Now, how prime real estate is doled out back in earth...
Though I wonder if something like nobility would make a comeback – when you can have almost anything you want, one of the things you can’t have is someone else’s family line! "New money" is meaningless in a society without money, but "old money" has the same value as it always has had – and it’s obvious why the former isn’t really held in high regard in many real societies either, compared to the latter. Banks talks about this a bit in Excession.
The demand for prime real estate is largely solved in the Culture by Orbitals anyway; indeed preferring to live on something as space-inefficient as a planet is seen as quaint and slightly eccentric.
The post-scarcity thing didn't hold up to scrutiny either, even fictionally: there was nearly a civil war on Bajor because the Federation couldn't come up with enough soil reclamators to prevent a possible famine at one point. Any time something needed to be scarce for the sake of the plot or drama, it was.
For me the reality is, I would still want to be doing something. I would be more picky about what I would be doing but at its core I would likely still be doing work similar to what I am doing now, just instead I would make sure it is working towards something I have a passion for.
Otherwise, what are you doing with your life? Just sitting at home all the time, that is boring.
Me too. The reality of my existence is that I have tons that I want to do, and having to work for a living really gets in the way of doing it. The irony being working for a living provides funds for doing the stuff I'm actually interested in while at the same time draining away time for that same stuff.
Once you get hooked on travel, meeting cultures, doing various outdoor sports (some more or less extreme), questions like that become meaningless.
And that is before the ultimate meaning of life - kids come along.
And if you want to deal with money there are plenty of opportunities at the fringes of the Federation and beyond.
I think it fails because the only people who want to lead a revolution are megalomaniacs who get into power after the revolution and turns it into a dictatorship instead of turning it over to the people. The average person just wants to live their life which is why populist strong men who promise more of the same old life are getting voted in.
edit: As for no money, they have replicators so the barrier to production is pretty much free making money mostly unnecessary. If I can walk up to a machine and have it produce a perfectly cooked steak with only energy and some form of matter input (air?) there's no need for cattle, ranches, ranchers, transport, slaughter, butchering, more transport, markets, etc. Basically the entire supply chain has been eliminated. And if that replicator makes more replicators, batteries and PV or whatever then yeah, game over for money.
But in all those cases, you wouldn't need to charge, because what would you spend the money on?
I think it unfortunately only works on a small scale where humans have a reason to care about each other, where they personally benefit from "sticking together" or the risks of not doing so are high. I.e., a village or small tribe (Native Americans were essentially communists), the crew of the Enterprise, a kibbutz or small colony, etc. Once you scale it up, people just don't care enough about the millions of others to be willing to do anything other than looking out for themselves.
Very good science fiction depicting post scarcity society are Iain M. Banks Culture novels. To me it feels like a far more realistic post-scarcity future than Star Trek (although The Expanse feels more likely than either).
In the Culture there are AIs which remove the need for humans to do any more work and at times in the book he mentions how citizens find meaning to their existence despite a lack of drive for wealth or materials.
In one book (I can't remember which one) in passing it talks about a spaceship being somewhat pointlessly assembled by people, not because it's needed (AI and machines can do it), but because those people wanted to do something they thought would be interesting, I guess they thought of it like building a cathedral.
In the Player of Games, the protagonist prides themselves on being able to master any kind of (non-sports type) game and has built their social status and identity around it.
Despite the utopian existence, messy situations do arise and the stories tend to revolve around an organization within the Culture called "Special Circumstances", which exist to handle "Special Circumstances" which is anything outside of the usual, sometimes covert, sometimes diplomatic, sometimes crisis solving.
Anyway, I highly recommend them if you're into reading.
This is essentially why I stopped reading books that exist solely to push some economic philosophy or something. You can make anything work in fiction. Here, watch:
"On Dysokis, the fifth planet settled by Earth, everyone is happy and healthy and lives in perfect harmony all the time, working together to advance the common good."
