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California Closed the Montana License Plate Loophole

https://www.thedrive.com/news/heres-how-california-closed-the-montana-license-plate-loophole
30•speckx•2h ago

Comments

blagie•57m ago
> “The bill would hold any officer, manager, partner, beneficial owner, or member of a shell company personally liable for any unpaid taxes, and any interest and penalties on those taxes, the nonpayment of which may constitute a crime, due on the purchase of a vehicle, vessel, or aircraft.”

Is dumb.

You want comprehensive enforcement with reasonable penalities.

You don't want draconian laws randomly enforced.

grvdrm•54m ago
You are speaking deeply to me about leaf blower bans in my town. They are useless.
collabs•42m ago
If it is a blanket leaf blower ban, that is indeed asinine. However, I will gladly support a ban on two stroke engines for leaf blowers the same way I support requiring drivers to wear seatbelts.
trelane•51m ago
> You want comprehensive enforcement with reasonable penalities.

> You don't want draconian laws randomly enforced.

This depends entirely on what the goal of the law is.

bluGill•44m ago
I don't think it will hold up in federal courts. This seems to apply to cars that the company officer who lives and drives in Montana as well. If this only applies to cars used more than 50% in CA is would hold up. Of course truck drivers who mostly don't drive in CA but that is home may find an out with that plan.

Details are important and very hard to get right.

jmilloy•20m ago
> If anyone running the business is a California resident (by the updated definition outlined above), then the whole business is a California resident, and any assets (including Lamborghinis and Bugattis) held in the state are subject to California taxation.

I'm relying on the paraphrasing in article rather than the text of the law itself, but this says that it only applies to assets held in the state.

mikeryan•4m ago
The core of the law, ie who is expected to register their car in CA and what state sales taxes need to be paid has already been in place for years and likely already challenged. This is just a modifier to address a particular loophole.

As long as nothing about this crosses state lines (ie they’re not trying to regulate out of state businesses or property) there’s not a lot to go on. Several states have taken similar steps to close this loophole. Famously the YouTuber whistlindiesel got arrested in Tennessee for this and the case is still pending

https://www.thedrive.com/news/is-the-government-making-an-ex...

linksnapzz•42m ago
What, the government of CA is lobbing hastily-crafted, poorly considered legislation in the general direction of a problem that they think they have?

(surprised pikachu face)

bradthebeaverfa•30m ago
It won't be randomly enforced. It will be enforced against anybody who doesn't support Gavin Newsome.
sandworm101•21m ago
>>You want comprehensive enforcement with reasonable penalities. >>You don't want draconian laws randomly enforced.

Paying tax on a vehicle driven in a state is not unreasonable. And holding the executives of a shell/numbered/privately-held/tax-dodging organization liable for taxes owed is not draconian.

SoftTalker•34m ago
Next headline: More wealthy people leaving California.

These shenanigans with vehicle taxes happen whenever a neighboring state has a significantly better deal. People register vehicles in friends or families names who live in that state, or form a legal entity there which can own the vehicles. Of course then the high-tax state writes more and more convoluted definitions of "residency" for the vehicle to make it subject to taxation, which are either hard to discover/enforce as a practical matter or someone finds a new loophole and the avoidance games continue.

Noaidi•25m ago
> More wealthy people leaving California.

Good! I do not understand why people think this is a bad thing. I would rather be surrounded by poor, kind people than these rich sociopaths.

recursive•19m ago
Good news. There are a lot more poor people in CA than rich.
linksnapzz•16m ago
...and yet, the number of people willing to emigrate to live next to the "rich sociopaths" of sportscar-owning California is far greater than the # trying to emigrate to live amongst the poor, kind people of, say, Cuba.

Funny, that.

testfrequency•9m ago
HN crowd used to hate the rich.

Now comments like this, defending losers with lambos, are seen as admirable.

blaufast•25m ago
Thank you California

Our willingness as a society to tolerate the expense, danger, and health issues brought by extensive car use will be looked back on with bewilderment. You can start to see the insanity when a 'classic' car drives by. It's noisy, heavy, dangerous, and smelly. It's allowed to noticeably pollute any area it passes through. We've made progress, but that level of noise, danger, and pollution is how every car on your street used to be.

Car culture has a unique flavor of regressive entitlement. Every bit of societal and legislative progress that has made cars cleaner and safer has been fought tooth and nail by this group.

Our government created a vast, expensive, open to use resource in roads and infrastructure, offers minimal restrictions an licensing for its use, barely enforces existing safety laws, and the combustion crowd shows outrage at the loss of their illegal activities.

