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Hidden interface controls are affecting usability

https://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/july-august-2025/stop-hiding-my-controls-hidden-interface-controls-are-affecting-usability
354•cxr•8h ago•197 comments

Serving 200M requests per day with a CGI-bin

https://simonwillison.net/2025/Jul/5/cgi-bin-performance/
109•mustache_kimono•7h ago•68 comments

Local-first software (2019)

https://www.inkandswitch.com/essay/local-first/
661•gasull•16h ago•216 comments

July 5, 1687: When Newton Explained Why You Don't Float Away

https://multiverseemployeehandbook.com/blog/when-newton-explained-why-you-dont-float-away/
31•TMEHpodcast•3h ago•13 comments

Eastern Baltic cod grow much smaller than they did due to overfishing

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/these-cod-have-been-shrinking-dramatically-for-decades-now-scientists-say-theyve-solved-the-mystery-180986920/
173•littlexsparkee•12h ago•55 comments

Are We the Baddies?

https://geohot.github.io//blog/jekyll/update/2025/07/05/are-we-the-baddies.html
123•AndrewSwift•1h ago•49 comments

What a Hacker Stole from Me

https://mynoise.net/blog.php
132•wonger_•9h ago•31 comments

How to Network as an Introvert

https://aginfer.bearblog.dev/how-to-network-as-an-introvert/
149•agcat•10h ago•59 comments

Injection Rejection (2006)

https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Injection_Rejection
31•dontTREATonme•4h ago•13 comments

Development of a transputer ISA board

https://nanochess.org/transputer_board.html
9•nanochess•2d ago•1 comments

Show HN: News Alert ,Real-time global news monitoring with keyword alerts

https://newsalert.im/
10•zxcholmes•4h ago•1 comments

Europe's first geostationary sounder satellite is launched

https://www.eumetsat.int/europes-first-geostationary-sounder-satellite-launched
181•diggan•17h ago•39 comments

ClojureScript from First Principles [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An-ImWVppNQ
52•puredanger•3d ago•5 comments

Volvo delivers 5,000th electric semi with little fanfare

https://electrek.co/2025/06/29/volvo-delivers-5000th-electric-semi-with-little-fanfare-sending-a-big-message/
82•JumpCrisscross•5h ago•21 comments

Optimizing Tool Selection for LLM Workflows with Differentiable Programming

https://viksit.substack.com/p/optimizing-tool-selection-for-llm
80•viksit•10h ago•33 comments

macOS Icon History

https://basicappleguy.com/basicappleblog/macos-icon-history
174•ksec•16h ago•70 comments

The ancient invention that ignited game play (2021)

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210318-the-ancient-invention-that-ignited-game-play
3•bearsyankees•2d ago•0 comments

X-Clacks-Overhead

https://xclacksoverhead.org/home/about
220•weinzierl•4d ago•51 comments

Fast Code Is Easy. Measuring It Is Hard

https://www.architect.co/posts/how-fast-is-it-really
25•auc•3d ago•9 comments

Speeding up PostgreSQL dump/restore snapshots

https://xata.io/blog/behind-the-scenes-speeding-up-pgstream-snapshots-for-postgresql
108•tudorg•14h ago•22 comments

Game publishers respond to Stop Killing Games claim it curtails developer choice

https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/european-game-publisher-group-responds-to-stop-killing-games-claims-these-proposals-would-curtail-developer-choice/
25•riffraff•2h ago•29 comments

Techno-Feudalism and the Rise of AGI: A Future Without Economic Rights?

https://arxiv.org/abs/2503.14283
121•lexandstuff•10h ago•103 comments

Colombia seizes first unmanned narco-submarine with Starlink antenna

https://www.france24.com/en/americas/20250702-colombia-narco-submarine-starlink
67•thm•4h ago•53 comments

The Force-Feeding of AI on an Unwilling Public

https://www.honest-broker.com/p/the-force-feeding-of-ai-on-an-unwilling
11•imartin2k•1h ago•1 comments

Atomic "Bomb" Ring from KiX (1947)

https://toytales.ca/atomic-bomb-ring-from-kix-1947/
72•gscott•3d ago•20 comments

Laser-wielding device is like an anti-aircraft system for mosquitoes

https://newatlas.com/around-the-home/photon-matrix-laser-mosquitoes/
17•simonebrunozzi•1h ago•13 comments

Show HN: a community for collaborating on sideprojects

https://relentlessly.no/
15•0dKD•3d ago•8 comments

Yet Another Zip Trick

https://hackarcana.com/article/yet-another-zip-trick
42•todsacerdoti•3d ago•11 comments

Chasing Hobbies over Achievement Boosts Happiness (2023)

https://neurosciencenews.com/hedonism-happiness-achievement-23923/
19•gscott•3h ago•4 comments

Why the simplest desktop agent abstraction wins

https://www.bytebot.ai/blog/designing-bytebot-why-the-simplest-desktop-agent-abstraction-wins
16•atupem•2d ago•3 comments
Open in hackernews

Hidden interface controls are affecting usability

https://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/july-august-2025/stop-hiding-my-controls-hidden-interface-controls-are-affecting-usability
354•cxr•8h ago

Comments

crtasm•7h ago
Fig.1 doesn't look like a drop-down menu - is the term really used for that style?
zahlman•7h ago
The only thing that seems wrong about it to me is that it's above the point where the user clicked rather than underneath; and that's only because that point is near the bottom of the screen.
nsriv•7h ago
I have had to explain it as such while teaching kids to use Zoom over the pandemic, and yeah one of the first things I got was "it's a drop up menu!"
chrismorgan•4h ago
The term “popover” has been gaining popularity in the last decade or so, as a superset of dropdowns. HTML adopting the term a couple of years ago has helped with this.
BLKNSLVR•7h ago
Only tangentially related, and a seemingly lost old-man battle: stop hiding my scrollbar.

Interesting article. Some points I didn't quite agree entirely with. There's a cost and practically limitation to some things (like a physical knob in a car for zooming in and out on a map - although that was probably just an example of intuitive use).

I just recently switched a toggle on a newly installed app that did the opposite of what it was labelled - I thought the label represented the current state, but it represented the state it would switch to if toggled. It became obvious once changed, but that seems the least helpful execution.

thangalin•6h ago
> stop hiding my scrollbar

https://superuser.com/a/1720363

Use Firefox?

panzi•3h ago
Stop making my scrollbar so impossible thin, Firefox!
cube00•3h ago
Gnome enjoys the impossibly thin scrollbars too even when you do manage to find them.
Kwpolska•34m ago
You might be able to set a different scrollbar style in about:config.
paleotrope•6h ago
I can't recall the app but it was a similar toggle with a label, when you flipped the toggle the label lit up green indicating it was turned on. But the default state was off but how would you know?
BLKNSLVR•3h ago
The green / red is at least a half decent indicator (questionable for the colour blind folks though), but the current trend of very slightly different shades of grey is the pinnacle of utterly fucking stupid design; perfect for a non-interactive set piece in a gallery, just dumb for use for by human beings.
cgriswald•3h ago
I have to believe in the case of cookie banners it is intentional.
IggleSniggle•5h ago
Right! If you want it to denote an action, you need to include the verb: "TURN ON" would be entirely clear. It's even clear if you sometimes DO want to show state / not a button "IS ON" is also perfectly clear. There's only a few that might he confused when the verb is shown, like "INCREASE," although I would have to work a little to imagine the UI where it's not clear whether the button is showing the verb or noun.
TylerE•5h ago
One of my big beefs with modern UI is two-state controls where it's impossible to determine what the current state actually is. Like a button that says "Music Off" where it's unclear if that means the music is CURRENTLY off, or if clicking the button turns it off.
jagged-chisel•4h ago
Similarly, I can’t tell which state the control is in until I touch it.
khaki54•1h ago
Yep the best example. Especially if the result is not immediately obvious. Am I commanding "system on" or are you telling me "system on"
foo42•35m ago
you can get the same issue with icons too. The one that gives me anxiety is the microphone with a line through on a button. I _am_ muted or I should click to _mute_. If my kids are arguing in the background and it's an important call it can feel like a high stakes thing to get wrong and often times it only becomes clear what state I'm in by toggling a few times. Does the icon change to a mic without a line when I click or does the previously shown mic with a line now get coloured in, what does _that_ mean?
userbinator•5h ago
I hate toggle switches IRL too. They are just as ambiguous there. Checkboxes and pushed-in buttons are far clearer, but have unfortunately been sacrificed at the altar of "modernity".
wpm•1h ago
Toggle switches in real life can and often are labeled. A toggle pointing to OFF means it’s off. Moving it to on turns it on.
Nevermark•31m ago
And a toggle colored/glowing red & green, for off & on, is clear.

