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Lobbying Is Corruption

https://carette.xyz/posts/lobbying_and_corruption/
111•LucidLynx•56m ago

Comments

Isamu•34m ago
Conflating two things. Actually lobbying is the act of trying to persuade by meeting with a representative. Campaign contributions are also a way of persuading but are separate.

I say this because you could make monetary contributions illegal and lobbying would still be legal and ethical. We talk about campaign contributions as a separate issue and they have been treated in the courts separately.

I agree that putting strict limits on campaign finance is an important battle that is still ahead of us.

Campaign finance is [currently] corrupt. But it doesn’t have to be that way.

boxed•23m ago
100%. Experts need to talk to politicians who don't understand the issue in order to make them understand and make better laws. If we banned anyone from trying to talk to a politician ("lobbying") we would get enormously stupid laws all the time.
totetsu•8m ago
Its too simplistic to think that the only form of political signaling that should happen is ... one person one vote as a basis for a mandate to represent peoples interests. Its easy to see how that can lead to a tyranny of the majority situation. There does need to be a path for influence for those with special interests in an area to influence decisions also. I think the arguments usually come down to which types of special interests give which types of standing on an issue.. if we want to say a business working in an industry shouldn't lobby then do we also say that a local environmental group should have a say about some area they are experts on also.. Some things are also put up for general referendum even when they outweightedly affect only a small group.. I think a lot of places had made progress towords finding this balance of steakholder representation.. but now were just slipping back to creptocracy and tyranny eveywhere and forgetting it all.
oytis•5m ago
Why not find experts in e.g. universities? Or, like, hire people with industry experience to provide advice rather than let industry hire politicians?
dauertewigkeit•34m ago
Americans please stop sanctifying Europe/Europeans. It's annoying.
schleck8•32m ago
It is important that you never look beyond your own borders. Solving every issue from scratch instead of replicating systems that already work elsewhere is great. Is that what you are saying in the context of the article?
pavinjoseph•33m ago
I'm surprised by all the lobbying-apologists in the comments!
a_humean•30m ago
When you wrote that there were no other comments in the entire thread? Bot?
lesuorac•28m ago
Because lobbying is a generic word and banning lobbying makes just as much sense as banning talking.

MADD [1] is a lobby group but they don’t have influence by donating billions of dollars.

Its makes much more sense to just reverse the changes in lobby rules (Citizens United) than to “ban” lobbying.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothers_Against_Drunk_Driving

well_ackshually•19m ago
No, they're an advocacy group, and people like you are useful idiots giving lobbyists an excuse every single time. "Oh but look, if you ban us, you also ban the 'don't kill puppies' group! Wouldn't that be terrible?"

MADD does not pay politicians. MADD does not bring politicians gifts. MADD does not invite them to an expensive restaurant for three hours of one on one. MADD does not do any of the things a lobbyist does that is, for all intents and purposes, corruption.

So you know what ? Yeah, let's silence the don't kill puppies group, if it means that the leeches at the european commission also don't get their ways. "oh but then it will be done secretly" good that means it's officially corruption and we can jail everyone involved.

FallCheeta7373•33m ago
I would take public lobbying anyday over outlawing it like where I live and it being restricted to people who have enough money to do it behind closed doors.
analyst74•27m ago
In practice, there is very little difference, no point splitting hair saying coke is better than pepsi.
FallCheeta7373•23m ago
I would rather have the ability to do it rather than not on pure ideological grounds,furthermore not banning it incentivises transparency, you can see more of where the money is coming from for example in US democrats are funded by more aggregate donors.
well_ackshually•18m ago
Ah, yes, transparency. "I received 250000€ from Renault-Nissan. No particular reason no. They just really like me. We talked. Also please don't pay attention to my upcoming votes and law proposals".

Lobbying is corruption, and it's also pay to play. Noone gets anything good out of it.

FallCheeta7373•10m ago
Calling it corruption and outlawing it doesn't stop the power of money and elite circles, it rather prevents small aggregate firms from doing it and yes I would rather know if they received such donation from renault for same reason I would want to know if a climate study is funded by oil corp.
Razengan
pockybum522•29m ago
It's crazy that we need this article. It's just bribery with a single extra step. I never understood how everyone thought this was normal while growing up.
jmathai•29m ago
Lobbying is teriboe and the explanation cited is good for those unfamiliar.

