Is Kiruna a good place for this? I read that it's collapsing due to extensive mining for decades.
Luckily the city is some 44 km drive away from the launch site.
And there's still people living in Kiruna, it's not collapsing but affected still in some shape of form. Heard on some podcast that mining blasts are timed to reduce the disturbance and some buildings (or their inhabitants probably) relocated, IIRC.
The pad infrastructure is reasonably similar to an actual comparative launch site like Kodiak AK.
Trade is extremely useful, but certain strategic capabilities are very useful also to have on your own. I personally think it would make sense from Europe's point of view for European companies or consortiums to develop operational stealth aircraft.
rob74•2h ago
JumpCrisscross•1h ago
If Europe and America could trade with trust, Europe could put these resources into space missions. (Or solar panels. Whatever.) SpaceX, meanwhile, would have more resources with which to scale Starship.
Instead we have inefficient duplication and diseconomies of scale. All so…idk, the Italians stop taking advantage of America...
graemep•1h ago
We could maximise economies of scale by having one car manufacturer that made a small number of models. No one would suggest that is a good idea.
Even the Soviet Union did not go to the extreme of having only one design for every possible product.
JumpCrisscross•45m ago
SpaceX has multiple designs generations ahead of anything in Europe in this category. (China is catching up, but it too is retracing Hawthorne's path.)
Themis is cool. But it's duplicating what SpaceX did fifteen to twenty years ago and what China has been working on for ten. Methalox, open cycle gas generator, steel tanks...there aren't any daring design decisions here. And there shouldn't be. This is a solved problem. (Again, that doesn't mean Europe shouldn't be solving it independently. But it's not innovating anything here.)
> We could maximise economies of scale by having one car manufacturer that made a small number of models
Mature market. Multiple optima. See my comment on Airbus and Boeing. When you're pathfinding, you want multiple bets. When you're pursuing, R&D benefits from scale.
anovikov•1h ago
makkes•1h ago
StopDisinfo910•1h ago
Even before the Trump debacle, the USA were extremely unreliable when it came to satellite images for exemple. Do you remember the fake images passed as Irak developing weapons of mass destruction? Because I certainly do.
Europe needs their own launcher in the same way it needs its own defence industry. It’s just sad that it took so long for some members to finally realise that provided they actually did.
JumpCrisscross•49m ago
New York isn't "delegating" its space access to California, Texas and Florida. (Same as America never saw itself delegating shipbuilding to our Japanese and Korean allies.)
I'm not arguing Europe isn't acting rationally. Just that this is the cost of strategic independence. Everyone shares a burden of duplication and diseconomies of scale. It really isn't that long ago that NATO members--America included--didn't think that way.
pjc50•21m ago
Politics of division will end up with fragmentation. But yes, Europe does need its own space capability as part of its own military capability in order to remain an independent block without undue external pressure. Conversely, that subordinates the independence of countries within the block, which is why things like an "EU military" haven't got off the ground until now.
JumpCrisscross•15m ago
fransje26•30m ago
I remember Colin Powell giving a presentation at the UN holding a glass vial of "proof" Irak had WMDs..
What a good thing he didn't drop it, otherwise they would all be "dead"..
chrizel•1h ago
rsynnott•53m ago
JumpCrisscross•53m ago
You couldn't. Boeing and Airbus have pursued different strategies, both in design and production. There is very little actual duplication between their work. To the extent there is, it's in each de-risking different technologies and then the other, after seeing the results, rapidly catching up.
This is partly a reflection of commercial aviation being a relatively mature market. Both in the pace of required innovation (and regulation). And the fact that the difference between branching out and marching forward is difficult to know ex ante.
Put another way, the next steps in launch vehicles are relatively constrained. The goals aren't particularly unknown, just the path. For aviation, on the other hand, the goals are quite varied.
riffraff•24m ago
JumpCrisscross•13m ago
They're going after different markets with similar tech (mostly not working, to be honest) or trying different tech. Themis and Prometheus are entirely unoriginal designs. (Which is fine. Their point isn't to be innovative, but to be there, in Europe, where Trump can't touch them.)
rsynnott•1h ago
It may not actually be that urgent, at least for their own use. A non-expendable Falcon 9 launch costs $70m; an Ariane 6 launch costs 80-100m EUR (for a more capable rocket, especially for GTO). Now, SpaceX may be building a lot of profit into that $70m, but from the customer's POV it hardly matters. They're not in drastically different cost realms. The bulk of the cost of most ESA launches would still be the payload, not the launcher.