Boggles my mind how badly many interfaces manage to be.

rasur•16m ago
Unless you're red/green colour-blind, of course ;)
msephton•5h ago
In macOS you can have the scroll bar always on, globally (using System Settings) or per-app (using Terminal command)
porker•1h ago
But can I make them wider? I don't have the precision to hit something that narrow.

(Most of the time I use the scroll gesture on the trackpad to get round this)

wpm•1h ago
They’re still too thin, and they look awful to boot.
rkagerer•4h ago
And please support PgUp and PgDn while you're at it.
hn111•1h ago
on MacOS you can use Fn+Up and Fn+Down
6510•4h ago
In the 90's I had this vision that the menu and the scrollbar should be physically separated from the screen.

If you have (next to your monitor on the left side) a narrow physical display with menu entries in it. You get 4 things for "free", the user will expect there to be menu entries, the developer will understand the expectations to have menu entries, there is limited room to go nuts with the layout or shape of the menu and last but most funny, you won't feel part of the screen has been taken away from you.

The physical scrollbar should be a transparent tube with a ball (or ideally a bubble) floating in it.

Usage could be moving the pointer out of the screen. The scrollbar led goes on and you can hold the button to move the page. When using the menu the pointer [also] vanishes and the menu entry at that height is highlighted. (much better usability) Moving the mouse up or down highlights the above or below entries, if there are a lot of entries it may also scroll. It may be a touch screen but the most usuable would be a vertical row of 5 extra wide (3 fingers) keyboard buttons on the left with the top 4 corresponding to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th menu entry and the 5th one for page down. (scrolling down 4 entries) Ideally these get some kind of texturing so that one can feel which button one is touching.

This way knowledge in the world can smoothly migrate to knowledge in the head until eventually you can smash out combinations of M keys in fractions of a second without looking at the screen or the keyboard. The menu displayed is always in focus, you don't have to examine the view port to use it. Having a row of horizontal F keys is a design fiasco. Instinctively bashing the full row of those might come natural after learning to type, then learning to type numbers, then symbols and only if you frequently use applications that have useful F key functionality. I only really know F5 and F11 but I cant smash them blindly as I pretty much never use them. I just tried F1 in firefox and no help documentation showed up... I think that was what it was suppose to do? Not even sure anymore.

Having the antenna menu (file, edit, etc) at the top of the viewport is also ugly. For example, smashing the second then the top M key could easily become second nature. CTRL+Z is fine of course but it aint knowledge in the world. Does anyone actually use ALT+E+U for undo? Try it on the CTRL+F input area. It's just funny. Type something in the address bar then compare ALT+E+U with using the Edit menu.

A separate display would take many of these "design" privileges away from the clowns.

(note: I think it is ALT+E+U as the Dutch layout is forced on me by windos. Edit is called Bewerken and the shortcut is ALT+W!?! ALT+E does nothing.)

JadeNB•4h ago
> The physical scrollbar should be a transparent tube with a ball (or ideally a bubble) floating in it.

Oh, god, the Touch Bar was already a frustrating enough piece of UI, don't give Apple more ideas.

DidYaWipe•3h ago
Amen. Good riddance to Jony Ive and his embarrassing emoji bar.
6510•2h ago
touch screens cant match physical buttons. This one is extra funny by taking keys away and giving you unknown things in return. Finally one can once again look down at the keys wondering which is which. After moving your hands away.

If I was on the design team they would have fired me for screaming at everyone. Screaming is good UI tho.

Nevermark•13m ago
> If I was on the design team they would have fired me for screaming at everyone.

Oh man. I really do start screaming sometimes.

At user interfaces, too often. At unbelievably bad product choices of all kinds.

The simpler & dumber the issue the louder I get.

Someone creates a quality flat tine garden rake with about 40 tines, and charges accordingly. The person who manages stickers, because everything needs stickers, creates huge stickers they glue across all the tines. You try to peel it off and now you have over two dozen tines with long streaks of shredded paper glued hard to them. The new quality rake looks awful from the first moment of use.

Because removable stickers probably cost a fraction of a cent more. Or they just didn’t think that maybe people remove stickers.

Screaming is an appropriate place to put the high spin WTF-a-tons that might otherwise feed the universe’s dark energy.

And that, dear reader, is my theory of dark energy.

swiftcoder•59m ago
I would have been fine with the Touch Bar, if they hadn't sacrificed the function/escape keys to put it there.

It enabled a neat set of affordances, but not worth losing core functionality over.

jama211•3h ago
No one wants or needs an entire seperate device just to handle scrollbars that work absolutely fine currently…
6510•3h ago
It was just a vision from long ago. But okay, for sake of argument. It doesn't need to be ultra hd in a billion colors, it can go on the bezel and be screen height so that you don't have to aim to hit it. No need for it to glow intensely, perhaps not at all, perhaps simple single color LCD would do the trick.

I don't agree scrollbars work fine, they use to work fine, now they are to tiny to click on.

There also was/is the issue where the view port width needs to be adjusted when page state grows beyond the screen height then word wrap makes the content shift down. Is the solution to have one so tiny it is hard to use or should one always display a scrollbar? The one outside the screen is always there :)

I like things that do only one thing, do it well and in a simple way.

You could also go the other direction and put everything on the screen. Huawei just made a horrifying laptop where the keyboard is also a screen.

Animats•2h ago
> In the 90's I had this vision that the menu and the scrollbar should be physically separated from the screen.

Buttons alongside, above, or below screens appear now and then. Some early terminals had them. Now that seems to be confined to aircraft cockpits and gasoline dispensers.

Findecanor•1h ago
BTW. The technical term for such a button is a "soft key", vs a "hard key" that has a single function.
analog31•4h ago
Yeah, a hidden scroll bar makes a UI unusable if you prefer a touch screen, as I do.
panzi•3h ago
There was such a confusing toggle at the ticket machines for the train here in Austria many years ago. It was for immediately validating your ticket, which is a potentially costly mistake.

About the scroll bars: Also stop making them so thin that I have to have FPS skills to hit them! Looking at you, Firefox! (And possibly what standard CSS allows?) Yeah, I can scroll, but horizontally the scrollbar would be more convenient than pressing shift with my other hand.

jama211•3h ago
I’ve never known until this moment that shift makes you scroll horizontally, because I’ve always either used a mouse with horizontal scrolling built into the scroll wheel, or a touchpad.
anjel•21m ago
Firefox nonobviousity: Type in about:config in your address bar Search for widget.non-native-theme.scrollbar.size.override Edit it to whatever number you want You can also edit widget.non-native-theme.scrollbar.style to change the shape of it, set it to 4 for a nice chonk rectangle Finally, turn on “Always show scrollbars” in the normal settings window about:settings if you want them always on.
725686•2h ago
I absolutely despise switches. I'm also constantly asking myself if the label represents the current state or the state it would switch to.
qingcharles•8m ago
And then the second factor: has this change been applied immediately or do I need to scroll around to find a SAVE CHANGES button?
Animats•2h ago
> I thought the label represented the current state, but it represented the state it would switch to if toggled. It became obvious once changed, but that seems the least helpful execution.

Such ambiguous switches are often associated with "opt out" misfeatures.

chrisandchris•41m ago
Reading through the responses of your comment, I came to the conclusion that the topic is on point. There are many complains about people missing things (please add ...), and people responding with a solution because it's already there - just hidden.
jongjong•7h ago
Something which drives me mad is how modern operating systems (both desktop and mobile) keep hiding file system paths. There used to be a setting on OSX which let you show the address bar in Finder (though it wasn't default) but nowadays it seems to be impossible (unless you get some third-party extension) and I have to resort to using the terminal. It's bonkers.

