage tier list, but it's true for the types of games I play.
My stack is so vanilla (nvidia, python, R) I can’t think what the issue is. Maybe hardware.
The graphical environment is neither here nor there for me, I just want to do an update and cuda libraries/nvidia drivers not break and for my OS to boot!
26.04 will be a huge upgrade if you stay
It allows my wife to play Stardew Valley on the TV via game streaming, while not disturbing my work at all on the PC. When she launches the game, I don't even notice it on my PC, meanwhile other solutions like Sunshine or Apollo do not let you use your computer while a gaming session is active on a client. Sadly, Duo is Windows only for now, which sucks.
Does anybody know a alternative for Linux that would work this way?
Racing wheels are still not well supported IMO. Although on Linux you can map a racing wheel to any other peripheral and work this around.
Another thing is that streaming experience is not as good on Linux as it is on Windows. OBS exists but the whole ecosystem around it is largely not.
Still... Linux is my choice of OS.
See how with mac os, games like LoL and Valorant do not need a kernel anticheat because the operating system provides enough security.
What point are you trying to make here?
1. That the raw percentage does not important.
2. That Linux distros do not care about investing in security, (nor to game studios themselves) to be able to get major titles like LoL.
As someone who enjoys older games, I am pleasantly surprised that Wine (with dxvk and cnc-ddraw) lets me run more games in a better way than I was able to on Windows.
I can run some 16-bit games on a 64-bit OS!
Games that rudely switch to fullscreen, I can run in Wine Virtual Desktop. Previously on Windows, I had to configure hacks like DxWnd and it didn't always work.
I only wish Wine also allowed me to zoom 2x or 3x, but this is where Gamescope comes in:
gamescope -S integer -F nearest --borderless wine game.exe
I noticed some Unity games waste disk space with gigabytes of zeroes, Linux lets me run them from inside a compressed SquashFS image, this even makes the game load faster:
mkdir ./game
squashfuse ./game.squashfs ./game
pushd ./game
wine game.exe
popd
sleep 1
umount ./game
rmdir ./game
taskset --cpu-list 1 wine game.exeHow did you discover that? Is it intentional on Unity's part? Percentage-wise, are we talking 2% of a 100GB game, or 50% of a 4GB game?
I can't find anything about it online.
I like to look inside game files and a .zip archive of 1GB unpacking to ~10GB game made me suspicious.
So it'd be surprising to me if a developer chose to use uncompressed/lightly compressed assets, and compressing them caused performance to increase; because you're intentionally choosing the tradeoff in the opposite direction the developer did
Of course, there are game developers that are less technical and may not have knowingly made that tradeoff in which case all bets are off, but the games made by those developers tend not to be the kind that require beefy machines to run at 60fps+
That’s not a problem with SSDs and most machines have more cores or even dedicated hardware decoders. Of course it’s also more worthwhile to compress since SSD storage is comparatively more expensive.
The office we worked in had really fast internet, but I was fixing things for the users.
I suppose this might be asset padding or perhaps these are raw textures with full alpha sections? Still, it seems pretty strange. What game, what asset?
[1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/42478186/app-size-on-app...
Maybe Wine could be ported to Windows :-)
IHaveABanana Is this a thing or are you just now trying to make it a thing?
Either way, I like it :)
That's not all that needs to be removed from Windows, and it's not what they're interested in removing. The old MFC, GDI, COMCTL, COMDLG, Winsock etc. must be a lot higher in their "do delete" list.
Look at Apple Macs, all went from x86 to arm, breaking software and fixing incompatibilities later. Users had no choice but to use m1 macOS if they wanted a new device.
This is the proper Wine for Windows but just for DirectX->GL or DirectX-Vulkan.
Also possible using dxwrapper (for DirectX 7-9 games):
https://github.com/elishacloud/dxwrapper
Similarly to dxvk, you drop a few DLLs into the game directory then edit one config file. No need to use a dedicated program.
In the past I migrated to PopOS mainly due to these two things:
1. I prefer flatpaks/system packages over snap[1], if you run `sudo apt install firefox` you'll get a snap application in Ubuntu, that for me is an anti-pattern from Canonical to force adoption of snaps.
2. I found some weird performance issues with my laptop when I installed Ubuntu, thankfully I managed to find a fix after hours of tinkering[2], but I was surprised I had to do these workarounds in the first place (I've been running linux as my main OS since I was a teenager and never had to do anything similar)
If gaming is your main goal I'd consider using something like Bazzite or CachyOS, these two distros will still serve you if you want to run work/office apps too, they just come preconfigured w/ a lot of gaming goodies (like steam and nvidia drivers oob) but won't get into your way if you plan to install other stuff.
[1] https://snapcraft.io/ [2] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1973434...
Every game I've tried on Linux was either gold or platinum on ProtonDB and ran fine so far. WINE worked for running a couple non-game apps. Lutris is another way to run programs but I haven't needed it yet.
Definitely try it if you have a machine sitting there. There is so much support for Linux and Mint on the web it was easy to answer any questions I had setting things up.
I still can get my desktop gaming fix, at least.
