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Butlerian Jihad

https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad
56•wetwater•40m ago

Comments

Mistletoe•37m ago
This will seem like prophecy and not fiction someday.
ButlerianJihad•35m ago
There is actually an active "BJ" group in the Phoenix Metro area. It was about a year ago when I noticed they were slapping up custom graffiti stickers on Central Avenue (Midtown).

Then later, I saw their handiwork in person: they would take an angle-grinder and obliterate the QR Code from those rental e-Scooters, slap on a BJ sticker or three, and then leave them where they found them. This would render the scooters as e-waste, un-rentable and blocking the sidewalks.

I would not be surprised if they are quietly influencing groups which are agitating against AI Data Centers. But the BJ I have seen is a chaotic group of direct urban sabotage.

bigyabai•10m ago
Maybe, but Frank Herbert's Dune books don't really explain it. The Butlerians simply exist to justify Mentats, and then get tossed aside. There are lots of similar plot points that have an "oh cool" moment but never see proper exploration.

Dune's central theme about balancing power and authority is much more prescient for our time, but I suppose we'll have to wait for Villeneuve's Part 3 before Silicon Valley discusses it.

paulddraper•34m ago
This gets mentioned on HN at least 5 times a day.
tarpitt•33m ago
My favorite quote from dune:

Greatness is a transitory experience. It is never consistent. It depends in part upon the myth-making imagination of humankind. The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him. And he must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself. Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man.

grigri907•5m ago
This isn't from the first book, is it?
andrewstuart•32m ago
Iain M Banks sci fi also has stories where AIs must be wiped out.
jiggawatts•9m ago
To be more specific, the machine Minds rule the Culture civilisation and the humanoids are effectively mere pampered pets.

(Several characters in the novels comment on this, so it is entirely cannon.)

The Culture fought a war against the Idirans, who eschew the use of intelligent machines. The Idirans lost.

Similarly, the Gzilt civilisation in the novel The Hydrogen Sonata prefer to run their ships with a quorum of uploaded humanoid mind states running at highly accelerated speeds.

Fricken•30m ago
You got me wondering what the Imperium of Man's official stance is on AI:

The creation of a Silica Animus is also a terrible crime under Imperial Law by the decree of the Emperor of Mankind Himself as stated in the Treaty of Mars which united the ancient Mechanicum of Mars with the Imperium of Terra in 739.M30. Tradition holds that such unholy constructs are inherently evil and a perverted abomination in the sight of the Omnissiah.

Adeptus Mechanicus religious doctrine states that the Machine Spirit of a Silica Animus is a twisted mockery of the soul of a Human, always treacherous and insane.

Ancient texts tell apocryphal stories, shrouded in metaphor, of such murderous and powerful creations during the Age of Technology, and the legions of the "Men of Iron" that served them in the great war against Humanity remembered as the "Cybernetic Revolt."

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Silica_Animus

nullstyle•10m ago
Leagues of Votann and their ironkin offer IMO a thoughtful counterbalance:

Whether one is made from meat or metal, kin is kin. Upon their creation Ironkin are fully welcome into their respective Hold by the rest of the Kin.[10]

Ironkin are computationally advanced enough that they have learned to mimic the squats' social behavior

...

Though the purpose of the Ironkin is to support squats in every aspect of their lives, they are neither held in servitude nor treated as lessers. The Ironkin are simply designed to want to be helpful. However, they can only imitate the emotions of the squats, and it is rare, but not unknown, for an Ironkin to possess ambition or seek to become a leader.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ironkin

ks2048•26m ago
In the book - is it men vs machines? Because it’s pretty clear in our world it will be men+machines vs men(probably also + some machines)
Jailbird•5m ago
The book starts out thousands of years after it's all over... but later books (prequels) get into into it for us die-hard followers of the series.
heteric•26m ago
But in the last book, Duncan arrives at the conclusion that humans and machines have to merge.
defrost•19m ago
After a thousand years of pause ... they didn't exactly run head first into total embrace in a single generation.
cautiouscat•23m ago
What I find interesting about thinking machines in Dune, is that in a lot of sci-fi the artificial intelligence itself is what decides to destroy humanity. In Dune, humans in charge of the machines (technocrats) are the ones that come close to destroying humanity. The Jihad was a fight against them, as much as it was against the machines themselves.

So, in a way, we're more likely to see the Dune version of "machines taking over the world/universe" than say, Terminator's even though many joke about ChatGPT/Claude being Skynet.

AlotOfReading•7m ago
I'm not sure we read the same story. By the time of the inciting incident, the technocrat cyborgs (Titans) have been enslaved by the machine leader, which has no humans in charge of it.
duskwuff•5m ago
You did, in fact, read a different story. You're thinking of the story told in the books by Brian Herbert and KJA - which were a distinctly pulpier take on the Dune universe than Frank Herbert's.
joeblubaugh•4m ago
I think you read a lot of books that are post-2000. IMO the original 4 or 5 books imply strongly that it’s man v man, not man v machine
wyager•21m ago
One of the few sci-fi storylines that doesn't now feel hopelessly dated or anachronistic!
antihipocrat•21m ago
At the end of the page is this paragraph:

Another, more subtle justification for the Butlerian Jihad is also found in Frank Herbert's original novels, specifically Heidegger's thesis that the use of technology trains humans to think like machines. The problem is that machines are deterministic; thus, training people to be machines is self-limiting.

I wonder whether Heidegger would consider the probabilistic nature of LLMs as having a positive effect on human thought.

chr15m•5m ago
Although LLMs are not deterministic in normal operation (because of the temperature values used) they are still strongly biased in their outputs. Bias in their outputs is literally how they function.

So you get a different type of conformism where people who interact with LLMs a lot are going to be influenced towards the median, as encoded in those token probability look up tables.

The effect is basically the same as what Heidegger and Illich were worried about, and I think we're seeing it happen already everywhere.

A solution(?) is to try to be your true weird authentic self when you act in the world, rather than bending your words and behaviours to the machine and LLM probability shape.

ChrisArchitect•8m ago
A related discussion from June,

Dune's Butlerian Jihad and the Future of AI

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48353670

Alan's conservative countdown to AGI: 99%

https://lifearchitect.ai/agi/
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https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad
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