It makes it impossible to locate files later when I need to move or transfer them.

BLKNSLVR•7h ago
I have this issue when links are shared directly to a file on SharePoint.

It's often more useful to share the directory it's in rather that the file itself. MS Office dies have a way to get that information, but you have to look for it.

duskwuff•6h ago
Unfortunately it's not exposed in the UI, but:

    defaults write com.apple.Finder _FXShowPosixPathInTitle -bool true
internet2000•6h ago
It's still there. Finder → Show menu → Show Path Bar
nsriv•7h ago
Very slightly unrelated, but this trend is one of the reasons I went Android after the iPhone removed the home button. I think it became meaningfully harder to explain interactions to older users in my family and just when they got the hang of "force touch" it also went away.

First thing I do on new Pixel phones is enable 3 button navigation, but lately that's also falling out of favor in UI terms, with apps assuming bottom navigation bar and not accounting for the larger spacing of 3 button nav and putting content or text behind it.

RachelF•6h ago
Similarly the disappearing menu items in common software.

Take a simple example: Open a read-only file in MS Word. There is no option to save? Where's it gone? Why can I edit but not save the file?

A much better user experience would be to enable and not hide the Save option. When the user tries to save, tell them "I cannot save this file because of blah" and then tell them what they can do to fix it.

cosmic_cheese•3h ago
The Mac HIG specifies exactly this: don’t hide temporarily unavailable options, disable them. Disabling communicates to the user the relationships between data, state, etc and adds discoverability.
int_19h•38m ago
This has been the norm on every desktop. But lately I don't think app designers know what "HIG" even is. Everything is web (or tries real hard to look like it even when it's native apps...), which is to say, everything is broken.
zhivota•5h ago
I am the same, long time Android user and when I borrow my wife's iPhone it is an exercise in frustration. Interactions are hidden, not intuitive, or just plain missing.

Now that Pixel cameras outclass iPhone cameras, and even Samsung is on par, there is really no reason to ever switch to the Apple ecosystem anymore IMO.

Aeolun•5h ago
> there is really no reason to ever switch to the Apple ecosystem anymore IMO

Not having anything to do with Google is a pretty good reason I think.

sheiyei•23m ago
The best one, unfortunately it's a terrible user experience for a high cost.
SoftTalker•5h ago
> [iPhone] Interactions are hidden, not intuitive, or just plain missing.

And they aren't even consistent from app to app. That's perhaps the most frustrating thing.

cosmic_cheese•3h ago
That’s thanks to third party devs, not Apple. If you look primarily at proper native UIKit/SwiftUI apps, there’s a lot more consistency, but there’s a lot of cross platform lowest common denominator garbage out there that pays zero mind to platform conventions.

You see this under macOS, too. A lot of Electron apps for instance replace the window manager’s standard titlebar with some custom thing that doesn’t implement chunks of the standard titlebar’s functionality. It’s frustrating.

jama211•3h ago
If you were a long time iphone user you’d say the same thing about android. It’s just about what you’re used to dude.
matsemann•58m ago
Not really. In Android there will be a back button, on iPhone you're supposed to know to swipe in some direction. On Android there will be a button to show running apps, on iPhone you will need to swipe correctly from somewhere. When 3d touch existed I think there were like 11 different ways of pressing the home button depending on context.
int_19h•33m ago
Android by default is also swipe swipe swipe. You need to tweak the settings to get the older and saner 3-button setup back.

As far as the Back button, on iOS the norm is for it to be present somewhere in the UI of the app in any context where there's a "back" to go to. For cross-app switching, there's an OS-supplied Back button in the status bar on top, again, showing only when it's relevant (admittedly it's very tiny and easy to miss). Having two might sound complicated but tbh I rather prefer it that way because in Android it can sometimes be confusing as to what the single global Back button will do in any given case (i.e. whether it'll navigate within the current app, or switch you back to the previous app).

Kwpolska•21m ago
Modern Android defaults to the same random swipe experience as iOS. But you can go back to the much more usable three-button setup.
strogonoff•3h ago
I am firmly in the “key UI elements should be visible” camp. I also agree that Apple violates that rule occasionally.

However, I think they do a decent job at resisting it in general, and specifically I disagree that removing the home button constitutes hiding an UI element. I see it as a change in interaction, after which the gesture is no longer “press” but “swipe” and the UI element is not a button but edge of the screen itself. It is debatable whether it is intuitive or better in general, but I personally think it is rather similar to double-clicking an icon to launch an app, or right-clicking to invoke a context menu: neither have any visual cues, both are used all the time for some pretty key functions, but as soon as it becomes an intuition it does not add friction.

You may say Apple is way too liberal in forcing new intuitions like that, and I would agree in some cases (like address bar drag on Safari!), but would disagree in case of the home button (they went with it and they firmly stuck with it, and they kept around a model with the button for a few more years until 2025).

Regarding explaining the lack of home button: on iOS, there is an accessibility feature that puts on your screen a small draggable circle, which when pressed displays a configurable selection of shortcuts—with text labels—including the home button and a bunch of other pretty useful switches. Believe it or not, I know people who kept this circle around specifically when hardware home button was a thing, because they did not want to wear out the only thing they saw as a moving part!

Jaxan•1h ago
I still have my iPhone with home button. That’s also a solution ;-)
int_19h•40m ago
I had the same story, which is why the last phone I got for my grandma was an iPhone SE (which still has the home button). This way, no matter where she ends up, there's this large and obvious thing that she can press to return back to the familiarity of the home screen.
baggy_trough•7h ago
Alan Dye in shambles.
zmmmmm•7h ago
I think the article overlooks that it is not really an accident that apps and operating systems are hiding all their user interface affordances. It's an antipattern to create lock in, and it tends to occur once a piece of software has reached what they consider saturation point in terms of growth where keeping existing users in is more important than attracting new ones. It so turns out that the vast majority of software we use is created by companies in exactly that position - Google, Apple, Microsoft, Meta etc.

It might seem counter intuitive that hiding your interface stops your users leaving. But it does it because it changes your basis of assumptions about what a device is and your relationship with it. It's not something you "use", but something you "know". They want you to feel inherently linked to it at an intuitive level such that leaving their ecosystem is like losing a part of yourself. Once you've been through the experience of discovering "wow, you have to swipe up from a corner in a totally unpredictable way to do an essential task on a phone", and you build into your world of assumptions that this is how phones are, the thought of moving to a new type of phone and learning all that again is terrifying. It's no surprise at all that all the major software vendors are doing this.

BLKNSLVR•7h ago
It's a double edged sword though in that it can discourage users from trying their interface.

Apple's interface shits me because it's all from that one button, and I can never remember how to get to settings because I use that interface so infrequently, so Android feels more natural. Ie. Android has done it's lock-in job, but Apple has done itself a disservice.

(Not entirely fair, I also dislike Apple for all the other same old argument reasons).

copperx•7h ago
Which button do you mean?
BLKNSLVR•6h ago
Yeah, that's how old my Apple knowledge is.

Another comment elsewhere on this page informed me that the universal button no longer exists.

userbinator•7h ago
I see nonprofit OSS projects doing it too, and wonder if they're just trendchasing without thinking. Firefox's aggravating redesigns fall under this category, as does Gnome and the like.
eddythompson80•6h ago
I think you picked a hypothesis and assumed it was true and ran with it.

Consider that all the following are true (despite their contradictions):

- "Bloated busy interface" is a common complaint of some of Google, Apple, Microsoft, and Meta. people here share a blank vscode canvas and complain about how busy the interface is compared to their 0-interface vim setup.

- flat design and minimalism are/were in fashion (have been for few years now).

- /r/unixporn and most linux people online who "rice" their linux distros do so by hiding all controls from apps because minimalism is in fashion

- Have you tried GNOME recently?

Minimal interface where most controls are hidden is a certain look that some people prefer. Plenty of people prefer to "hide the noise" and if they need something, they are perfectly capable to look it up. It's not like digging in manuals is the only option

thaumasiotes•6h ago
> Have you tried GNOME recently?