It's been a while since I gamed though (2022), but the game ran smoothly on a mobile RTX 2060 card
I also recently finished AC Origins for the first time on my Linux machine.
However I don't play multiplayer ever and apparently that's where most issues are.
I'm a huge Anno fan and I play Anno 1800 like all the time. I own that game on the Ubisoft platform. If Anno 117 runs flawlessly, I maybe will cancel the preorder on ubisoft and get it on Steam...
You can check individual games via ProtonDB e.g. Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag: https://protondb.com/app/242050
Biggest problem I'm running into now is replacing all my music mixing tools. It's getting there, but it's a whole process.
What are you finding that works for this? I know there's a couple decent DAWs, but running Windows-only plugins was a nightmare last time I tried.
Just running these through reaper and it's ok enough.
What were you trying to run games on before you bought the so called "vanilla" PC?
That you say "running games under Wine" is a hint it was a while ago, the modern way to do this is to install Steam and let it handle the compatibility layer.
I uninstalled Windows completely. There are many, many more games that work on my Linux PC than on my Mac.
The last thing we should want is to have an innocent, how-to-pay-rent-on-his-mind, game dev develop for linux thinking it's good only to find out there's a ton more bugs to solve (and having no help for solving them) for 0.01% of his customer base.
https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...
I remember when Cyberpunk 2077 came out it didn't work at first, but the Proton and Glorious Egg Roll devs got it running within a few days. Legends.
Even many games that support native linux run better under wine.
The same is often true on macOS, too – running games through CrossOver is often better than the native port. The reality is that there simply aren't enough professional game devs on Linux and macOS platforms to polish that last 20% and make all the difference.
About a month back, a demo for Lumines Arise came out and it fired up without issue, didn't even think to check ProtonDB because it has become so reliable. I suspect a big part of this is because Steamdeck has been popular enough to have it be targeted for Proton compatibility day 1.
Dual booting from 2 SSDs is a pretty solid solution, as some programs are windows only. YMMV =3
Windows I get 300fps and on linux ~100 and frequent dips
Also, try `LD_PRELOAD="" %command%` to disable steaminput, which can cause input stuttering after around 45min on some machines (such as mine).
Things I'd try:
1. Check in game graphics settings
2. Update graphics drivers to the recommended version (may be non-trivial, I had to update my kernel version)
3. Experiment with different proton versions, including proton GE
4. Experiment with different Direct X versions (in game option)
5. Make sure CPU cooler is running
6. Make sure GPU is being used
7. Use gamescope to configure a virtual monitor that exactly matches the capabilities of your physical monitor
https://boilingsteam.com/windows-games-compatibility-on-linu...
It could use some help from a data visualization designer to make it clearer and easier to read.
Suppose I play one of the 10% games that wouldn't work on Linux, I'd still need to keep my Windows installation around, right?
EDIT: I remember now that Civilization 5 for Linux would crash frequently. I switched to Proton and it's been fine since.
The harsh reality is that until linux requires absolutely zero extra lift for end users, windows will still be the default for the overwhelming majority.
God i hate windows but they are the only company who gives a damn about gaming anymore.
There are a lot of people that are used to tweaking games on Windows, too, I used to be one of them. Lots of people mod their games and have to run them differently to do so or have to shim them in some way to make them work, lots of people search to find answers to problems they are having. Getting up to date graphics drivers used to be a pain in Windows (haven't had to try for many years), it's part of system updates in Linux for me (even running NVIDIA cards). If anything, getting a game to work that has issues on Windows was harder than getting a game to work on Linux that is having issues thanks to protondb.com, at least for me.
So I think there are a lot of people that could just hop over if they wanted to, trading one kind of tech-related problem solving for another kind.
A walled garden doesn't just keep people in, but it keeps other out. And once folks jump out they aren't likely to jump back in.
I just wish I could run Linux on my MacBook Pro so I could actually play games on this beautiful, portable, power-efficient criminally nerfed masterpiece of a laptop.
I've dual booted to game for the last seven or eight years because of coworkers and family nagging me to play games with them, but now I don't need to. I haven't come across a game that won't run flawlessly on Linux (through Steam) for a couple of years now. I can enjoy my nightly game of Deep Rock Galactic or Necesse without being part of the botnet.
No further requirement to run Windows!
I am using EndeavorOS, my first Arch flavoured distro, it's excellent. Honestly it has all "just worked". Drivers were auto installed, I pointed Steam to my existing library on an NTFS drive originally used by windows, and it just plays my existing library fine.
Cyberpunk2077, Red Dead 2, Starfield all objectively AAA modern games, working fine. I even get a bit better performance in some areas, comparable in others.
I can swap back to windows and it still runs the same library. I really didn't expect it to work like that.
The only thing I have had to troubleshoot is getting a Quest3 VR headset to work, and an Alpha stage game which others are getting to work, I just haven't bothered to chase it down.
Last I tried NTFS on Linux it was stable but not fast, especially for writes. If it's not a notable difference between Windows and Linux then that's a big improvement from those days.
I think you could probably get a decent IO performance boost and reduce loading times by moving the library over to something like ext4 or xfs, at the cost of portability.
