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Themis (European Reusable Rocket) is assembled on launch pad

https://phys.org/news/2025-09-themis-pad-fully.html
68•theamk•3d ago

Comments

rob74•2h ago
A few years ago there would have been comments along the lines of "why sink money into this, SpaceX is years ahead, just use their rockets", but I think that the recent events in the US have proven that it makes sense for ESA to develop their own reusable rocket (better late than never)...
JumpCrisscross•1h ago
This is a terrific illustration of comparative advantage and economies of scale.

If Europe and America could trade with trust, Europe could put these resources into space missions. (Or solar panels. Whatever.) SpaceX, meanwhile, would have more resources with which to scale Starship.

Instead we have inefficient duplication and diseconomies of scale. All so…idk, the Italians stop taking advantage of America...

graemep•1h ago
I disagree. It is good to have more than one design. It is not exact duplication so alternative approaches are taken. We have more than one design if one proves flawed. We avoid creating a monopoly.

We could maximise economies of scale by having one car manufacturer that made a small number of models. No one would suggest that is a good idea.

Even the Soviet Union did not go to the extreme of having only one design for every possible product.

JumpCrisscross•45m ago
> It is good to have more than one design

SpaceX has multiple designs generations ahead of anything in Europe in this category. (China is catching up, but it too is retracing Hawthorne's path.)

Themis is cool. But it's duplicating what SpaceX did fifteen to twenty years ago and what China has been working on for ten. Methalox, open cycle gas generator, steel tanks...there aren't any daring design decisions here. And there shouldn't be. This is a solved problem. (Again, that doesn't mean Europe shouldn't be solving it independently. But it's not innovating anything here.)

> We could maximise economies of scale by having one car manufacturer that made a small number of models

Mature market. Multiple optima. See my comment on Airbus and Boeing. When you're pathfinding, you want multiple bets. When you're pursuing, R&D benefits from scale.

anovikov•1h ago
But that's govspace, it's not at all about efficiency or economy, it's a jobs program.
makkes•1h ago
"If everybody would just use Windows, companies and developers wouldn't sink money and effort into the development of operating systems."
StopDisinfo910•1h ago
No, access to space is too strategically important to ever delegate. It’s not something you can buy.

Even before the Trump debacle, the USA were extremely unreliable when it came to satellite images for exemple. Do you remember the fake images passed as Irak developing weapons of mass destruction? Because I certainly do.

Europe needs their own launcher in the same way it needs its own defence industry. It’s just sad that it took so long for some members to finally realise that provided they actually did.

JumpCrisscross•49m ago
> access to space is too strategically important to ever delegate

New York isn't "delegating" its space access to California, Texas and Florida. (Same as America never saw itself delegating shipbuilding to our Japanese and Korean allies.)

I'm not arguing Europe isn't acting rationally. Just that this is the cost of strategic independence. Everyone shares a burden of duplication and diseconomies of scale. It really isn't that long ago that NATO members--America included--didn't think that way.

pjc50•21m ago
Interestingly, NY and some other states have de-delegated some health collaboration because they can no longer trust the CDC: https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...

Politics of division will end up with fragmentation. But yes, Europe does need its own space capability as part of its own military capability in order to remain an independent block without undue external pressure. Conversely, that subordinates the independence of countries within the block, which is why things like an "EU military" haven't got off the ground until now.

JumpCrisscross•15m ago
Yup. If that happens in America between states, it further underlines the argument. We're in a world where soveriegnty must be protected. But in this we lose the peace dividends of comparative advantage and economies of scale.
fransje26•30m ago
> Do you remember the fake images passed as Irak developing weapons of mass destruction?

I remember Colin Powell giving a presentation at the UN holding a glass vial of "proof" Irak had WMDs..

What a good thing he didn't drop it, otherwise they would all be "dead"..

chrizel•1h ago
You could argue the same with Boeing vs. Airbus. Why should Europeans build their own aircrafts? Today I think a lot of people are happy, that Airbus exists to compensate for the problems that Boeing has. Competition is good and will lead to better solutions in the long run.
rsynnott•53m ago
While I don't disagree, Airbus's origin was more or less the opposite of that; it was a merger of existing aircraft manufacturers. Both Airbus's creation, and Boeing's merger with McDonnell Douglas _decreased_ competition, and arguably neither should have been allowed.
JumpCrisscross•53m ago
> You could argue the same with Boeing vs. Airbus

You couldn't. Boeing and Airbus have pursued different strategies, both in design and production. There is very little actual duplication between their work. To the extent there is, it's in each de-risking different technologies and then the other, after seeing the results, rapidly catching up.

This is partly a reflection of commercial aviation being a relatively mature market. Both in the pace of required innovation (and regulation). And the fact that the difference between branching out and marching forward is difficult to know ex ante.

