Does our “need for speed” make our wi-fi suck?

https://orb.net/blog/does-speed-make-wifi-suck

74•jamies•4h ago

Comments

PaulHoule•4h ago

I did some experimentation with UniFi hubs and came to the conclusion that if you can give each device its own WiFi channel that would be ideal -- contention is that bad and often an uncontended channel with otherwise poor characteristics will beat a contended channel that otherwise looks good.

The other bit of advice that is buried in there that no-one wants to hear for residences is the best way to speed up your Wi-Fi is to not use it. You might think it's convenient to have your TV connect to Netflix via WiFi and it is, but it is going to make everything else that really needs the Wi-Fi slower. It's a much better answer to hook up everything on Ethernet that you possibly can than it is to follow the more traveled route of more channels and more congestion with mesh Wi-Fi.

JoshTriplett•3h ago

> The other bit of advice that is buried in there that no-one wants to hear for residences is the best way to speed up your Wi-Fi is to not use it. You might think it's convenient to have your TV connect to Netflix via WiFi and it is, but it is going to make everything else that really needs the Wi-Fi slower. It's a much better answer to hook up everything on Ethernet that you possibly can than it is to follow the more traveled route of more channels and more congestion with mesh Wi-Fi.

Absolutely. Everything other than cell phones and laptops-not-at-a-desk should be on Ethernet.

I had wires run in 2020 when I started doing even more video calls. Huge improvement in usability.

typpilol•3h ago

The reality is that most people only have a single cord coming into the house

So they would have to do quite a bit of work to run cable. Also people living in apartments that cant just start drilling through walls.

I'd say most ppl use wifi because they have too, not pure convenience

ericd•3h ago

Eh flat Ethernet cables can easily be snaked all over with adhesive clips, and if you color match cable/clips/walls, it doesn’t look bad.

PaulHoule•2h ago

Visiting museum ships also showed me you can sometimes route cables over living and working spaces.

0cf8612b2e1e•2h ago

This is what I did. Takes minimal effort and then you never have to worry about it again.

dpark•1h ago

Cables routed on visible walls look absolutely terrible. I wish they didn’t, but they do.

Yes, it’s better if your cable and clips and wall all match, but it still looks bad.

wlesieutre•2h ago

MoCA adapters are an option if you’re already wired for coax

eikenberry•2h ago

Ethernet cables can be as long as 100meters, long enough to snake around most any apartment. Add on a few rugs to cover over where they'd be tripping hazards and you're all set.

passivegains•2h ago

I got good results from running cables around the entire perimeter of a room to avoid crossing doorways. Doesn't work so well on bathrooms though.

GeorgeTirebiter•2h ago

Mu-MIMO would help. The real problem is that energy between a unit and an AP is not in a pencil-thin RF laser-beam --- it is spread out. Other nodes hear that energy, and back off. If we had better control of point-to-point links, then you could have plenty of bandwidth. It's not as if the photon field cannot hold them all. When we broadcast in all directions, we waste energy, and we cause unnecessary interference to other receivers.

sidewndr46•1h ago

it was quite a while back but I read some press release about a manufacturer that would make an access point that had mechanically steered directional antennas. Unfortunately I don't think it ever made it to market.

jdeibele•2h ago

We downsized from a house built in 1914 with phone jacks everywhere to a house built in 2007 with coax and ethernet ports in every room, some rooms with two.

At the 1914 house, I used ethernet-over-powerline adapters so I could have a second router running in access point mode. The alternative was punching holes in the outside walls since there was no way to feasibly run cabling inside lath-and-plaster walls.

I don't know how 2025 houses are built but I would be surprised if they didn't have an ethernet jack in every room to a wiring closet of some sort. Not sure about coax.

My son has ethernet in his dorm with an ethernet switch so he can connect his video game consoles and TV. I think that's pretty common.

runjake•1h ago

> I don't know how 2025 houses are built but I would be surprised if they didn't have an ethernet jack in every room to a wiring closet of some sort. Not sure about coax.

Speaking from a US standpoint, it still not common in new construction for ethernet to be deployed in a house. I'm not sure why. It seems like a no-brainer.

Coax is still usually reserved to a couple jacks -- usually in the living room and master bedrooms.

sidewndr46•1h ago

Adding cat5e or cat6 to each room is just a cost. Builders generally compete on cost.

ipython•2h ago

Well, unless you’re multihomed, you’ll always only have one cable coming in.