I'll probably switch to ext4 when I decommission the Windows install entirely.
Now I have Mint. With an AI terminal to help guide/teach me, I find myself really enjoying the power and capability the terminal gives me. My computer has been genuinely USEFUL for debugging serious problems with WiFi calling on my phone and other network connectivity issues, and I still get to play games on steam! Sure, there were one or two hiccups on Outward when I first started, but Bannerlord and everything else I've tried so far plays just fine. It just works! Really!
I was surprised by some of the extras I got from KDE Plasma just for no extra effort, like KDE Connect is amazing and something super painful on Windows and Mac.
Very interested in this: what kind of setup do you use for VR? What troubleshooting was required?
(My background: I have a 10gbit fiber network and wifi 6E to stream to my Quest 3, and play VR that way. Running Arch on a gaming laptop as a way to dip my toes in the water, haven't really tried anything to do with VR (my favourite way to play games) because I'd heard it was a nightmare.)
The reason I stopped trying though is because SteamVR/Steam Link has been getting updates targeted at linux and well, I may as well wait for that for a more matured and hassle free VR PC link.
What matters if it will run if anti cheat software then breaks it?
Shame on you Rockstar (although cheating ruined the game on PC there's been enough time to fix it).
I never managed to get anything close to 90% of my library to run on the same windows installation, but I gave up years ago, and just use Linux instead.
Maybe the only games I ever tried were in that 10% that aren’t supported or will never be supported (hitman, deus ex, etc).
this led me down the rabbit hole for a while of gpu passthrough w/ vfio / sriov and virtual machines. those worked really well but also had their own problems.
in the end i just bought a damned ps5 pro that rarely gets used. but at least it “just works” when I want it to. which is more than i can say for anything remotely related to using linux for games or even as a decent desktop.
and yes, i tried your distro. the only one perhaps that wasn’t a headache was void.
A tiny minority of my steam library even runs at all. Most games I click Play, nothing happens, 5 seconds later the play button is green again. The ones that run, stutter.
Is it still possible if I persist? Probably, but so much for this "just works" marketing.
I've been personally running Linux on my gaming box for 2-3 years I think. AMD hardware, obviously. BF6 doesn't work (and perhaps never can work) because of its quite invasive anti-cheat, but there are so many games out there that it's not a big deal. Insurgency: Sandstorm is a vastly better game anyway.
I realize that this is probably a big deal for many people, though, but perhaps those people are better off with a Playstation anyway.
The Internet Archive happens to have many game ISOs for some reason.
protontricks and gamemode can be useful too.
But after experiencing the new Windows 11 "always-online" model it might make me stick to AMD in the future
The only difference is that updating is a bit easier on AMD, after all, mesa just updates with your OS. But this is merely a note on convenience.
On Linux, I've been having a good run for years now. Steam's Proton is fantastic, if the thing doesn't work, I just select another Proton version, and try again. Or look at ProtonDB on how others did it.
I have also tried the Heroic Launcher, which is similarly good, and open source even. Just create an entry for a game or software, select the executable, select the Proton / Wine version, and it's good to go. No need for an account or anything.
I also have a Steam Deck now, which natively runs Linux, and Steam, and Proton. I'm sure my game selection also matters, but my experience is that everything just works. Valve did a tremendous job with integration - standing on the Wine giant's shoulder, of course.
Multiplayer, specifically the nasty anti-cheat software is the last remaining bastion, I think. For that, I reboot into my Windows 10 LTSC.
The M-series hardware is perfectly fine for most games, overpowered even. What is lacking are the actual games. Very few companies bother with Metal ports of games.
Build a compatibility layer so we can just install any Windows game from Steam and start playing.
https://developer.apple.com/games/game-porting-toolkit/
Why it hasn't taken off, I have no idea.
Proton + Steam is pretty much just clicking "Allow Linux" on a dashboard somewhere and then it'll just work.
Unfortunately, when I try to open it, it gives me a NS_ERROR_UNKNOWN_HOST when it tries to download the page's .js and CSS from a head.protondb.pages.dev domain.
I tried to add that to my /etc/hosts file, but then I got an error about a certificate.
Most strange, and the only clue I found online was this YouTube video[1] that suggests accessing it through Tor...
What's the best Video Card / Brand / Model for running games on Linux? I'm considering upgrading my old gaming PC and would rather also switch to Linux for gaming. (I'm already familiar with Linux for regular use and programming, but haven't gamed on it once).
So really the best card for linux is the card that makes sense for your budget/PC specs/desired target games.
Yes competitive online multi-player games, but these are what I love to play and I play them with many of my friends.
youngNed•3mo ago
dontlaugh•3mo ago
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qudat•3mo ago
ErroneousBosh•3mo ago
preisschild•3mo ago
ErroneousBosh•3mo ago
It doesn't hurt that it works for gaming too though, even though I rarely get time to play anything.
chneu•3mo ago
NVIDIA is pretty good on Linux lately. Id always wait a week before updating drivers tho.
zamalek•3mo ago
mkozlows•3mo ago
If games transition to SteamOS/Linux in general, I think this niche is going to be one of the slower ones to move, but never say never.
maxhille•3mo ago