Put another way, the next steps in launch vehicles are relatively constrained. The goals aren't particularly unknown, just the path. For aviation, on the other hand, the goals are quite varied.

riffraff•24m ago
the US themselves are also propping up multiple companies for space deliveries. It's one of those things where it's important to have alternatives.
JumpCrisscross•13m ago
> US themselves are also propping up multiple companies for space deliveries

They're going after different markets with similar tech (mostly not working, to be honest) or trying different tech. Themis and Prometheus are entirely unoriginal designs. (Which is fine. Their point isn't to be innovative, but to be there, in Europe, where Trump can't touch them.)

rsynnott•1h ago
> have proven that it makes sense for ESA to develop their own reusable rocket (better late than never)...

It may not actually be that urgent, at least for their own use. A non-expendable Falcon 9 launch costs $70m; an Ariane 6 launch costs 80-100m EUR (for a more capable rocket, especially for GTO). Now, SpaceX may be building a lot of profit into that $70m, but from the customer's POV it hardly matters. They're not in drastically different cost realms. The bulk of the cost of most ESA launches would still be the payload, not the launcher.

Also that Falcon 9 cost is up from about $60m a couple of years ago, so you wouldn't necessarily want to bet on it not rising further. And that's list price; in practice SpaceX charges NASA over $100m/launch and "Space Force" over $110m/launch (https://arstechnica.com/space/2025/04/reusable-rockets-are-h...), so, assuming that as another space agency ESA would be charged similar, Ariane may actually be the _budget option_.

Now, for commercial it's a different story, though really Arianespace and its predecessors have never been _hugely_ competitive there; even before SpaceX their market was mostly stuff that couldn't go on Russian rockets.

mschild•1h ago
Its not urgent until the US government starts blocking ESA from launching anything unless the EU agrees to some trade deal.

Being independent isn't necessarily about lower cost. Its about having an alternative that you control.

rsynnott•1h ago
... Wait, how would the US government block ESA from launching stuff? ESA has its own rockets, which launch from its own facility and which are not drastically more expensive than Falcon 9 (this is a _fairly_ recent change; Ariane 5 was far more expensive than 6).
JumpCrisscross•50m ago
> ESA has its own rockets, which launch from its own facility and which are not drastically more expensive than Falcon 9

ESA's launch cadence does not permit populating a LEO constellation. On this, currently, America has a monopoly. (Soon, I expect, to be shared with China.)

msl•12m ago
Developing a reusable launch vehicle is not needed for a fast launch cadence. The expendable Soyuz family has had 2006 launches since 1957 [1]. That's one in just over 12 days, and in reality, the cadence has been a lot faster at times (for long, continuous stretches).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_orbital_launcher...

JumpCrisscross•4m ago
> a reusable launch vehicle is not needed for a fast launch cadence

You're correct. But ESA isn't developing a mass-manufactured ELV, either. Themis is basically rebuilding Falcon 1, Prometheus a methalox Merlin.

Nothing ESA is doing generates launch independence from America (or China) in respect of LEO constellations or a war in space.

Hikikomori•50m ago
2nd amendment.
mschild•30m ago
How does that help the European Space Agency?
mschild•31m ago
ESA has in the recent past used SpaceX rockets to deliver payloads. [0]

ESA now has the ability but my comment was specifically pointing out that ESA absolutely should have the independent ability to launch equipment.

https://www.satellitetoday.com/launch/2024/10/07/spacex-laun...

themgt•1h ago
Now, SpaceX may be building a lot of profit into that $70m, but from the customer's POV it hardly matters

Ariane 6 cost $5 billion to develop, more than NASA paid SpaceX for all of HLS development and lunar landing, and has had as many successful launches (2) in its entire 14 month launch history as Falcon 9 has had in the last 2 days. And Falcon 9 is the old, boring, table stakes rocket.

If your goal is actually getting stuff to space then only being able to get ~1/100th the stuff to space does matter quite a lot.

rsynnott•1h ago
That $5bn is a sunk cost, and Arianespace should be, within reason, able to deliver as many of them as ESA wants. My point is that it's not clear that ESA actually has a huge problem here; an Ariane 6 launch would appear to cost them similar to or less than a Falcon 9 launch does NASA (never mind a Falcon 9 Heavy, for which NASA pays about 200 million a shot; the bigger Ariane 6 variant sits somewhere between the two in role). This is a change from Ariane 5, which really was far more expensive (almost twice the cost).
themgt•1h ago
It's just totally nonsensical to talk about price when Falcon 9 has no competition on price. SpaceX is rationally going to charge the highest price customers will pay. If a launch costs them $20m but no one else can do comparable kg-to-orbit priced lower than $80m (at much lower volume of launches), they will charge $70-80m.

should be, within reason, able to deliver as many of them as ESA wants

Where "within reason" means 1-2% of launches Falcon 9 can do. Again, if Ariane 6 internal costs were $20m and they could do 150 launches/year, you would see actual competition and prices going down, and Jevons paradox with a lot of new launch demand.

rsynnott•58m ago
As a _launch customer_, it doesn't _really_ matter to ESA what the underlying cost is, only what they are _charged_. For the time being, Ariane 6 isn't drastically more expensive than the list price for the competition, and is, as above, _cheaper than the cost that other space agencies are actually paying for Falcon 9_.