It’s what you do with that cable that matters :)

Even the telco provided router/ap combo units usually have a built in switch, so you don’t even need another device in most cases.

stacktraceyo•19m ago

I wish I could have multiple modems coming into the house using the same provided cable. Why’s that not possible?

When I was younger I went and bought a new modem so I could play halo on my Xbox in another room than where my parents had the original modem. Found out then I’d need to pay for each modem.

fragmede•3h ago

And the big one I want to point out, is that this AI stuff has me downloading so many ten gigabyte model files to run them locally that I'm really feeling the lack of speed that my setup has.

marssaxman•2h ago

The house I live in was built with ethernet, but of the fourteen outlets the builders saw fit to include, not one is located where we can make use of it. The two devices in our house which use a wired connection are both plugged directly into the switch in our utility closet.

(We do have one internet-connected device which permanently lives about an inch away from one of the ethernet sockets, but it is, ironically, a wifi-only device with no RJ45 port.)

baby_souffle•1h ago

> The house I live in was built with ethernet, but of the fourteen outlets the builders saw fit to include, not one is located where we can make use of it.

I had a similar situation a few years back. It was a rental so I didn't have access to the attic let alone permission to do my own drops. It'll depend a _lot_ on your exact setup, but we had reasonably good results with some ethernet-over-power adapters.

jeffbee•3h ago

Ethernet pretty much sucks and has not improved substantially in consumer devices since the previous century. It also has pretty severe idle power consumption consequences for PCs, unless you are an expert who goes around fixing that.

kjkjadksj•3h ago

You still get the best speeds over ethernet today because of how wifi standards are slow walked, both on the router and the device connected with the router. Ethernet standards are slow walked too of course but we are talking slow walking a 2.5g or 10g connection here, even otherwise crappy hardware is likely to have 1g ethernet and it’s been that way for at least 10 or 15 years.

jeffbee•3h ago

If you want to transfer the contents of your old mac to your new mac, your best options in order of speed are 1) thunderbolt, 2) wifi, and 3) ethernet. You do not, in any sense, get "the best speeds" from ethernet. The market penetration of greater-than-1gb wired networks in consumer devices is practically nothing.

astrange•3h ago

I have all 2.5gbit at home with some 10gbit SFP copper connections, it wasn't particularly difficult. The devices with built-in Ethernet ports are all gigabit of course, but the ones with USB-C ports have 2.5gbit adapters.

I could go to 10gbit but the Thunderbolt adapters for those all have fans.

pbronez•3h ago

If you’re the kind of person who wants better than gigabit Ethernet, it’s very available. 2.5Gbe is just a USB adapter away. Mac Studio comes with 10GbE. Unifi networking gives you managed multi-gig and plenty of others do unmanaged multigig at affordable prices. Piles of consumer NAS support multigig.

I think this market is driven by content creators. Lots of prosumers shoot terabytes of video on a weekly basis. Local NAS are essential and multi-gig local networks dramatically improve the editing experience.

kulahan•3h ago

brb ima turn on my microwave halfway through your transfer

bobbiechen•2h ago

To this day I expect my wifi to drop whenever I hear a microwave, thanks to the one in my parents house: https://digitalseams.com/blog/microwave-ovens-wi-fi-and-http

kjkjadksj•3h ago

Yes thunderbolt is best but look at costs. Apple is selling a 4ft cable for $130. I have a ton of random cat 5e and cat 6 and they go for a couple dollars.

Now lets talk about my actual “old mac” and “new mac” Mid 2012 mbp and my m3 pro. The 2012 only can do 802.11n so not gigabit speeds. It does have a gigabit ethernet however.

Even if I was going m3 pro to m3 pro, I’m only getting full wifi 6e speeds if I actually have a router that makes use of 160hz channels. My router can’t. It is hard to even gleam router offerings to see which are offering proper wifi 6 because there are like dozens of skus sold even to different stores from the same brand getting slightly different skus. Afaik my mac does not support 160hz wifi 6 either.

kstrauser•3h ago

This is so insanely wrong that I almost feel like we're being trolled. Yes, a direct Thunderbolt connection would be best. Failing that, a guaranteed 1Gb Ethernet connection, which is ubiquitous and dirt cheap, and has latency measured in microseconds, is going to wipe the floor with real-world Wi-Fi 7 speeds. And for what you'd pay for end-to-end Wi-Fi 7 compatible gear, you could be using 10Gb Ethernet, which is in a different league of stability and actual observed throughput compared to anything wireless.