Also that Falcon 9 cost is up from about $60m a couple of years ago, so you wouldn't necessarily want to bet on it not rising further. And that's list price; in practice SpaceX charges NASA over $100m/launch and "Space Force" over $110m/launch (https://arstechnica.com/space/2025/04/reusable-rockets-are-h...), so, assuming that as another space agency ESA would be charged similar, Ariane may actually be the _budget option_.
Now, for commercial it's a different story, though really Arianespace and its predecessors have never been _hugely_ competitive there; even before SpaceX their market was mostly stuff that couldn't go on Russian rockets.
mschild•1h ago
Being independent isn't necessarily about lower cost. Its about having an alternative that you control.
rsynnott•1h ago
JumpCrisscross•50m ago
ESA's launch cadence does not permit populating a LEO constellation. On this, currently, America has a monopoly. (Soon, I expect, to be shared with China.)
msl•12m ago
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_orbital_launcher...
JumpCrisscross•4m ago
You're correct. But ESA isn't developing a mass-manufactured ELV, either. Themis is basically rebuilding Falcon 1, Prometheus a methalox Merlin.
Nothing ESA is doing generates launch independence from America (or China) in respect of LEO constellations or a war in space.
Hikikomori•50m ago
mschild•30m ago
mschild•31m ago
ESA now has the ability but my comment was specifically pointing out that ESA absolutely should have the independent ability to launch equipment.
https://www.satellitetoday.com/launch/2024/10/07/spacex-laun...
themgt•1h ago
Ariane 6 cost $5 billion to develop, more than NASA paid SpaceX for all of HLS development and lunar landing, and has had as many successful launches (2) in its entire 14 month launch history as Falcon 9 has had in the last 2 days. And Falcon 9 is the old, boring, table stakes rocket.
If your goal is actually getting stuff to space then only being able to get ~1/100th the stuff to space does matter quite a lot.
rsynnott•1h ago
themgt•1h ago
should be, within reason, able to deliver as many of them as ESA wants
Where "within reason" means 1-2% of launches Falcon 9 can do. Again, if Ariane 6 internal costs were $20m and they could do 150 launches/year, you would see actual competition and prices going down, and Jevons paradox with a lot of new launch demand.
rsynnott•58m ago
If ESA was actually a commercial launch company, this would be different, but they're not. (Arianespace _is_, kind of, and _it_ should be far more concerned about this).
For practical purposes the number of Ariane 6 launches is gated by demand. Over the long term you'd probably expect it to be 5 to 10 per year, same as Ariane 5 used to be.
JumpCrisscross•47m ago
That's because SpaceX is soaking up its spare capacity with Starlink. I expect once that market is saturated SpaceX's launch prices will begin plummeting, as it seeks to maximise volume through market share.
More critically: SpaceX discounts for volume contracts. And it's the only launch company offering the kind of cadence populating a LEO constellation requires.
gostsamo•1h ago
JumpCrisscross•51m ago
Arianespace is run as a jobs programme and profit centre. It explicitly doesn't even try to compete [1].
So long as Arianespace soaks up European launch budgets, SpaceX's trans-Atlantic primacy is assured.
[1] https://illdefinedspace.substack.com/p/catching-super-heavy-...
philipwhiuk•34m ago
SpaceX internal costs are < $20m a launch. There's a huge profit margin.
SpaceX prices have risen because they have effectively no competition in the medium-> heavy launch market, not because they are more expensive to launch than they used to be.
It's a huge gulf.
> Now, for commercial it's a different story, though really Arianespace and its predecessors have never been _hugely_ competitive there; even before SpaceX their market was mostly stuff that couldn't go on Russian rockets.
This is also not true. Arianespace dominated the commercial market prior to SpaceX. They were doing half a dozen GTO missions a year. Yes it's not dozens and dozens but prior to the dropping of launch costs, expensive GEO satellites launched into GTO was the market.
I'm sorry but this "maybe reusability isn't worth it" is the exact line that ULA and Arianespace have bandied around for a decade and they have lost their entire lunch to a company that can undercut them and still make a healthy profit margin.
pjmlp•1h ago
flanked-evergl•40m ago
pjmlp•20m ago
Drastic times call for drastic measures.
ktosobcy•14m ago
(but please refrain yourself for spreading FUT of how awful and autoritarian the EU is)
JumpCrisscross•2m ago
I'm genuinely curious for the formal answer. But the simple one is European institutions seem to be built for consensus and around the assumption of a Pax Americana.
If you were rebuilding Europe for strategic autonomy, you'd rejigger several electoral and decision-making systems.