If ESA was actually a commercial launch company, this would be different, but they're not. (Arianespace _is_, kind of, and _it_ should be far more concerned about this).

For practical purposes the number of Ariane 6 launches is gated by demand. Over the long term you'd probably expect it to be 5 to 10 per year, same as Ariane 5 used to be.

JumpCrisscross•47m ago
> For the time being, Ariane 6 isn't drastically more expensive than the list price for the competition

That's because SpaceX is soaking up its spare capacity with Starlink. I expect once that market is saturated SpaceX's launch prices will begin plummeting, as it seeks to maximise volume through market share.

More critically: SpaceX discounts for volume contracts. And it's the only launch company offering the kind of cadence populating a LEO constellation requires.

gostsamo•1h ago
Apples, oranges... Falcon proved new use cases for rockets and with the EU looking for alternative of Starlink, the EU now must cover the same use case as well without Trump in the supply chain.
JumpCrisscross•51m ago
> Arianespace and its predecessors have never been _hugely_ competitive

Arianespace is run as a jobs programme and profit centre. It explicitly doesn't even try to compete [1].

So long as Arianespace soaks up European launch budgets, SpaceX's trans-Atlantic primacy is assured.

[1] https://illdefinedspace.substack.com/p/catching-super-heavy-...

philipwhiuk•34m ago
> Now, SpaceX may be building a lot of profit into that $70m, but from the customer's POV it hardly matters. They're not in drastically different cost realms

SpaceX internal costs are < $20m a launch. There's a huge profit margin.

SpaceX prices have risen because they have effectively no competition in the medium-> heavy launch market, not because they are more expensive to launch than they used to be.

It's a huge gulf.

> Now, for commercial it's a different story, though really Arianespace and its predecessors have never been _hugely_ competitive there; even before SpaceX their market was mostly stuff that couldn't go on Russian rockets.

This is also not true. Arianespace dominated the commercial market prior to SpaceX. They were doing half a dozen GTO missions a year. Yes it's not dozens and dozens but prior to the dropping of launch costs, expensive GEO satellites launched into GTO was the market.

I'm sorry but this "maybe reusability isn't worth it" is the exact line that ULA and Arianespace have bandied around for a decade and they have lost their entire lunch to a company that can undercut them and still make a healthy profit margin.

pjmlp•1h ago
We also need to go back to the 1980's of having European computers, operating systems and programming languages.
flanked-evergl•40m ago
Not going to happen with the EU.
pjmlp•20m ago
Depends where geopolitics end up going wrong, more than they are already.

Drastic times call for drastic measures.

ktosobcy•14m ago
Because?

(but please refrain yourself for spreading FUT of how awful and autoritarian the EU is)

JumpCrisscross•2m ago
> Because?

I'm genuinely curious for the formal answer. But the simple one is European institutions seem to be built for consensus and around the assumption of a Pax Americana.

If you were rebuilding Europe for strategic autonomy, you'd rejigger several electoral and decision-making systems.

ofrzeta•2h ago
"The first model of the European Space Agency's (ESA) reusable rocket demonstrator Themis is standing at its launch pad in Kiruna, Sweden."

Is Kiruna a good place for this? I read that it's collapsing due to extensive mining for decades.

ejolto•1h ago
The Esrange launchpad is more than 50 km from the Kiruna iron mine, which is 4km long, 80m thick and 2km deep.
ragebol•1h ago
Any city would be a bad place for a rocket (test) launch facility, 'collapsing' due to mining or not.

Luckily the city is some 44 km drive away from the launch site.

And there's still people living in Kiruna, it's not collapsing but affected still in some shape of form. Heard on some podcast that mining blasts are timed to reduce the disturbance and some buildings (or their inhabitants probably) relocated, IIRC.

prmoustache•1h ago
afaik they are moving the city step by step. Hasn't the church been moved a few weeks ago?
unwind•32m ago
Yes, on August 20: https://lkab.com/en/press/kiruna-church-has-found-a-new-home....
Hikikomori•1h ago
The launch pad isn't in the town square.
MaxPock•51m ago
Are they copying Space X or that accusation is reserved for China ?
wosined•36m ago
Only midwits shun copying. It is good way to learn. It is only bad if you lie about authorship.
mikebonnell•37m ago
Is there a specific reason why this site seems to have so much less visible infrastructure than ESA or NASA?
philipwhiuk•26m ago
It's a much much smaller rocket than you see at Kourou or at Kennedy. Kennedy was, let's not forget, built for a vehicle more powerful than the Saturn V. And both to handle the SRBs of Ariane launchers (which basically chuck flying rubble out the back on launch).

The pad infrastructure is reasonably similar to an actual comparative launch site like Kodiak AK.

Gravityloss•10m ago
For history: Arianespace was founded in the first place to launch independent European communication satellites that USA wouldn't launch.

Trade is extremely useful, but certain strategic capabilities are very useful also to have on your own. I personally think it would make sense from Europe's point of view for European companies or consortiums to develop operational stealth aircraft.

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