God, no. I switched to xfce when GNOME decided that they needed to compete with Unity by copying whatever it did, no matter how loudly their entire user base complained.

Why would I try GNOME again?

leakycap•2h ago
> Why would I try GNOME again?

It is widely used, the default DE in many installs, and it can be handy to be familiar with, for starters.

jterrys•6h ago
UIs tend to have a universality with how people structure their environments. Minimalism is super hot outside of software design too. Millennial Gray is a cliche for a reason. Frutiger Aero wasn't just limited to technology. JLo's debut single is pretty cool about this aesthetic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYfkl-HXfuU
joe_the_user•5h ago
I think you picked a hypothesis and assumed it was true and ran with it.

The tone of your post and especially this phrase is inappropriate imo. The GP's comment is plausible. You're welcome to make a counter-argument but you seem to be claiming without evidence their was no thinking behind their post.

zmmmmm•5h ago
I agree with you it's very fashion driven and hence you see it in all kinds of places outside the core drivers of it. But my argument is, those fashions themselves are driven by the major players deciding to do this for less than honorable reasons.

I do think it's likely more passive than active. People at Google aren't deviously plotting to hide buttons from the user. But what is happening is that when these designs get reviewed, nobody is pushing back - when someone says "but how will the user know to do that?", it doesn't get listend to. Instead the people responsible are signing off on it saying, "it's OK, they will just learn that, once they get to know it, then it will be OK". It's all passive but it's based on an implicit assumption that uses are staying around and optimising for the ones that do, making it harder for the ones that want to come and go or stop in temporarily.

Once three or four big companies start doing it, everybody else cargo cults it and before you know it, it looks like fashion and GNOME is doing it too.

cosmic_cheese•3h ago
If I had to pin most of this on anything I’d pick two:

- Dribbble-driven development, where the goal is to make apps look good in screenshots with little bearing to their practical usability

- The massive influx of designers from other disciplines (print, etc) into UI design, who are great at making things look nice but don’t carry many of the skills necessary to design effective UIs

Being a good UI designer is seeking out existing usability research, conducting new research to fill in the gaps, and understanding the limits of the target platform on top of having a good footing in the fundamentals. The role is part artist, part scientist, and part engineer. It’s knowing when to put ego aside and admit that the beautiful design you just came with isn’t usable enough to ship. It’s not just a sense for aesthetics and the ability to wield Photoshop or Figma or whatever well.

This is not what hiring selects for, though, and that’s reflected in the precipitous fall in quality of software design in the past ~15 years.

troupo•45m ago
> Dribbble-driven development,

I've been calling modern designers "dribbble-raised" for a while now precisely for these reasons. Glad to see I'm not the only one.

fiddlerwoaroof•7h ago
I sort of disagree with this: once I’ve internalized the gestures, I really appreciate the lack of UI for them. It’s like vim and emacs: the sparse ui creates a steeper learning curve but becomes a feature once you’ve learned the tool
layer8•6h ago
It’s one thing to learn a few gestures that work consistently across the platform. But every app tends to do its own thing, and even if you are a power user of the respective apps and learn their idiosyncrasies, it’s still annoying that they all work in slightly or sometimes drastically different ways, and that they aren’t consistent in terms of discoverability.
bbarn•5h ago
That was the point of the article. Users with knowledge of how it works can do it fine, but new users can't.

Your average dev who's never used vim or vi will start frustrated by default.

fiddlerwoaroof•5h ago
My point is that no one is a new user forever and so I think we need to come up with a better solution than UI taking up screen space for things people end up doing via shortcuts. Menus and command palettes are great for this because they are mostly invisible.

The other important thing is learning to fit into the conventions of the platform: for example, Cocoa apps on Mac all inherit a bunch of consistent behaviors.

netsharc•4h ago
The default should be a clutter for new users, and the customization option should be make the UI customizable by hiding things you won't ever touch because you use shortcut keys.

The other way around is yeah, hostile. But of course it looks sleek and minimalistic!

On the early iPhones, they had to figure out how to move icons around. Their answer was, hold one of the icons down until they all start wiggling, that means you've entered the "rearrange icons" mode... Geezus christ, how intuitive. Having a button on screen, which when pressed offers a description of the mode you've entered would be user-friendly, but I get the lack of appeal, for me it would feel so clunky and like it's UI design from the 80's.

chrismorgan•4h ago
I started out with gVim with menu and toolbars. I quickly removed toolbars and after a while longer menus, as I didn't need them any more, they had taught me—though I seem to recall temporarily setting guioptions+=m from time to time for a while longer, when I couldn’t remember a thing. I think I had also added some custom menu items.

Being a modal editor probably makes removing all persistent chrome more feasible.

jonas21•7h ago
> If you want to lock the door, then the hidden control problem becomes evident... to lock the door, I must know that the hidden control to lock is the pound key. To make matters worse, it's not a simple press of the pound key. It's a press of the pound key for a full five seconds in order to activate the lock sequence. The combination of the long temporal window and the hidden control makes locking the door nearly impossible, unless you are well acquainted with the system and its operation.

Isn't that kind of the point? You don't want people accidentally locking the door, but if it's your door, it's easy enough to remember how to do it.

danparsonson•6h ago
Then put the lock operation on the fingerprint reader too. Doesn't that make more sense?
kulahan•7h ago
This is easily one of the most frustrating parts of the user experience on Discord. So many buttons are hidden until you mouse over them, which absolutely drives me UP A WALL. I really hope this trend discontinues.
temporallobe•7h ago
My car’s audio system seems to go out of its way to bury sound settings (bass, treble, balance, etc.) in as many nested menus as possible. And when you do finally find the settings, they are greyed out. I had to actually watch a youtube video to figure out that they are configured at the individual source level. Super confusing and unintuitive, and especially egregious considering that this is in a vehicle you are DRIVING - confusion, distraction, and frustration are the last things you want drivers to experience.
pipe2devnull•6h ago
I would argue though you shouldn’t be messing with treble and bass settings while you are driving.
vel0city•6h ago
I fully agree with you on this. If the car is moving you shouldn't really do anything more than previous/next/volume. And of those they should be on the steering wheel.

You want to mess with your equalizer, do it when stopped. IDGAF if it's dozens of physical buttons and knobs and sliders or hidden in menus; you're supposed to be driving not mastering an audio file.

mook•6h ago
I imagine that makes having the settings be specific to each source even worse. How else are you going to adjust them for navigation instructions?

My car has something like that, but thankfully I have only needed to adjust volume, which can be done from the steering wheel…

hamburglar•6h ago
I used to drive a Camry where on the factory radio, bass and treble had individual knobs and you could adjust them without taking your eyes off the road. Oh, those were the days.
userbinator•51m ago
Some had a whole equalizer: https://hackaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/btcaraudio-v...
bluGill•5h ago
but I'm not driving - my wife is. Thus I should be able to mess with those settings
temporallobe•2h ago
Respectfully disagree. My point is that it should be easy and intuitive to do things like this while driving, just like anything else such as adjusting HVAC controls, operating turn signals, shifting gears, etc. Most major controls and operations should be tactile and easily understandable even if you have never driven that particular car before. I believe that drivers feel more distracted by modern vehicles’ UI/UX than ever before, and I rented a BMW last year that perfectly exemplifies this. It was a nightmare of unintuitive screens and menus just to do basic things - actively driving or not. It really turned me off to BMWs.
userbinator•7h ago
This is what happens when "designers" who are nothing more than artists take control of UI decisions. They want things to look "clean" at the expense of discoverability and forget that affordances make people learn.

Contrast this with something like an airplane cockpit, which while full of controls and assuming expert knowledge, still has them all labeled.

jama211•3h ago
Next you’ll be complaining that the taps in your house don’t have a label telling you that they need to be twisted and in what direction.

Phones aren’t 747’s, and guess what every normal person that goes into an airplane cockpit who isn’t a pilot is so overwhelmed by all the controls they wouldn’t know what anything did.

Interface designers know what they’re doing. They know what’s intuitive and what isn’t, and they’ve refined down to an art how to contain a complicated feature set in a relatively simple form factor.