That was easy to write. It's not particularly any harder to expand it out into a story. But it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean I have a path to that any more than anyone else does, or that if I do expand it out into a story, or a massive multi-decade shared franchise, that it has anything that can be practically obtained or emulated.
What "The Federation doesn't have money" really means is, we don't want stories about Geordi worrying about how he's going to pay his nephew's rent or Data arguing about whether or not he his patent for some $TECH is being violated and he's not getting paid out properly. We don't want stories about how some medical issue could be fixed but Ensign Bob can't afford to pay for it. We don't want stories about Commander Sally arguing about her pay raise. I know that's not what Roddenberry would have thought, but it's what it comes out to practically in the end in the shared universe.
And it works, and on the net despite its unreality I think it was a fantastic thing for the franchise. In the end, despite my disagreements with it being possible, the fact that I don't think Roddenberry meant it that way, and the fact that I don't even think Roddenberry was a particularly good guy, I think he backed into something that is a great deal of what made the Star Trek universe very special and why so many of us have enjoyed it so much. There's nothing wrong with the science fiction that explores societies that still have money and still have the resulting conflicts, but there's also nothing wrong with sometimes saying "Hey, that's not what this franchise is about" and using that as a way to explore into story spaces that the other franchises really can't, because money and conflict and such are forced by the logic of that particular franchise to wedge their way in and essentially dilute the rest of the story.
Would The Measure of a Man (can Data be dissembled and studied by Starfleet against his will?) been improved by adding a subplot about an argument about the size of the bond that should be posted before the trial? Would the Dominion War have been improved by an extensive plot about bribery causing substandard war ships to be created because someone at Utopia Planetia was just straight-up lining their pockets? There's nothing abstractly wrong with these ideas and they've been used in other series to good effect, but it's nice to have a series that spent no time on that particular aspect. And there'd be nothing wrong with some other franchise focusing almost exclusively on such a story.
But I don't think of the Federation "not having money" as anything other than a story device, and were I in charge of the franchise I would have written straight into the story bible that this is a framing device and authors are not to sit there and try to examine the details too closely, or try to write stories around how the idea doesn't really work. There's nothing to emulate there, there's no path from here to there, it just doesn't work. At least not with the model of human that I live with.
You don't seem to be acknowledging that rent goes down when basically anyone can start their own colony within a huge stretch of the galaxy, or that patents and wage comparison look kind of silly when everyone's basic needs are far beyond met, or that 'fixing a medical issue' becomes crazy cheap when replicator technology and computers are that far advanced.
> I would have written straight into the story bible that this is a framing device and authors are not to sit there and try to examine the details too closely
Star Trek: Lower Decks explored these ideas a bit more - right around the same time they were cancelled. Great episodes, highly recommend checking them out.
This would explain why throughout the franchise, people believe Earth is a paradise and they claim humans have evolved beyond their base desires but it obviously isn't true.
If food, energy, medical care and transportation was as cheap as it is in Trek then it might actually make it to post scarcity. One thing that makes Star Fleet such a successful organization is combination meritocracy and diversity. I think any organization that nails that will be very successful.
In The Expanse the economies are much more relatable ones of exploitation, poverty, and extreme scarcity. Specifically watching the nationalist Martian society collapse was very interesting and felt realistic.
This is similar to when people call The Sprawl a dystopia: conditions in it are far better then what most people live in today.
The people of Earth live relatively cushy lives at the expense of the belters. The UN and corporations extract resources from the belt, they overthrow democratically elected leaders to prop up corrupt puppet leaders to do Earth's bidding. All the while, the belters see little of the riches that they're force to extract. Also, unfortunately for the poor of Earth, that wealth also doesn't trickle down to them.
It is a pretty accurate analogy of the current state of affairs of Earth today, but the divide is between the Global North and the Global South.
The people of Global North live relatively cushy lives at the expense of the belters. The governments and corporations of the Global North extract resources from the belt, they overthrow democratically elected leaders to prop up corrupt puppet leaders to do Global North's bidding. All the while, the working class of the Global South see little of the riches that they're force to extract. Also, unfortunately for the poor of Global North, that wealth also doesn't trickle down to them.