I have Firewalla Wi-Fi 7 APs connected via 10Gb Ethernet to my router. They're brilliant, very expensive, very high quality devices. I use them only for devices which I can't hardwired, because even 1Gb Ethernet smokes them in actual real-world use.

jeffbee•2h ago

> wipe the floor with real-world Wi-Fi 7 speeds.

I see that you have never tried this. By the way, Mac Migration Assistant doesn't need Wi-Fi infrastructure at all.

kstrauser•1h ago

Sure have, within the last 2 weeks when I helped a coworker migrate to a new machine! Both were November 2024 MacBook Pros, so Apple's current top-of-the-line laptops.

Running over Wi-Fi dragged on interminably and we gave up several hours in. When we scrounged up a could of USB Ethernet dongles and started over, it took about an hour.

So yeah, my own personal experience confirms exactly what I'd expect: Wi-Fi is slow and high-latency compared to Ethernet, and you should always use hardwired connections when you care about stability and performance more than portability. By all means, use Wi-Fi for routine laptop mobility. If you have the option, definitely run a cable to your stationary desktop computers, game consoles, set-top boxes, NASes, and everything else within reach of a switch.

tass•3h ago

My isp-supplied router had 10gbe on both wan and lan sides. I swapped it for my own, but that is what modern consumer equipment looks like.

You can find a 2 port 10gbe+4 port 2.5gbe switch for just over $30 on Amazon.

If the run isn’t too long this can all run over cat5. Handily beats wifi especially for reliability but Thunderbolt is fastest if you only have 2 machines to link.

kllrnohj•2h ago

I have a U7 Pro XGS hooked up to a Pro HD 24 POE switch (all 2.5gb ports or faster).

The only way I've managed to convince any Wifi 7 client to exceed 1gbps is by freshly connecting to it over 6ghz while standing physically within arm's reach of the AP. That's it. That's the only time it can exceed 1gbps.

In all other scenarios it's well under 1gbps, often more like 300-500mbps. Which is great for wifi, but still quite below the cheapest ethernet ports around. And 6ghz client behavior across OS's (Windows, MacOS, iOS, and Android) is so bad at roaming that I actually end up just disabling it entirely. The only thing it can do is generate bragging rights screenshots, in actual use it's basically entirely DOA.

And that's ignoring that ~$200 N150 NUCs come with 2.5gbps ethernet now.

tryauuum•2h ago

even with 1Gbit/s ethernet, measure latency. It will be smaller and more predictable than any wifi you can have.

p_j_w•2h ago

>Ethernet [...] has not improved substantially in consumer devices since the previous century.

We've gone from 100 Mbps being standard consumer level to 2.5 or 10 Gbps being standard now. That sounds substantial to me.

jeffbee•2h ago

There is not any meaningful sense in which 2.5gb ethernet is "standard". There are no TVs with 2.5gb ethernet ports. Or even 1gb ports. Yet they all have WiFi 5 or better.

dpark•1h ago

In practical terms, WiFi 5 is slower than 1gb Ethernet.

It is bizarre that they are putting 100mbps Ethernet ports on TVs though.

baby_souffle•1h ago

> It is bizarre that they are putting 100mbps Ethernet ports on TVs though.

It's a few pennies cheaper and i'm sure they have some data showing 70%+ will just use WiFi. TCL in particular doesn't even have very good/stable drivers for their 10/100 NIC; there's a ton of people on the Home Assistant forums that have noticed that their android powered smart TV will just ... stop working / responding on the network until it's rebooted.

dpark•23m ago

I’m sure you’re right, but the fact that it’s almost certainly literal pennies makes it very lame. Lack of stable drivers is also ridiculous given how long gbps Ethernet has been around.

esseph•30m ago

Home user CPE we install have multiple 2.5G Ethernet ports.

lxgr•1h ago

Compared to what?

avree•3h ago

Unfortunately, Unifi only supports DFS channels (which is the only real way for 'each device to have its own wifi channel in a crowded area) on some of their models.

esseph•31m ago

What unifi AP doesn't support DFS?