The irony of people here with no design training that they could do a better job than any “so called designer” shows incredible levels of egotism and disrespect to a mature field of study.

Also demonstrably, people use their phones really quite well with very little training, that’s a modern miracle.

Stop shaking your fist at a cloud.

userbinator•1h ago
Interface designers know what they’re doing. They know what’s intuitive and what isn’t

No they don't. The article refutes your points entirely, as does everyone else here who has been confounded by puzzling interfaces.

WarOnPrivacy•6h ago

    The other day I was locked out of my car
    the key fob button wouldn't work

    Why didn't I just use my key to get in? 
    First, you need to know there is a hidden key inside the fob.
    Second, because there doesn't appear to be a keyhole on the car door,
    you also have to know that you need to disassemble a portion 
    of the car door handle to expose the keyhole.
Hiding critical car controls is hostile engineering. In this, it doesn't stand out much in the modern car experience.
julianlam•6h ago
This also happened to me in a rental. We drove it off the lot to our hotel a half-hour away before we discovered the remote was busted, with all of our possessions locked inside.

I did know that there must be a physical key (unless Tesla?), and the only way I found the keyhole was because a previous renter had scratched the doorknob to shit trying to access the very same keyhole.

jahewson•42m ago
I'm yet to drive a car with a doorknob but it sounds awesome.
jama211•3h ago
All of which you should know, and can be easily found with a quick google. The moment we got a car with no physical key my first question was “what’s the backup option and how does it work”.

Basic knowledge about the things you own isn’t hard. My god there is a lot of old man shakes fist at cloud in here.

raincole•56m ago
Knowing how to get around a stupid design doesn't make it any less stupid.
9dev•14m ago
The opposite take would be that there’s no need to shove something in the users face that they need less than once per year, but offer a more elaborate way to get there just in case.
sheiyei•29m ago
This is such an Apple user take. "Yes you can do that, but you're not supposed to so it's hidden behind so many menus that you can't find it except by accident and since I use it, I say sowwy to my phone every night before I go to sleep to make sure Apple doesn't get maddy mad at me"
WarOnPrivacy•6h ago
I drive a Toyota that is nearly old enough to run for US Senator. Every control in the car is visible, clearly labeled and is distinct to the touch - at all times. The action isn't impeded by routine activity or maintenance (ex:battery change).

Because it can be trivially duplicated, this is minimally capable engineering. Yet automakers everywhere lack even this level of competence. By reasonable measure, they are poor at their job.

staplers•6h ago

  Because it can be trivially duplicated
While I agree with your sentiment, designing and manufacturing custom molds for each knob and function (including premium versions) instead of just slapping a screen on the dash does have a cost.
marginalia_nu•6h ago
Has this cost risen?

Why is this so expensive it can't even be put into a premium car today when it used to be ubiquitous in even the cheapest hardware a few decades ago?

cortesoft•6h ago
No, but every cost cut is additional profit
const_cast•5h ago
Because most companies are ruthless penny-pinchers and over-optimizers. They're willing to burn dollars to save pennies. The reason is that they're trading things they can measure for things they can't.

Basically, if you remove the knobs you can save, say, 10 dollars on every vehicle. In return, you have made your car less attractive and will lose a small number of sales. You will never, ever be able to quantify that loss in sales. So, on paper, you've saved money for "free".

Typically, opportunity cost is impossible or close to impossible to measure. What these companies think they are doing is minimizing cost. Often, they are just maximizing opportunity cost of various decisions. Everyone is trying to subtly cut quality over time.

Going from A quality to B quality is pretty safe, it's likely close to zero consumers will notice. But then you say "well we went from A to B and nobody noticed, so nobody will notice B to C!". So you do it again. Then over and over. And, eventually, you go from a brand known for quality to cheap bargain-bin garbage. And it happened so slowly that leadership is left scratching their heads. Sometimes the company then implodes spontaneously, other times it slowly rots and loses to competitors. It's so common it feels almost inevitable.

Really, most companies don't have to do much to stay successful. For a lot of markets, they just have to keep doing what they're doing. Ah, but the taste of cost-cutting is much too seductive. They do not understand what they are risking.

rileymat2•5h ago
> Basically, if you remove the knobs you can save, say, 10 dollars on every vehicle. In return, you have made your car less attractive and will lose a small number of sales.

Is there evidence that fancy looking screens don't show better in the showroom than legacy looking knobs and buttons? Where under use, they may be better, I am not sure all that sells better.

const_cast•5h ago
No, there isn't. Like I said, the opportunity cost is invisible and impossible to measure.

All I know is personal anecdotes from people I talk to. I know a couple people who have a Mercedes EQS - they've all said the same thing: the big screen is cool for a little bit, then it's just annoying.

I think it will take a generation or two of cars before some consumers start holding back on purchases because of this. For now, they don't know better. But I'm sure after owning a car and being pissed off at it, they'll think a little bit harder on their next purchase. I think consumers are highly impacted by these types of things - small cuts that aren't bad, per se, but are annoying. Consumers are emotional, they hold grudges, they get pissed off.

I sort of feel the same way about fix-a-flat kits. Once people actually have the experience of trying to use a fix-a-flat kit, they'll start asking car salesmen if the car comes with a spare...

elwebmaster•4h ago
And not every consumer has to feel the pain to know. Many, like myself, have seen others suffer and have made their mind of not buying such a car.
troupo•49m ago
The problem isn't just that. These screens are actual safety hazards. Whatever you display in a showroom doesn't justify this: https://grumpy.website/1665
criddell•5h ago
Because cars have long design times and a big touchscreen have generally been seen as more premium than a bunch of push buttons and dials. I think the tide has turned somewhat, but it’s going to take some time.
bluGill•5h ago
It was always expensive. Car makers need their cars to last (the used market is imbortant since few can afford a new car the scrap in 3 years) so they are not buying the cheap switches. a cherry mx will run near a dollar each in quantity. Then you put the cap an it plus wires and it adds up fast per switch. A touch screen is $75 in quantity and replaces many switches.
jama211•3h ago
Because being more expensive than a competitor for something most consumers don’t care about is a hit to sales.
WarOnPrivacy•6h ago
> designing and manufacturing custom molds for each knob and function ... dash does have a cost.

Manufacturing car components already involves designing and custom molds, does it not? Compared to the final purchase price, the cost of adding knobs to that stack seems inconsequential.

antisthenes•6h ago
Yeah, seems like a really weird cope to defend the automakers.

Your average transmission will have an order of magnitude more parts that also needed to be designed and produced with much higher precision.

The interior knob controls are just a rounding error in the cost structure.

bluGill•5h ago
Yes, but the touch screen is one large mold. The button needs a custom mold for each button. The touch screen also has large flat areas with reduces cost since is prevents extra cost round shapes.
aikinai•6h ago
It's cost, not competence. These days making a touch screen is easier and cheaper than manufacturing and assembling lots of little buttons and knobs.
gaudystead•6h ago
One of the reasons I purchased a (newer but used Mazda) was because it still has buttons and knobs right next to the driver's right hand in the center console. I can operate parts of the car without even having to look.

(another reason was because it still has a geared transmission instead of a CVT, but that's a separate discussion)

bluGill•5h ago
My newer phev saves me a large pile of money ever month in gas. Not as much as payments, but closer than you would think.
grugagag•5h ago
Look ma, I can change the air conditioning controls without looking moment.

A friend got a tesla on lease and it was quite cheap, 250/month. Been driven in that car a few times and was able to study the driver using the controls and it’s hideusly badly designed, driver has to take eyes off the road and deep dive in menus. Plus that slapped tablet in the middle is busy to look at, tiring and distacting. The 3d view of other cars/ pedestrians is a gimmick, or at least it looks like one to me. Does anyone actually like that? Perhaps im outdated or something but I wouldn’t consider such a bad UX in a car.

PoshBreeze•5h ago
This is often repeated but I don't believe this for a second. I have an 90s vehicle which is based on 60/70s technology. A switch for a fog light is like £10 on ebay for a replacement and I know I am not paying anywhere near cost i.e. I am being ripped off.
seanmcdirmid•5h ago
I'm pretty sure that simple switch is something directly in the circuit for the fog light, and there is a dedicated wire between the fog light, the switch, and the fuse box. And if its an old Jag, those wires flake out and have to be redone at great expense.