Also, political ads in the U.S. have become so obnoxious. I don’t know how it is elsewhere.

Ads in the U.S. are personal attacks at the opponents character or lies about them. There is currently an ad about how an opposing politician supports sex change surgery without parent consent. Nothing is believable about the ad - yet somehow it’s not slander or libel.

This is the ad. https://youtu.be/WFISHnLCmms

speerer•29m ago
If I had an opinion on an issue but no dog in the fight; and if I were to explain my opinion to politicians in the hope they might learn from or even share it -- I may well be "lobbying", but I don't believe I'd be corrupt.
Jolter•25m ago
That’s not what lobbying is, though. If have “no dog in the fight”, you are unlikely to try to influence a politician any which way. Lobbyists appear because someone with money is willing to pay for the lobbyist to apply their talents, and why would they if they had no “dog in the fight”?
pluc•25m ago
Well the problem is that access to politicians (who are supposed to represent you) is almost entirely through lobbyism. If you want anything, you can't afford it - and you definitely can't afford to go against existing lobbyists. It becomes corruption when only certain people have access to a democratic mechanism. It doesn't help that in the US, corporations are people and cash is their speech and you can't do or say anything about it because that would be treasonous.
singularity2001•27m ago
Glad that this pops up again because someone flagged a similar discussion:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50029630

tfrancisl•24m ago
Any discussion that is at least slightly explicitly political (as opposed to everything, which is at least implicitly political) is liable to be removed by the mods. It's up to whether they see it and whether it offends their sensibilities in the moment.
airstrike•16m ago
They are flagged because they are off topic for HN
oytis•26m ago
Not sure where in Europe the author lives, but in Germany we absolutely have lobbying, "donations", "connections" and politicians meandering between corporations and public offices that are meant to regulate the same corporations, all without any consequences
bratwurst3000•18m ago
yes and bribing politicians was kind of legal in germany till 2024, yes two years ago! They even bragged till the 90s with how much money the got from industry because it meant they had a better reputation industriewise

this one is new https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__108e.html

edit:: honestly germany is maybe one of the most corrupt countrys in the world because it was not only legal but best practice to work with the professional advise of the industry.

claaams•26m ago
Americans on average are too stupid and too easily manipulated for this to ever be a matter of concern for them though.
rayiner•20m ago
Half of Europe didn't even get democracy until the 20th century and they're calling Americans "stupid"? LOL.
jeremyjh•17m ago
Its interesting to see this comment about a blog article that conflates lobbying with campaign donations and super PACS. Lobbyists certainly make donations - as do many entities - but that isn't what makes them lobbyists.
u1hcw9nx•25m ago
Basic internet response to everything is that when something essential involves something bad, we should forget the nuance and use slogans "X is BAD".

I want to push back against that. Lobbying is not corruption. All interest groups should have the ability to talk to lawmakers and present their viewpoints. That is essential for good lawmaking. It should be open (and is in the EU) with lobby registers (author uses lobbying as a synonym for corporate lobbying, confusing the issues).

Lobbying easily involves corruption, and that has to be constantly worked against (Qatargate, Cash for Amendments in 2011) for example. Hiring EU lawmakers after they leave the office should have long cooldown limits.

Current problems with EU lobbying: Corporate lobbying is over 60% of registered lobby spending. Civil society interest groups, consumer groups, and labor unions have less money. Revolving doors, astroturfing from foreigin states and corporations, and too much reliance on self-declaration in transparency register.

These can be all solved: mandatory meeting disclosures, declaration of private interests and assets, MEPs should be banned on paid lobbying activities, and long cooling-off periods before MEPs can become lobbyists, independent refinforcement, public annex for all directives and regulation listing interest groups involved.

People should care and make these political issues.

daishi55•16m ago
If we define lobbying as using your financial resources and/or political connections (which others lack) to successfully influence policy, then of course it’s corruption. It’s a non-level playing field. Disclosure or transparency do not change this fundamental fact. And it’s an embarrassment to any real idea of egalitarian democracy.
oxmo456•14m ago
I would usually agree with this kind of reasoning. Yes there is good things too... But also too much abuse that clearly don't go in the interest of the people... So to me yes... It is corruption
roenxi•23m ago
There are typically two words for every act in English - the positive and negative spin (bribery, lobbying). Lobbying is lobbying because the elites consider it to be within the bounds of fair play. In some sense it isn't bribery because bribery is the act but when it is illegal.