Sometimes DFS certification comes after general device approval, but I'm not aware of any that just flat out doesn't support it. It supported it 10+ years ago.

mlinhares•3h ago

Yeah, we built our home and i made sure whenever there would be devices on the wall there was an ethernet cable there, best decision ever.

GeorgeTirebiter•2h ago

yes, and... convenience says 'use WiFi'. No wires! I've said, if it moves - wireless. If it doesn't -- wired. Counterexamples that 'work': AM / FM / TV / Paging big transmitters to simple/cheap receivers. For the 1-way case, that works. But for 2-way....

paulddraper•2h ago

There are two kinds of networks: wireless networks and reliable networks.

Wired connection is an absolute hack.

lxgr•1h ago

I hear people say this often, but when you look into what they actually mean, it's often a comparison of having a single mediocre ISP CPE in a corner of an apartment, at most with a wireless repeater in another, vs. Ethernet. Of course the wire wins in that comparison.

Now put an access point into every room and wire them to the router, and things start looking very differently.

ipython•2h ago

> the best way to speed up your Wi-Fi is to not use it.

So true!

Other tips I’ve found useful:

Separate 2.4ghz network for only IoT devices. They tend to have terrible WiFi chipsets and use older WiFi standards. Slower speed = more airtime used for the same amount of data. This way the “slow” IoT devices don’t interfere with your faster devices which…

Faster devices such as laptops and phones belong on 5ghz only network, if you’re able to get enough coverage. Prefer wired backhaul and more access points, as you’re better off with a device talking on another channel to an ap closer to it rather than tieing up airtime with lots of retries to a far away ap (which impacts all the other clients also trying to talk to that ap)

WiFi is super solid at our house but it took some tweaking and wiring everything that doesn’t move.

rbranson•1h ago

> It's a much better answer to hook up everything on Ethernet that you possibly can than it is to follow the more traveled route of more channels and more congestion with mesh Wi-Fi.

Certainly this is the brute-force way to do it and can work if you can run enough UTP everywhere. As a counterexample, I went all-in on WiFi and have 5 access points with dedicated backhauls. This is in SF too, so neighbors are right up against us. I have ~60 devices on the WiFi and have no issues, with fast roaming handoff, low jitter, and ~500Mbit up/down. I built this on UniFi, but I suspect Eero PoE gear could get you pretty close too, given how well even their mesh backhaul gear performs.

xmprt•1h ago

I'm not super familiar with SF construction materials but I wonder if that plays a part in it too? If your neighbors are separated by concrete walls then you're probably getting less interference from them than you'd think and your mesh might actually work better(?)... but what do I know since I'm no networking engineer.

rbranson•1h ago

It's all wood construction, originally stick victorians with 2x4 exterior walls. My "loudest" neighbor is being picked up on 80MHz at -47 dBm.

sidewndr46•1h ago

you have five access points and 60 devices? How many square feet are you trying to cover?

lxgr•1h ago

> You might think it's convenient to have your TV connect to Netflix via WiFi and it is, but it is going to make everything else that really needs the Wi-Fi slower.

TV streaming seems like a bad example, since it's usually much lower average bandwidth than e.g. a burst of mobile app updates installing with equal priority on the network as as soon as a phone is plugged in for charging, or starting a cloud photo backup.

vel0city•1h ago

Kind of true, but potentially also untrue. If that TV is running a crappy WiFi chip running an older WiFi standard on the same channel, it'll end up performing worse or not playing as nice with other clients during those bursts of buffering. That'll potentially be seen by other clients as little bursts of jitter.

That's true of any client with older and crappier WiFi chips though, but TVs are such a race to the bottom when it comes to performance in so many other things.

drob518•1h ago

That tip about not using it also works with Ethernet and other technologies, BTW.

BadBadJellyBean•31m ago

I wish I could put Ethernet everywhere but I live in a German apartment in a German house and here walls are massive and made out of brick and concrete. Routing cables through this without it being a massive eyesore is pretty hard.

molszanski•22m ago

Try Powerline. This €40 device will turn your electrical sockets into an 100-500 mbps Ethernet cable. Simple and efficient. Just check if sockets you want to connect are on the same circuit breaker. If yes, chances are really high it would work very well.