Compare this to the databus that is used in today's cars, it really isn't even a fair comparison on cost (you don't have to have 100 wires running through different places in your car, just one bus to 100 things and signal is separated from power).

PoshBreeze•5h ago
> I'm pretty sure that simple switch is something directly in the circuit for the fog light, and there is a dedicated wire between the fog light, the switch, and the fuse box. And if its an old Jag, those wires flake out and have to be redone at great expense.

I don't really want to get into a big debate about this as I haven't worked on Jags, but I don't believe that replacing parts of the loom is would be that expensive. Remaking an entire loom, I will admit that would expensive as that would be a custom job with a lot of labour.

> Compare this to the databus that is used in today's cars, it really isn't even a fair comparison on cost (you don't have to have 100 wires running through different places in your car, just one bus to 100 things and signal is separated from power).

Ok fine. But the discussion was button vs touch screens and there is nothing preventing buttons being used with the newer databus design. I am pretty sure older BMWs, Mercs etc worked this way.

seanmcdirmid•5h ago
They can be used, they just need more complexity than a simple switch that completes a circuit, they now have tiny cpus so they can signal the bus correctly. The switch must broadcast turn thing on when the switch is set to on, and then turn thing off when the switch is set to off, all with whatever serial protocol being used (including back off and retry, etc. ..). So your input devices need to be little computers so that you can use one bus for everything, now you can see where one touch screen begins to save money.
PoshBreeze•2h ago
I don't believe what you are describing is necessary. I am pretty sure you could have a module where the switches are wired normally into something and that communicates with the main bus. I am pretty sure this is how a lot of cars already work from watching people work on more modern vehicles.

In any event. I've never heard a good explanation of why I need all of this to turn the lights on or off in a car, when much simpler systems worked perfectly fine.

sheiyei•35m ago
Ah, the classic "a keyboard has a CPU for each key" argument
Aeolun•5h ago
I’m not sure if this is actually true for the volumes produced by the big carmakers. You’d very quickly get to volumes that make the largest component the material cost.
WarOnPrivacy•5h ago
> It's cost, not competence.

This implies it's a consequential cost. Building with tactile controls would take the (already considerable) purchase price and boost that high enough to impact sales.

If tactile controls were a meaningful cost difference, then budget cars with tactile controls shouldn't be common - in any market.

hinterlands•4h ago
Are controls uniquely important, though? There are hundreds of things in a car that could be made better (more durable, longer lasting, better looking) for just $10 to $100 extra a piece. But it adds up.

It's not just cost, though. The reality is that consumers like the futuristic look, in theory (i.e., at the time of the purchase). Knobs look dated. It's the same reason why ridiculously glossy laptop screens were commonplace. They weren't cheaper to make, they just looked cool.

cwillu•4h ago
Yes, controls are uniquely important.
riknos314•2h ago
> knobs look dated

Not all. Knobs designed with dated designs and/or materials look dated. There's a million ways to make a knob, just use a modern or novel one.

seanmcdirmid•5h ago
Not just that, wiring it in to the single control bus is easier, otherwise you are stuck doing an analog to digital conversion anyways. Even new cars that have separate controls, these are mostly capacitive buttons or dials that simply send a fixed signal on the bus (so your dial will go all the way around, because it isn't actually the single volume control on the radio, but just a turn the volume up or down control).

Most of the cost savings is in having a single bus to wire up through the car, then everything needs a little computer in it to send on that bus...so a screen wins out.

bluGill•5h ago
Most of the seeming analog controls on cars switched to digital in the 1990s. The digital control bus saved several hundred dollars per car. It still looked analog until around 2010 when touch screen started taking over.
seanmcdirmid•4h ago
Probably in 2010 the price of the touch screen began to out compete the price of the analog controls on the bus.
djoldman•5h ago
Is this true given all the chips modern cars have, all the programming that must be done, and all the complex testing and QA required for the multitude of extra function?

I would gladly gladly keep my AC, heat, hazards, blinkers, wipers, maybe a few other buttons and that's it. I don't need back cameras, lane assist, etc.

I find it hard to believe it's cheaper to have all the cameras, chips, and other digital affordances rather than a small number of analog buttons and functions.

bongodongobob•5h ago
You're not thinking about the manufacturing part. Buttons and knobs have to get assembled and physically put into every car. Software just needs to be written once.
hahn-kev•3h ago
In some countries it's a legal requirement to have a backup camera, which means you need a screen to display it, and hardware to render it.
gblargg•4h ago
It allows UI designers to add nearly endless settings and controls where they were before limited by dash space. It's similar to how everything having flash for firmware allows shipping buggy products that they justify because they can always fix it with a firmware update.
aspenmayer•6h ago
Power abhors a vacuum. Choosing to not change is viewed as failure to innovate, even if the design suffers. Planned obsolescence is as old as the concept of yearly production models themselves, and likely older, going back to replacement parts manufacturing and standardized production overtaking piecework.

It’s a race to the bottom to be the least enshittified versus your market competitors. Usability takes a backseat to porcine beauty productization.

makeitdouble•4h ago
I'm sympathetic , but think it's a disservice to the designers to present it like that:

> Every control in the car is visible

No. And that would be horrible.

Every control _critically needed while driving_ is visible and accessible. Controls that matter less can be smaller and more convoluted, or straight hidden.

The levers to adjust seat high and positions are hidden while still accessible. The latch to open the car good can (should ?) be less accessible and can be harder to find.

There are a myriad of subtle and opinionated choices to make the interface efficient. There's nothing trivial or really "simple" about that design process, and IMHO brushing over that is part of what leads us to the current situation where car makers just ignore these considerations.

citizenpaul•3h ago
I commented on here about the surge in US car mfg recruiters contacting me about working on their new car systems. The HN opinion seemed to that they are complete disasters and stay away if I value my sanity.
_kidlike•2h ago
I had similar discussions with my father who started his career in the 80s as an engineer, and has been a CEO for the last ~15 years. The discussion was a bit broader, about engineering and quality/usability in everything.

His perspective was that companies were "run" by engineers first, then a few decades later by managers, and then by marketing.

Who knows what's next, maybe nothing (as in all decisions are accidentally made by AI because everyone at all levels just asks AI). Could be better than our current marketing-driven universe.

swiftcoder•56m ago
The good news over here is that the European NCAP is now mandating they put a bunch of those physical controls back if they want a 5-star safety rating. Would not be sorry to say good bye to the awful touchscreen UI in my car...
julianlam•6h ago
I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see how skeuomorphic icons will solve this and every other problem.
jofzar•6h ago
I'm sorry, this website doesn't have a mobile interface, are you seriously complaining about accessibility when you don't support majority of the web?
Aeolun•5h ago
Websites made for desktop work just fine on mobile. What is your issue? Having to scroll to see all the text?
Gigachad•5h ago
Plain text ones do. Not the OP website which forces a fixed width multi column layout preventing the text from wrapping correctly.
StellarScience•6h ago
We have a user interface design rule that keyboard shortcuts and context menus must only be "shortcuts" for commands that are discoverable via clear buttons or menus. That probably makes our apps old-fashioned.

I recall learning that the four corners of the screen are the most valuable screen real estate, because it's easy to move the mouse to those locations quickly without fine control. So it's user-hostile that for Windows 11 Microsoft moved the default "Start" menu location to the center. And I don't think they can ascribe it to being mobile-first. Maybe it's "touch-first", where mouse motion doesn't apply.

Animats•2h ago
Corners and edges are rarely used that way. They should be. See "Fitts Law".[1]

My metaverse client normally presents a clean 3D view of the world. If you bring the cursor to the top or bottom of the screen, the menu bar and controls appear. They stay visible as long as the cursor is over some control, then, after a few seconds, they disappear.

This seems to be natural to users. I deliberately don't explain it, but everybody finds the controls, because they'll move the mouse and hit an edge.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law

dagmx•6h ago
While I appreciate the ACM having an article on this, their own site is a poor example of good UX.

