A very small model could run on device to automatically switch and choose the right model based on the request. It would help navigate the difficult naming of each model of each vendor for sure.
This is harder than it looks. A “router” model often has to be quite large to maintain routing accuracy, especially if you’re trying to understand regular user requests.
Small on-device models gating more powerful models most likely just leads to mis-routes.
Despite the incredible focus by the press on this topic, Mistral's lifecycle emissions in 18 months were less than the typical annual emissions of a single A320neo in commercial service.
Fossil fuel companies are damn good at PR, and they know well that they simply can't make themselves look good. The next best thing? Make someone else look worse.
If an Average Joe hears "a company that hurts the environment" and thinks OpenAI and not British Petroleum, that's a PR win.
If we take the total training footprint and divide that by the number of tokens the model is expected to produce over its lifetime, how does that compare to the marginal operational footprint?
My napkin math says per token water and material footprints are up 6-600% and 4-400% higher respectively for tokens on the order of 40B to 400M.
I don't have a good baseline on how many tokens Mistral Large 2 will infer over the course of its lifetime, however. Any ideas?
Even if the company is "green" they make money, they pay employees/stockholders, those people use the money to buy more things and go on vacations in airplanes. Worse, they invest the money to make more money and consume more goods.
Even your gains and vegetables are shipped in to feed you, if you walk to the grocery store. You pay rent/mortgage for a house built with concrete and steel. The highest priced items you pay for are also likely the most energy and environmentally costly. They create GDP.
It's a little weird with LLMs right now, because everything is subsidized by VC, Ads, BigCo investment so you can't see real costs. They're probably higher than the $30-200/mo you pay, but they're not 10x the price like your rent, car payment, food, vacation, investment/pension are.
So I guess one saves a lot of emissions if one stops tiktok-ing, hulu-ing, instagram reel-ing, etc.
greyadept•3h ago
preciz•3h ago
evrimoztamur•3h ago
j-pb•3h ago
1Kg of Beef costs:
Applied to their metric Mistral Large 2 used: France produces 3836 Tons of Beef per day,and one large LLM per 6 months.
So yeah, maybe use ChatGPT to ask for vegan recipes.
People will try to blame everything else they can get a hold on before changing the stuff that really has an impact, if it means touching their lifestyle.
The LLMs are not the problem here.
bluefirebrand•2h ago
j-pb•2h ago
I use LLMs to do all of my coding these days, it's certainly more essential for feeding me than beef.
leksak•2h ago
j-pb•2h ago
This is exactly the kind of cognitive dissonance in people that I meant.
You literally see the math and go "but I like my meat, why should I give that up if you got your AI".
Because, as I just demonstrated, my AI takes a infinitesimal fraction of your meat.
It literally takes you only going vegan for a day to offset your entire AI usage of a year.
jrflowers•2h ago
j-pb•2h ago
And any discussion that tries to frame them as somewhat equally important issues is dishonest and either malicious or delusional.
My guess, as I've expressed earlier in the comment chain, is that it's emotionally easier for people to bike-shed about the 0.01% of their environmental impact, than to actually tackle things that make up 20%.
And no it's not only beef (which is a stand-in for meat and diary), another low hanging fruit is also transport, like switching your car for a bike.
But switching from meat and diary to a vegan diet would reduce up to 20% of your personal environmental impact, in terms of CO2.
And about 80-90% of rainforest deforestation is driven directly or indirectly by livestock production.
So it's simply the easiest most impactful thing everyone can do. (Switching your car for a bike isn't possible for people in rural areas for example.)
jrflowers•1h ago
You make a good point. A problem is only a real problem if you can’t find a bigger thing that makes it look small by comparison. For example, the worldwide concrete industry creates more co2 than beef does so there is no reason to stop eating beef if you enjoy it.
Now I know that some might say that “all of this is cumulative” or “the material problems that stem from entrenched industries is actually a reason not to invent completely novel wasteful things rather than a justification for them” but in reality only two things are true: only the biggest problem is real, and the only problem is definitely some other guy’s doing. If I waste x energy and my neighbor wastes y amount, a goal of reducing (x+y) is oppressive whereas a goal where I just need to try to keep x lower than y feels a lot nicer.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/25/concrete-the-...
https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/publication...
AnimalMuppet•1h ago
jrflowers•49m ago
Seeing as these models being wasteful is integral to the revenue of companies like OpenAI and Anthropic, the more people that tell them that the right business strategy is to start perpetually building data centers and power plants, the less incentive they have to build models that run efficiently on consumer hardware.
j-pb•48m ago
mlnj•1h ago
motoxpro•1h ago
plants•2h ago
j-pb•2h ago
JimDabell•1h ago
> Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment
— https://andymasley.substack.com/p/individual-ai-use-is-not-b...
He’s done some good followup articles as well:
https://andymasley.substack.com/s/ai-and-the-environment
jrflowers•2h ago
stonogo•2h ago
aziaziazi•1h ago
[0] https://www.kildwick.com/
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=j-pb
jiehong•3h ago
jeffbee•2h ago
kingstnap•1h ago
If you buy $10 in tokens, that probably folds into ~$3 to $5 dollars in electricity.
Which would be around 30 to 90 kWhr in electricity.
Depending on the source, it could be anywhere from ~500g/kWhr (for natural gas) and ~24g/kWhr for hydroelectric.
It's a really wide spread, but I'd say for $10 in tokens, you'd probably be in the neighbourhood of 1 kg to 40 kg of emissions.
What's a good thing is that a lot of the spread comes from the electricity source. So if we can get all of these datacenters on clean energy sources it could change emissions by over an order of magnitude compared to gas turbines (like XAi uses).
dijit•1h ago
People are selling AI at a loss right now.