I’ve connected a switch and a second access point with mine.

Also I think they work best if there fewer of them on the same circuit. But not sure. Check first.

semiquaver•3h ago

The thing about speed tests causing a bad experience because they hog airtime felt like a non sequitur (since performing them is rare and manual) until I saw this:

  > Many ISPs, device manufacturers, and consumers automate periodic, high-intensity speed tests that negatively impact the consumer internet experience as demonstrated

But there’s no support for this claim presented frankly I am skeptical. What WiFi devices are regularly conducting speed tests without being asked?

thewebguyd•3h ago

> What WiFi devices are regularly conducting speed tests without being asked?

ISP provided routers, at least Xfinity does. I've gotten emails from them (before I ripped out their equipment and put my own in) "Great news, you're getting more than your plan's promised speeds" with speedtest results in the email, because they ran speed tests at like 3AM.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's happening often across all the residential ISPs, most likely for marketing purposes.

kjkjadksj•3h ago

I have noticed Spectrum internet shits the bed at 12:30am pretty reliably.

typpilol•3h ago

Really? My spectrum has been super reliable in Michigan. Way better than when I had Comcast here

gm678•2h ago

Pretty sure Verizon does this as well, when I had a tech come out he had access to historical speed test results from my router (I didn't ask any questions about it at the time so don't have any more info).

lxgr•1h ago

That would be a speedtest between the router/modem and CMTS then, not one between a Wi-Fi connected device and the ISP, no?

esseph•3h ago

Ubiquiti UniFi used to, I don't know if it still does.

pbronez•3h ago

It’s configurable

nativeit•3h ago

At least in my UniFi instance, this is only done when manually triggered, but I seem to recall a setting where it could be automatically updated daily.

joshstrange•3h ago

Eero does this automatically (mine says it was last run 2 days ago at 5:08am) and I had software on my DD-WRT router (OpenLede) that did it, though obviously not many people (overall) are running that.

I used to run a docker than ran a speed test every hour and graphed the results but I haven't done that in a while now.

jeffbee•3h ago

Google Nest access points do this, but they do it only when networks are idle, so I fail to see the negative consequences.

dlcarrier•1h ago

DOCSIS cable modems perform perform regularly scheduled tests, but it's only between devices, and shouldn't affect available bandwidth, because there's far more bandwidth within the DOCSIS network than between the network and the Internet.

lxgr•1h ago

> there's far more bandwidth within the DOCSIS network than between the network and the Internet.

Really? DOCSIS has been the bottleneck out of Wi-Fi, DOCSIS, and wider Internet every time I've had the misfortune of having to use it in an apartment.

Especially the tiny uplink frequency slice of DOCSIS 3 and below is pathetic.

ttshaw1•3h ago

I don't get what the point of the article is. Is the takeaway that I should lower the channel width in my home? How many WAPs would I need to be running for that to matter? I'd argue it's more important to get everyone to turn down TX power in cases where your neighbors in an apartment building are conflicting. And that's never going to happen, so just conform to the legal limit and your SNR should be fine. Anything that needs to be high performance shouldn't be on wifi anyway.

If you want to spend a really long time optimizing your wifi, this is the resource: https://www.wiisfi.com/

jerf•2h ago

This sort of thing is definitely in the class of "are you experiencing problems? if not don't worry about it".

If you are experiencing problems, this might give you an angle to think about that you hadn't otherwise, if you just naively assume Wifi is as good as a dedicated wire. Modern Wifi has an awful lot of resources, though. I only notice degradation of any kind when I have one computer doing a full-speed transfer for quite a while to another, but that's a pretty exceptional case and not one I'm going to run any more wires around for for something that happens less than once a month.

tetris11•1h ago

I lose wifi signal consistently in my bedroom on my 80Mhz wide 5Ghz wifi.

I just now reduced it to 20Mhz, and though there is a (slight) perceptible drop in latency, those 5 extra dB I gained from Signal/Noise have given me wifi in the bedroom again

operator-name•46m ago

Wow, that is an awesome resource and something I wish I knew about earlier!