And some of their conferences are just downright awful UI

https://s2025.siggraph.org/

horsawlarway•5h ago
I think there are couple of conflated aspects here - and some of them are fine, and likely a consequence of computing devices being more ingrained in common day, and some of them are very hostile, and clearly intended to subvert the interests of the user.

As an example:

I think hiding controls in favor of "knowledge in the head", as the author phrases it, is absolutely fine when the user is presumed to be aware of features, should be able to understand they exist and know how to use them, and can reasonably learn them. Especially fine if those controls aren't used all that often, and are behind a keyboard shortcut or other common and efficient route to reach them.

On the other hand - I think there's also been a drive to visibly reduce how much control and understanding basic users might have about how a machine works. Examples of this are things like

- Hiding the scheme/path in browser url bars

- Hiding the file path in file explorers and other relevant contexts

- Hiding desired options behind hoops (ex - installing windows without signing into an account, or disabling personalized ads in chrome)

Those later options feel hostile. I need to know the file path to understand where the file is located. I can't simply memorize it - even if I see the same base filename, is it in "c:/users/me/onedrive/[file]" or "c:/users/me/backed_up_spot/[file]"? No way to know without seeing the damn path, and I can have multiple copies floating around. That's intentional (it drives users to Microsofts paid tooling), and hostile.

Basically - knowledge that can be learned and memorized can benefit from workflows that give you the "blank canvas" that the author seems to hate. Command lines are a VERY powerful tool to use a computer, and the text interface is a big part of that. R is (despite my personal distaste for it as a language) a very powerful tool. Much more powerful and flexible than SPSS.

But there are also places where companies are subverting user goals to drive revenue, and that can rightfully fuck right off.

One of my biggest complaints with modern computing is that "The internet" has placed a lot of software into a gray zone where it's not clear if it's respecting my decisions/needs/wants or the publisher's decisions/needs/wants.

It used to be that the publisher only mattered until the moment of sale. Then it was me and the software vs the world - ride or die. Now far too much software is like judas. Happy to sell me out if there's a little extra silver in it.

RVuRnvbM2e•5h ago
Notion is horrendous for this. Hiding every control behind an invisible hover target. No, I don't want my company documentation to have a minimalist aesthetic. I just want to use it.
padolsey•5h ago
Agree utterly. It's a real shame, and severely affects accessibility for disabled and elderly people. Not only UI discoverability but also the types of swiping or holding movements required on mobile devices. The initial mobile interfaces felt way more accessible, so I don't think its an implicit implication of limited screen real-estate. This has been a trend-driven flattening of UI, with aesthetics over functionality. The palm and compaq pilots felt sublime to use, and the ipod and early mp3 players were fine, as was the originally charming iphone skeudomorphic iconography. It's all been downhill since then.
josephg•4h ago
I don’t know that I agree. Take reading HN comments on my phone. There’s dozens of UI controls that are hidden behind a few buttons at the top or bottom of the screen. Getting that stuff out of the way makes the page itself take up almost all of my phone screen - and that makes the webpage much more beautiful and enjoyable. My phone screen is only so large. The palm pilot era equivalent browser would fill half the screen with buttons and controls and scroll bars, leaving much less room for the website content.

In my opinion, hidden controls aren’t bad per se. But they are something you have to learn to use. That makes them generally worse for beginners and (hopefully) better for experts. It’s a trade off and sometimes getting users to learn your UI is the right decision. I’m glad my code editor puts so much power at my fingertips. I’m glad git is so powerful. I don’t want a simplified version of git if it means giving up some of its power.

That said, I think we have gone way too far toward custom per-app controls. If you’re going to force users to learn your UI conventions, those learnings should apply to other applications on the same platform. Old platforms like the palm were amazing for this - custom controls were incredibly rare. When you learned to use a palm pilot, you could use all the apps on it.

keithnz•5h ago
a lot of the things being pointed out seem like non issues. It seems to me that this doesn't really explore that knowledge in head UIs are actually a lot more straightforward and easy to use with the knowledge in head. Most attempts to circumvent that bloat UIs. Also whatever you give people, if it's a repetitive use UI they tend to learn it and turn into knowledge in head, even if its a knowledge in world type of UI, you then change it and people get confused.
38•4h ago
Did you just have a stroke?
Barbing•3h ago
Just missing hyphens and a couple clarifying rephrases, no?
userbinator•5h ago
This article reminds me of one of my favourite comments on the subject I've seen here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24965293
rkagerer•4h ago
My favorite is how Android shuffles buttons around just as I'm about to tap, so I wind up tapping the wrong one.

I'm convinced advertisers will find a way to leverage that behavior in some new dark UI pattern.

SulphurCrested•4h ago
The article suggests a “simple, well-labeled rotary control ... would accomplish the same function” as a power button and “prevent the user from accidentally activating the control in a way that is no longer hidden”. But a rotary control itself has a serious problem, in that it can mislead the user as to the state, on or off. If the power has failed and the machine does not restart when it comes back, the rotary control will remain in the ON state when the machine is off. From memory, Donald Norman called this kind of thing “false affordance” and gave the example of a door that needed to be pulled having a push-plate on it.

So my iMac, among many other devices like the light I wear on my head camping, has a button which you long-press to turn on. It is a very common pattern which most people will have come across, and it’s reasonable to expect people to learn it. The buttons are even labelled with an ISO standard symbol which you are expected to know.

cwillu•3h ago
I have never looked at a fan that isn't running and been confused by the switch being set to “on”. The affordance is that it immediately tells me that the switch is on, so the problem is somewhere else. Compared to the typical phone's “hold for 3 seconds to turn on, hold for 10 seconds to enter some debug mode”, this is a breath of fresh air when anything unusual is going on with the device.
SulphurCrested•3h ago
I live in a country where the socket on the wall the fan is plugged into also has a switch, which could be on or off. So to make the fan go around, both switches must be on; the user needs to know about and have a mental model of serial circuits.

If it’s just a button the user just has to know two things: turn the switch on at the wall socket when plugging in, which becomes habit since childhoood; and press and hold the button on the fan to make it go, which I suspect most children in 2025 can manage. These two things don’t interact and can be known and learned separately.

As you said, the knob’s position tells you about the switch. But it’s the fan the user is interested in, not the switch.

(BTW, if the fan has a motion sensor you can’t tell it’s off by the fact the blades aren’t turning. There’s probably a telltale LED.)

userbinator•40m ago
If the power has failed and the machine does not restart when it comes back, the rotary control will remain in the ON state when the machine is off.

A better example may be a solenoid button, used on industrial machinery which should remain off after a power failure, which stays held in when pushed, but pops out when the power is cut. They are not common outside of such machinery, because they're extremely expensive. In the first half of the 20th century, they also saw some use in elevators: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37385826

weinzierl•4h ago
I get why you would hide interface elements to use the screen real estate for something else.

I have no idea why some interfaces hide elements hide and leave the space they'd taken up unused.

IntelliJ does this, for example, with the icons above the project tree. There is this little target disc that moves the selection in the project tree to the file currently open in the active editor tab. You have to know the secret spot on the screen where it is hidden and if you move your mouse pointer to the void there, it magically appears.

Why? What is the rationale behind going out of your way to implement something like this?

ryncewynd•3h ago
I agree, I know those buttons are there and how to activate them, but I still occasionally stare blankly at the screen wondering where the buttons are before remembering I need to hover them
autobodie•3h ago
Intellij on Windows also buries the top menus into a hamburger icon and leaves the entire area they occupied empty! Thankfully there is an option to reverse it deep in the settings, but having it be the default is absolutely baffling.
DidYaWipe•3h ago
Microsoft pulls the same BS. Look at Edge. Absolute mess. No menu. No title bar. What application am I even using?

This stupidity seems to have spread across Windows. No title bars or menus... now you can't tell what application a Window belongs to.

And you can't even bring all of an application's windows to the foreground... Microsoft makes you hover of it in the task bar and choose between indiscernible thumbnails, one at a time. WTF? If you have two Explorer windows open to copy stuff, then switch to other apps to work during the copy... you can't give focus back to Explorer and see the two windows again. You have to hover, click on a thumbnail. Now go back and hover, and click on a thumbnail... hopefully not the same one, because of course you can't tell WTF the difference between two lists of files is in a thumbnail.