The Earth of The Expanse is a warning, not an aspiration.
and if air quality worsens now that the EPA decided climate change isn't real, it paves the way for more entrepreneurs of this kind ("see? economic growth!!")
[0] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-vitality-air-...
And if a critical amount of people decided to try luck working on asteroids, it might mean that they didn't had a comfortable way of life down here at the start of the process, and probably by the end of it too.
That is because The Expanse does a lot of "the stuff that happen(s)(ed) on Earth, but in space!". Don't get me wrong, it also does a lot of great scifi stuff, but the factions and people are quite one-dimensional unimaginative analogues of known factions.
This approach makes it relatable (and commercially more successful) but not necessarily more realistic. It's like predicting flying horse carriages and flying cars versus helicopters, planes, and rockets.
Related: IMHO, one of the worst things about the 'relatable extrapolation of the present' aspect is that it limits popular scifi enormously. There's usually some special space carved out for humans or very human-like creatures doing very human things with the environment pretty magically being incredibly Earth-like all the time for hundreds or thousands of years in the future, even though the lives of humans today are already incredibly alien compared to those of humans just 200 years ago.
This one is a fantasy, which communism (that I lived in) had shown many times.
>resource-based distribution, and needs-based allocation systems.
if you have this
>post-scarcity economics
And AFAICT even energy and material goods are scarce in the economic sense. The replicator can replicate replicators so that and any goods that a replicator can create seem not scarce, but the replicator still requires energy to run. Energy is crazy cheap and abundant in Star Trek, but it's not unlimited.
Land can't be that scarce. How many times did we see an entire planet colonized by like 200 people? Also, it seems like very few cities in the future have put hard caps on building height.
People have their own replicators, as you say; and cheap abundant energy. The need for labour is vastly reduced.
And dilithium, while 'rare' is not an essential commodity for anything except space travel.
> even energy and material goods are scarce in the economic sense.
Sure; but they are abundant enough that 'fair distribution' hardly matters, which I think was the OP's point.
I'm not so sure. In most of the US if people only used water for drinking and bathing then water would be so abundant fair distribution wouldn't matter. But when it's free-ish then people abuse it and we have water shortages.
Communicator
Communicate remotely between two arbitrary points.
It claims smartphones is that (though surely cellular phones would count then; why not list Motorola or whatnot?); but in Star Trek, the communicator works everywhere without cellular towers (well except when it doesn't for plot reasons). I wouldn't say a device like the communicator is available yet.Like sure I guess you could infer it by grouping I guess but how does that selection UI work?
(Though that's far less infuriating then the question of why transporter pattern boosters exist, can be transported, and yet numerous episodes exist of beaming into an environment and not being able to beam out. Why is standard protocol not to always send down a signal booster?)
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/55156/why-is-there...
They're not communicator sized yet as far as I know, but they've shrunk a lot.
You can't make blanket statements about a massive franchise written by dozens if not hundreds of writers over decades, but generally the communicators are not depicted as being able to communicate much beyond orbit either, so it's not like we need to match some sort of cross-system communication.
The orbital parameters the ships go in to for their "standard orbit" are also very hazy, but given the power the ships are demonstrated as having in both tech specs and visual representations it's very believable that during important missions the ship can linger within visual range of a given spot on an unexplored planet indefinitely, not necessitating a ring of satellites be deployed or anything. This also explains the lack of "Beam me up" - "Sure, in five minutes when we come back over the horizon" conversations. So we probably only need to match line-of-sight communications.
Cool website. Would love to subscribe to status changes via email.
"Dematerialize matter from one location and then rematerialize it in a second location. "
is worth the same as "Automatic sliding doors"
tonetegeatinst•6h ago
From detection, activating an electromagnet or a material inspired by geko grip that is activated by a current would be a great start.