725686•2h ago

"The average US household has 21 Wi-Fi devices"... wtf?

lynndotpy•2h ago

And that's not to mention everything else on the 2.4GHz band :) Bluetooth, zigbee, your microwave, etc

MrZander•2h ago

That seems very high to me. A family of four each has 5 devices connected at the same time?

paxys•2h ago

Smartphone, laptop, tablet, watch - that's 4 already. And this isn't just counting personal devices. Include TV, streaming stick, game console, printers, bulbs, plugs, speakers, doorbell, security cameras, thermostat and you'll hit that number pretty quick.

kllrnohj•2h ago

Check your network and see how many wifi devices you have. I'm up to 60+ thanks to a handful of IoT devices, smart speakers, etc... It adds up quick.

drob518•38m ago

Most of your mobile devices are doing background tasks. It’s not typically high bandwidth stuff, but they are connected even when you aren’t using them.

IshKebab•2h ago

Doesn't seem unreasonable. Look at your router. I have 17 and I would say we're a totally normal household - the kids don't even have phones yet.

We have 2 phones, a tablet for the kids, a couple of Google homes, a Chromecast, 2 yoto players, a printer, a smart TV, 2 laptops, a raspberry pi, a solar power Inverter, an Oculus Quest, and a couple of things that have random hostnames.

It adds up.

isaacdl•2h ago

I live alone, and just counted, I have 10 in regular use. A few more that can connect to WiFi but aren’t (why would I want my tower fans on the internet, anyway?)

I had probably 20 prior to swapping out some smart light bulbs and switches for Zigbee.

21 for an average household isn’t nuts.

gnabgib•2h ago

Doesn't take long to add up. Family of 4 - every phone, including prior generation which might be off in a draw: 3-8

Router, and extenders (multi floor house): 1-4

Smart doorbell/light switch/temperature sensor/weather station/co2|co detector/flood detector/bulb/led strip/led light/nanoleaf/garage door: 4-16

Some cars: 0-2

Some smart watches speak wifi: 0-4

Computers.. maybe the desktops are wired (likely still support wifi), all laptops, chromebooks, and tablets : 3-8

All game consoles, many TVs, some computer monitors: 3-8

Some smart appliances: 0-4 (based on recent news of ads, best to aim for 0)

tempestn•2h ago

34 devices connected to my router at the moment, 8 wired and 26 wifi. About 8 of the wifi devices are phones, tablets, and laptops; the rest are various iot things: locks, plugs, alarm, thermostat, water heater, doorbell, etc.

seemaze•2h ago

I just checked;

I currently have 23, my parent's house has 19

People have all kinds of stuff on wifi these days - cameras, light bulbs, dishwashers, irrigation, solar, hifi..

rdschouw•44m ago

I got 28 online right now according to my Eero. 3 people, with smartphones and laptops. Several game consoles, a few Apple TVs and music streaming devices, Ring camera, Zwave Hub, printer, washing machine, garage opener, Ring doorbell and an assortment of Echo dots.

drob518•36m ago

Yep. And each of your neighbors also has that many devices and you’re all sharing the same channels.

rpcope1•1h ago

Honestly what's unsaid in a lot of this is that it would be really nice if there were more and wider ISM bands. So much makes use of 900Mhz, 2.4GHz and 5GHz in novel and innovative ways, that if the government and FCC really actually wanted to spark innovation including augmenting wifi performance, they'd stop letting telcos and other questionable interests hoard spectrum and release it as ISM (and no, they shouldn't steal from ham bands to make ISM bands either).

esseph•26m ago

The only way forward is new frequencies and larger blocks of spectrum.

lxgr•1h ago

> Many ISPs, device manufacturers, and consumers automate periodic, high-intensity speed tests that negatively impact the consumer internet experience as demonstrated.

Is that actually a thing? Why would any ISP intentionally add unnecessary load to their network?

sidewndr46•1h ago

I've only met around 10 people that even know what a speed test is. I'm not sure how most consumers would even go about automating one. What would be the first step?

somanyphotons•1h ago

Is there a good guide on what the right things to do are?

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Comments

How to save the world with ZFS and 12 USB sticks: 4th anniversary video (2011)

I built physical album cards with NFC tags to teach my son music discovery

Show HN: Semantic search over the National Gallery of Art

Does our “need for speed” make our wi-fi suck?

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Show HN: A Digital Twin of my coffee roaster that runs in the browser

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NanoMi: Source-available transmission electron microscope

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