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The Unsustainability of Moore's Law

https://bzolang.blog/p/the-unsustainability-of-moores-law
66•shadyboi•6h ago

Comments

jama211•4h ago
Moore’s law has been unsustainable for 20 years, I remember Pentium 4’s with 4ghz. But that hasn’t seemed to matter in terms of real day to day performance improvements. This article makes some great points about the scaling cost and reduced market opportunity for there to be more than 2 or 3 makers in the market, but that’s a trend we’ve seen in every market in the world, to be honest I’m surprised it took this long to get there.

As interesting as this breakdown of the current state of things is, it doesn’t tell us much we didn’t know or predict much about the future, and that’s the thing I most wanted to hear from an expert article on the subject, even if we can take it with a large pinch of salt.

WillAdams•18m ago
The corollary is Wirth's Law:

>software is getting slower more rapidly than hardware is becoming faster.

>Wirth attributed the saying to Martin Reiser, who in the preface to his book on the Oberon System wrote: "The hope is that the progress in hardware will cure all software ills. However, a critical observer may observe that software manages to outgrow hardware in size and sluggishness."

I wish that there would be more instances of developments like to Mac OS X 10.6, where rather than new features, the software was simply optimized for a given CPU architecture, and the focus was on improving performance.

CalChris•4h ago

  Roughly every two years, the density of transistors that can be fit onto a silicon chip doubles.
No. Moore's law is not about density. It's just about the number of transistors on a chip. Yes, density increases but so does die size. Anyways, in Moore's own word:

  The complexity for minimum component costs has increased at a rate of roughly a factor of two per year.
http://cva.stanford.edu/classes/cs99s/papers/moore-crammingm...
flomo•3h ago
> Gordon Moore always emphasized that his “law” was fundamentally rooted in economics, not physics.

Effectively, it was always more of a "marketing law" than an engineering one. Semiconductor chips only had 18-36 months to reap big profits, so Intel tried to stay ahead of that curve.

Symmetry•2h ago
That's a common misconception. Moore's 1965 paper was about economics but when the phrase "Moore's Law was coined in 1975 it was referring to Dennard Scaling as a whole.

https://hopefullyintersting.blogspot.com/2019/03/what-is-moo...

ggm-at-algebras•4h ago
More parallelism. Less clock. More l1 cache per CPU and less disk stalls. Are there plenty of tricks in the sea, when clockspeed goes flat?

Dual ported TCAM memory isn't getting faster and we've got to 1,000,000 prefixes in the internet and ipv6 are 4 times bigger. Memory speed is a real issue.

on_the_train•3h ago
There are a lot of people working on all the mentioned problems - and on many many more.

Re garage invention: lithography is probably too big an issue for that. It's important to keep in mind that we're currently producing a lot of transistors with today's tech. Any alternative would have to match that (eg stamping technologies).

(I work on lithography optics)

kryptiskt•3h ago
An alternative doesn't have to match all capabilities of the current tech. It "only" has to be competitive in one niche, a la The Innovator's Dilemma. Then it can improve and scale from that beach head, like when CMOS went from low-power applications to world domination.
noelwelsh•3h ago
Current GPUs have a comparable number of transistors (92.2 billion in the current NVidia Blackwell according to https://chipsandcheese.com/p/blackwell-nvidias-massive-gpu) to the number of neurons in human brains (about 90 billion according to Wikipedia). Brains consume less energy and do more, though transistors beat them on density. This suggests there are alternative pathways to performing computation that will scale better.
jojobas•3h ago
It takes many transistors to replicate a single neuron, they work very differently in terms of speed, there is no direct comparison.
noelwelsh•2h ago
Let me restate. The article is musing about medium terms difficulties on the current pathway for producing computation. I'm musing that perhaps we are on the wrong pathway for producing computation.
BriggyDwiggs42•2h ago
This only applies to functions of the brain which we wish to replicate on computers, not to those computers already outperform us on.
noelwelsh•1h ago
Agreed.
mettamage•3h ago
Is there also a law for how much more difficult it becomes to sustain Moore's law?

Ultimately, there's a cap. For as far as I know, the universe is finite.

mandmandam•3h ago
> as far as I know, the universe is finite.

I don't think we know that. We don't even know how big the universe really is - we can only see so far. All we have is a best guess.

There may also be a multiverse out there (or right beside us).

And, creating universes might be a thing.

... I don't expect Moore's law to hold for ever either, but I don't believe in creating unnecessary caps.

matthewdgreen•3h ago
I think you could very easily give a cap that hinges on our current understanding of basic physical limitations, and it would arrive surprisingly soon.
mandmandam•3h ago
That's the thing about Moore's law - it has assumed from the beginning that our 'current understanding of basic physical limitations' is incomplete, and been proven correct on that front many times over.
adrianN•2h ago
Our understanding of basic physical limits seems reasonably good and hasn't changed for a couple of generations. Our understanding of engineering limitations on the other hand is not so good and subject to frequent change.
Teever•2h ago
I'm not sure I follow. can you elaborate on that?

As I understand it Moore's Law doesn't address any sort of fundamental physical limitations other than perhaps an absolutely limit in terms of some fundamental limit on the smallness of an object, it's just an observation of the doubling of transistor density over a consistent period of time.

It seems more like an economical or social observation than a physical one to me.

layer8•1h ago
In contexts like these, “universe” means the observable universe, which is finite in size. Also, creating universes (in the usual models) conserves energy, so you don’t actually gain anything by that.
Symmetry•2h ago
Landuaer's principle govern's how efficient computation can be, but we might have to transition to something other than transistors to hit that limit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle

kristianp•2h ago
> Roughly every five years, the cost to build a factory for making such chips doubles, and the number of companies that can do it halves.