And although lobbying is generally bad public lobbying is a much healthier equilibrium than what a lot of countries do - everyone playing pretend that the government officials are acting out of some sense of noblesse oblige and there aren't powerful interest groups. Humans don't work that way, they've never worked that way and the whole idea that they might is quite likely a propaganda campaign by some very ugly people who would never be allowed to hold power if there was any level of public debate on what they were doing.

There is a huge issue here that alternative approaches must address - if wealthy, powerful people can't get what they want within the system then they'll destabilise the system until they can. The poor and powerless have, over the millennia, proven far too disorganised and unprincipled to stop the wealthy and powerful. It is almost always factional conflicts between wealthy, powerful people that move the status quo around.

rayiner•21m ago
> Corporations and rich people give money to politicians. Not directly, of course: to their campaigns.

It is illegal under U.S. federal law for corporations to give money to campaigns.

t43562•16m ago
The man on the street may not understand the problems of companies that manufacture components for e.g. airliners. Those industries probably do need to be able to communicate what's affecting them and the government probably does need to at least consider such things in the overall plan. The question might be: how much do we need to consider it. e.g. Big tobacco - should we care if they die out completely?

Us little guys probably want to hear the contents of those meetings so we can check that they do make sense. Private influencing is dangerous.

We also don't want people going from the Ministry of Defence or the Army straight into working for a defence company - that should be illegal and yet it happens a lot here in the UK.

Civil servants and politicians should get a comfortable pension and be unemployable for 3 years after their term.

dgellow•16m ago
Lobbying is an essential part of the EU. It’s a regulated activity, with its whole processes. I have no idea why the author believes it’s something Europeans aren’t familiar with
shevy-java•9m ago
> It is not a bribe, because a bribe would be illegal.

But it is a bribe. It is not the fault of the people if legislation has been undermined in democracies to suit the rich.

This is a problem pretty much all democracies have, to varying extent.

•
24m ago
I would take the complete removal of meat-based politicians replaced with open-source AI with transparent training, weights, and a window into its decision/reasoning process open to the public at all times.

Voting for amendments will be implemented as pull requests :)

well_ackshually
•
13m ago
or we ban lobbying _and_ we force transparency on meetings, finances and all these problems solve themselves when we investigate them and they're found guilty of corruption.

> Lobbying is not corruption.

Cool story, lobbying is corruption.

>All interest groups should have the ability to talk to lawmakers and present their viewpoints.

Me accidentally paying for a 3 star restaurant for an MEP isn't "talking" to lawmakers. It's buying them off. Total can do it 20 times every day. You can't.

dsr_•7m ago
Pikers.

Buying the house that a Supreme Court Justice's mother lives in, that's corruption.

Jcampuzano2•7m ago
"Lobbying is a form of advocacy that legally attempts to influence policy decisions"

I think there's a problem with definitions here. How the general public, especially here in the U.S., tends to think of lobbying is essentially always in the form of monetary value or gifts. In an ideal world, this probably should be banned for fairness reasons. Smaller institutions would always have necessarily less influence and power over policy.

In theory any exchanges of monetary value or gifts should be well documented and must be disclosed. In actuality, it's much harder to document than meets the eye. There are so many ways around it that it's almost worth saying it doesn't exist (admittedly it seems especially egregious in the US but I'm no expert on how its done elsewhere).

But then, at the same time if we conclude that it's hard to document then it's hard to ban it. Its just a slippery slope all around. Institutions must be allowed to petition their government, but making sure that doesn't go too far and lend itself to corruption is difficult to enforce.

So that is likely where the author and the rest of us lead to the conclusion that the eventual result of lobbying as its implemented in essentially everywhere in the world is corruption.

jkahrs595•6m ago
As others have already stated, lobbying solves a problem that doesn’t need to exist. It’s absolutely corrupt when you fix a problem with more problems.

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