And Word... the Word UI is now a clinic on abject usability failure. They have a menu bar... except WAIT! Microsoft and some users claim that those are TABS... except that it's just a row of words, looking exactly like a menu.

So now there's NO menu and no actual tabs... just a row of words. And if you go under the File "menu" (yes, File), there are a bunch of VIEW settings. And in there you can add and remove these so-called "tabs," and when you do remove one, the functionality disappears from the entire application. You're not just customizing the toolbar; you're actually disabling entire swaths of features from the application.

It's an absolute shitshow of grotesque incompetence, in a once-great product. No amount of derision for this steaming pile is too much.

aniforprez•2h ago
For your complaints about the taskbar, yes I too find it incredibly annoying that they compress all the application windows into a tiny thumbnail but there is a setting to expand thumbnails to include titles and separate them if there are multiple windows which is what I use. I don't currently have access to my windows machine or I'd help you out with the exact setting but it's there somewhere in the "taskbar settings"
userbinator•55m ago
No title bars or menus... now you can't tell what application a Window belongs to.

I hate when applications stuff other controls (like browser tabs) into the title bar --- leaving you with no place to grab and move the window.

The irony is that we had title bars when monitors were only 640x480, yet now that they have multiplied many times in resolution, and become much bigger, UIs are somehow using the excuse of "saving space" to remove title bars and introducing even more useless whitespace.

int_19h•42m ago
This isn't just a Windows thing. Look at Gnome for another example. macOS of late also likes to take over the title bar for random reasons, although there at least the menu bar is still present regardless.
wizardforhire•3h ago
In some apps I don’t know more controls are not hidden, at least have the option to hide them. Looking at you google maps.
nine_k•3h ago
Some people complain about "visual clutter". Too many stimuli in the field of view assault their attention, and ruin their concentration. Such people want everything that's not in the focus of attention be gone, or at least be inconspicuous.

Some people are like airliner pilots. They enjoy every indicator to be readily visible, and every control to be easily within reach. They can effortlessly switch their focus.

Of course, there is a full range between these extremes.

The default IDE configuration has to do a balancing act, trying to appeal to very different tastes. It's inevitably a compromise.

Some tools have explicit switches: "no distractions mode", "expert mode", etc, which offer pre-configured levels of detail.

musicale•3h ago
This is a good idea. In basic/beginner mode, every control should be readily visible and discoverable.
musicale•3h ago
> I get why you would hide interface elements to use the screen real estate for something else.

Except that screens on phones, tablets, laptops and desktops are larger than ever. Consider the original Macintosh from 1984 – large, visible controls took up a significant portion of its 9" display (smaller than a 10" iPad, monochrome, and low resolution.) Arguably this was partially due to users being unfamiliar with graphical interfaces, but Apple still chose to sacrifice precious and very limited resources (screen real estate, compute, memory, etc.) on a tiny, drastically underpowered (by modern standards) system in the 1980s for interface clarity, visibility, and discoverability. And once displays got larger the real estate costs became negligible.

9dev•17m ago
> There is this little target disc that moves the selection in the project tree to the file currently open in the active editor tab.

Don’t quote me on this, but I vaguely remember there being an option to toggle hiding it, if not in the settings it is in a context menu on the panel.

That thing is a massive time saver, and I agree—keeping it hidden means most people never learn it exists.

analog31•4h ago
Just a minor quibble. Terminal based UI's weren't completely memorized. Many of us had a reference card taped to the wall, or a list of commonly used commands. It was an acceptable way to extend the limited information density of the 80x25 text display, and a really good manual was as discoverable as a GUI.

Not too convenient to carry along with a pocket computer, though.

eviks•4h ago
But the pervasive "form over function" design school disagrees with your desire for the UI to be useful, it has to look clean!
jama211•3h ago
My gosh I was unaware there were so many old men shaking their fists at clouds here. The level of nitpicking here is ridiculous, none of this is hard, no one else seems to have any issues with most of this stuff, it seems to me like people are bored and want to be angry at something.

Touch grass people.

Barbing•3h ago
Guessing you’re not often called to explain e.g. iOS control center to a boomer?

If you have older loved ones, understanding their reality might go a ways towards growing empathy!

MarkLowenstein•2h ago
This is the mistake allowing this phenomenon to continue. It is not a "Boomer" or old-person thing. It is a thing for people who enjoy other things in life than electronics. We've already wasted years of our lives learning how to use a bunch of weak features and apps that weren't worth the time. Now those are all gone and we have to learn more? Forget it. Your app is not worth it.
LoganDark•2h ago
> no one else seems to have any issues with most of this stuff

In my experience, 9 times out of 10 what this actually means is that they just don't know it's an issue! The type of person who would be confused by, say, the iOS control center, is not necessarily the type of person who would easily identify and raise the issue of it being difficult to do something on their device. They would just be mildly annoyed that they can't figure it out, or that the device "can't do it", and move on to find some other way. You may not realize it if you don't interact with those types of people but they fundamentally do not think like you or I do and what may be an obvious problem-solving process to you (e.g. identify a problem, figure out what tools are at your disposal and whether each could be helpful, check for functionality that could do what you are wanting, ask for help from others if you can't figure it out on your own, etc.) may actually not always be so obvious.

That's why the main way I find out people don't know how to do something is from them seeing me do it with my device and going "what!! I didn't know it could do that!!"

saltysaltysalty•3h ago
Published on a site that isn’t responsive lol
zxcvbnm•3h ago
https://askubuntu.com/questions/1552055/general-rant-about-t...
gjvc•3h ago
jetbrains could learn.
krior•32m ago
I really don't know why a power-user tools needs to hide all menus behind an extra hamburger menu.
dav43•2h ago
Apple Photos has fallen into this trap as well.

As a user, you have no way to see if a photo has been "scanned" with smart features and what it has detected (e,g found person x, found dog, blue sky, beach etc).

Trips features, has this algorithm finished scanning your library? You have no idea, it's just hidden.

Faces, detection, has this completely scanned your library? You don't know. Photos that don't seem to have faces detect, was it scanned or failed or did it not scan yet?

The list is nearly endless - but in line with the rest of the direction of MacOS, getting worse.

Tagbert•2h ago
This has not been a new development. The lack of feedback and status have been there since the iPhoto days.
LoganDark•2h ago
> Witness the navigation system in Apple Maps in CarPlay. The system developers obviously wanted to display as much map as possible, as shown in Figure 3 a). This makes sense, but to do that they relied on the use of hidden controls. If I want to enter a destination or zoom in on the map, I have to know to touch the bottom left-hand portion of the map

What? You don't have to touch any specific portion of the map. You tap anywhere and it brings up those controls.

I think this article largely has a point, and most of it seems true, but to me these bits of untruth are unamusing at best.

thih9•2h ago
> A DOS command window. Without specific knowledge in the head, the user cannot perform a single action.

To be fair, even CLI environments provide some UI discovery. E.g. DOS had 'help' and it would list available commands and a short description.

busymom0•2h ago
I wish web developers would stop hiding the scrollbars and stop taking over the back button.

Also hiding key navigation behind hamburger menu instead of using tab bar should be discouraged.

3cats-in-a-coat•1h ago
Steve Jobs was mocking Microsoft for this kind of UI two decades ago when shipping the first iPhone.

None of this is new. But this kind of dysfunctional product is what a dysfunctional organization ships, despite knowledge.

Why? Because leadership wants features. Leadership also wants a clean, marketable product. Leadership also wants both of those done on a dime, quickly and doesn't care about the details. The only way to satisfy all constraints at the same time is to implement features and hide them so they don't clutter the UI.

The problem isn't awareness. It goes deeper.

LocalH•1h ago
This is one thing that pisses me off about modern computing. This is shit that we mostly already figured out, but people with no context decided that visual design was the most important part of UI design, with no forethought to usage or discoverability.

The golden age of computing is sadly long, long passed.

ryanbigg•19m ago
Ironically the article is barely readable on an iPhone…