So we may have Apple and NVidia as the only ones that can afford to build a fab. Edit, correction, Microsoft is the current number 2 company by market cap.

mepian•1h ago
They can't afford to tank their margins like that, investors would be rather unhappy.
Symmetry•2h ago
> In a transistor, the voltage of the gate lying on top of the channel controls the conductivity of the channel beneath it, either creating an insulator or “depletion region”, or leaving the silicon naturally conductive.

That's... not how this works at all. Eventually the depletion region where the positive or negative charge carriers (for p or n doped silicon) deplete far enough and then at the threshold voltage inversion happens when the opposite sort of charge carrier start to accumulate along the oxide and allow conduction. By surrounding the channel there's less space for a depletion region and so inversion happens at lower voltages, leading to higher performance. Same as people used to do with silicon on oxide.

The Wikipedia article has nice diagrams:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSFET

avereveard•2h ago
> Roughly every two years, the density of transistors that can be fit onto a silicon chip doubles. This is Moore’s Law.

that... isn't the moore law, it is about count / complexity, not density. and larger chips are a valid way to fullfill it.

https://hasler.ece.gatech.edu/Published_papers/Technology_ov...

https://www.eng.auburn.edu/~agrawvd/COURSE/E7770_Spr07/READ/...

layer8•1h ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44412083
avereveard•13m ago
even if it were, that isn't about transistor density, but power density, which is not the same as

> the density of transistors that can be fit onto a silicon chip doubles

the whole article takes off from a flawed and fantasious misinterpretation and argue against that self created windmill

b0a04gl•2h ago
the law delivered enough headroom that systems moved on. once compute got cheap to rent and scale ,there was less pressure to push frequency or density every cycle. so focus shifted. the gains kept coming ,just not in the same shape.
frognumber•1h ago
> Another possibility that has long been on my personal list of “future articles to write” is that the future of computing may look more like used cars. If there is little meaningful difference between a chip manufactured in 2035 and a chip from 2065, then buying a still-functional 30-year-old computer may be a much better deal than it is today. If there is less of a need to buy a new computer every few years, then investing a larger amount upfront may make sense – buying a $10,000 computer rather than a $1,000 computer, and just keeping it for much longer or reselling it later for an upgraded model.

This seems improbable.

50-year-old technology works because 50 years ago, transistors were micron-scale.

Nanometer-scale nodes wear out much more quickly. Modern GPUs have a rated lifespan in the 3-7 year range, depending on usage.

One of my concerns is we're reaching a point where the loss of a fab due to a crisis -- war, natural disaster, etc. -- may cause systemic collapse. You can plot lifespan of chips versus time to bring a new fab online. Those lines are just around the crossing point; modern electronics would start to fail before we could produce more.

skissane•1h ago
> Nanometer-scale nodes wear out much more quickly. Modern GPUs have a rated lifespan in the 3-7 year range, depending on usage.

I recently bought a new MacBook, my previous one having lasted me for over 10 years. The big thing that pushed me to finally upgrade wasn’t hardware (which as far as I could tell had no major issues), it was the fact that it couldn’t run latest macOS, and software support for the old version it could run was increasingly going away.

The battery and keyboard had been replaced, but (AFAIK) the logic board was still the original

chii•46m ago
> it couldn’t run latest macOS, and software support for the old version it could run was increasingly going away.

which is very annoying, as none of the newer OS versions has anything that warrants dumping hardware to buy brand new to run them with! With the exception of security upgrades, which i find dubious for a company to stop creating (as they would need to do so for their newer OS versions just as well, so the cost of maintaining security patches ought to not be much, if at all), it is definitely more likely to be a dark-pattern to force hardware upgrades.

speed_spread•33m ago
That's not just a dark pattern, it's the logical conclusion to Apple's entire business model. It's what you get for relying on the proprietary OS supplied by a hardware manufacturer. It's why Asahi Linux is so important.
scarface_74•5m ago
And then he still couldn’t use the third party software he says he depends on…
scarface_74•5m ago
You mean besides the fact that they completely transitioned to a new processors and some of the new features use hardware that is only available on their ARM chips?

Also he said that software from third parties also don’t support the older OS so even if Apple did provide security updates, he would still be in the same place.

sapiogram•1h ago
> Modern GPUs have a rated lifespan in the 3-7 year range, depending on usage.

That statement absolutely needs a source. Is "usage" 100% load 24/7? What is the failure rate after 7 years? Are the failures unrepairable, i.e. not just a broken fan?

orefalo•1h ago
factor in power usage reduction, and it still works
sys_64738•36m ago
Has "Moore's Law" been consistent since it reared its head, or has it been constantly tweaked to suit the narrative of it still being correct?
WillAdams•21m ago
It was good up until 1975:

https://www.livescience.com/technology/electronics/what-is-m...

since then, there have been some adjustments, but it still holds as a prediction of a general trend since as noted in that article:

>One reason for the success of Moore’s prediction is that it became a guide — almost a target — for chip designers.

but as noted:

>The days when we could double the number of transistors on a chip every two years are far behind us. However, Moore’s Law has acted as a pacesetter in a decades-long race to create chips that perform more complicated tasks quicker, especially as our expectations for continual progress continue.

LegionMammal978•23m ago
I've always wondered what the classic Moore's-law curve looks like when you take the FLOPs per constant dollar, totaled across the whole R&D/manufacturing/operation process. Sure, you can keep investing more and more into increasingly cutting-edge or power-hungry processes, but at some point it isn't worth the money, and money will generally be the ultimate limiting factor. Not that we'll ever really get these numbers, alas.

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