I wish our culture was less tolerant of this behavior. It is a tiny percentage that costs the rest of us constantly. Sometimes its a motorcycle club, others it just rich people shucking the social contract. I'm looking forward to the last Harley getting recycled.

cowlevel•20m ago
Is California making itself less car dependent though or is it just taxing cars while remaining car dependent?
soperj•18m ago
Still is pretty pollutant. You just don't see the brake and wheel dust as much as the fumes coming out of the car dusting everything with lead like they used to.
hydrogen7800•2m ago
>Car culture has a unique flavor of regressive entitlement. Every bit of societal and legislative progress that has made cars cleaner and safer has been fought tooth and nail by this group.

I'm a newcomer to this hobby, and am amazed how this resentment has perpetuated since their muscle cars were neutered in the 70's by emissions regulations. The resentment has transferred to subsequent generations who were not alive then, who still complain about all the emissions and efficiency efforts that carmakers undertake. Too much unnecessary machismo hanging around.

jhallenworld•22m ago
I've seen car dealers in MA use Montana dealer plates. At the very least they are cheaper, avoids $220 / year excise tax and registration fees vs. $25 for Montana. I don't think it helps with any sales taxes- dealers don't have to pay when they buy cars, unlike customers. It would help if dealer uses the car personal reasons instead of just having it for resale.

Hmm... maybe I should start a car dealer just to avoid taxes on my next car..

The Montana plate for owners reminds of registering your boat in Wilmington Delaware to avoid state sales tax. You had to create an LLC to do this I think.

fedpost•16m ago
Can I just take this moment to mention that I think we need a better system for car registrations across the board? I don't like that there are all these edge cases with titles, insurance, inspections/smog, window tint, plate expiry, taxes etc whenever you move or even travel. It feels like we've just turned vehicle ownership into a profit opportunity for the police to harass everyone over completely inconsequential nonsense the second you cross any state line (emissions/insurance aren't nonsense but bear with me pedants). Similarly it creates a mountain of work every time you move.

I wish you could just register under an LLC or trust or something wherever and have a generic plate that can go anywhere and force the states to agree on a set of standards that apply across the country.

Alternatively allow people to keep their plates indefinitely like phone numbers. Yes, this creates arbitrage opportunities but maybe we should be bringing up the standards of the arbitrage states instead of having assholes threaten everyone with guns for random infractions.

I'm kinda just throwing ideas out there but this current system is Kafkaesque.

sandworm101•13m ago
So a race to the bottom on licensing/taxation/safety/insurance/emissions? But only for those wealthy enough to have family trusts?

No. Each state needs the power to set minimum standards as to who can drive what. I don't want to see millionaires be allowed to drive around without insurance in unsafe cars simply because their daddy purchased them a share in a Delaware family-held plates LLC.

fedpost•10m ago
You can create trusts for a few bucks. It's not an inherently rich people thing
sandworm101•3m ago
Ya, good luck trying to defend your 2$ out-of-state trust in local court when it is sued after not having proper insurance to cover the cars it "owns". But wait, you won't even be allowed into court as you need to be a lawyer to represent a corporate entity.
turlockmike•10m ago
Eventually everything will be a use tax. It's the only fair tax and there will always be loopholes otherwise.
Schiendelman•4m ago
You'd think that, but they are deeply unpopular.
kube-system
•
3m ago
No wealthy person is going to save money by relocating from California to avoid a $30k tax bill on an exotic car. Wealthy people have a beach house in California because they like California.

The people who relocate to avoid taxes are upper-middle class people who are overextended on their finances.

fluidcruft•10m ago
States could harmonize laws (if they wanted to).
fedpost•6m ago
That's kinda what I'm getting at I think. We've created a patchwork hell full of arbitrage and petty harassment and everyone's just kind of fine with it
kotaKat•4m ago
Similarly, the car purchasing process is a nightmare. Carvana faced that one the hard way trying to sell across the US and ended up forming their own lobbying band to push for digital and electronic titling and registration.

https://www.estartcoalition.org/

I suspect eSTART is... a start to what you're looking for.

axus•4m ago
Someone could compile every vehicle regulation from all the states into one common list. It'd be more restrictive than any single state, but it would be consistent. And if someone doesn't like it, they can fall back to their local laws.
cmckn•3m ago
Moves to different states are not common for the average American, and I would prefer that states retain the power to implement their own policies in this area. I would not want to see e.g. California unable to change emissions policy because Texas isn’t on board.

Complexity is a cost of our federal system and I am okay paying it in most cases.

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California Closed the Montana License Plate Loophole

https://www.thedrive.com/news/heres-how-california-closed-the-montana-license-plate-loophole
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