> Synaptic connections mediate classical intercellular communication in the brain. However, recent data have demonstrated the existence of noncanonical routes of interneuronal communication mediating the transport of materials including calcium, mitochondria, and pathogenic proteins such as amyloid beta (Aβ). Using super-resolution and electron microscopy, Chang et al. identified and characterized structures called nanotubular bridges that connect dendrites in the brain (see the Perspective by Budinger and Heneka). These bridges mediate the transport of calcium ions, small molecules, and Aβ peptides, and may contribute to the spreading and accumulation of pathological Aβ in Alzheimer’s disease. —Mattia Maroso
But they say they used ML analysis too in the abstract
> Using super-resolution microscopy,25 we characterized their unique molecular composition and dynamics in dissociated neurons,26 enabling Ca 2+ propagation over distances. Utilizing imaging and machine-learning-based27 analysis, we confirmed the in situ presence of DNTs connecting dendrites to other dendrites28 whose anatomical features are distinguished from synaptic dendritic spines
"Discovery of quantum vibrations in 'microtubules' inside brain neurons supports controversial theory of consciousness"
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.h...
On the second point of QM in biology more generally tho, this research is interesting: https://arxiv.org/html/2409.03497v1
Maybe it's just the timing by coincidence, but the greater amount of study in/around the brain during and since the pandemic has been encouraging.
I have since come to view it more as an interesting lesson in the pitfalls of hypothesis formation, popular non-fiction, and vanity.
Even so, as a layperson, it's entirely understandable to perk up whenever someone discovers 'tubules' in the brain, even if none of that sufficiently supports any of the collapse requirements of the Penrose/Hammeroff quantum microtubes.
The research on what we can see and learn in the brain is remarkable in the last 10 years. fMRI alone is staggering.
Your question seems to be one of enough resolution. The brain continues to get more attention in greater and greater resolution.
There seems to me more research in the area which is encouraging too.
I don't get the feeling your'e really interested in it other than looking at where the research is occurring and building from where and how you want to see it. Time will tell either way.
Altman Gave GPT Alzheimer's Disease to Spread Awareness
But vindication of Orch OR specifically (microtubule-based quantum gravity collapses driving consciousness) not yet.
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsta.1998.025...
Neurons found in the CNS have tubles large enough to allow transport of ions and even relatively large polypeptides similar to, but more permissive than, the well-known gap junctions found between smooth muscle and cardiac muscle cells.
Penrose's hypothesis is crank science about quantum gravity messing with your CNS in a way comparable to "body thetans" in Scientology.
Just say that Penrose is a crank is way off chart in my opinion
More importantly, these are transporting things that can plausibly impact other neurons, instead of possibly interacting with things that are far too small to ever impact a neuron in any way we've ever seen before (AKA without magic).
IMHO, this vindicates Penrose and Hamerhoff in no way whatsoever; nonetheless, I'm sure there will be a flood of YouTube videos subtly conflating the two senses of the term "nanotube" in order to promote the idea of a universal noosphere that ties us all together through the magic of quantum entanglement and positive vibes. Fun...
(More on topic: anyone with access to Science know why these are called "nanotubes" if they transport things in the micrometer range? Microtubules are named for their length, but it doesn't really make sense in reverse to have a tube 1000 times as wide as it is long... Maybe they're elastic? Or does "nano" just mean "really small" here?)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221137971...
And you’re talking about transporting “things” and microtubules are not about transporting things in Penrose theory, but rather serving as quantum machines that are linked across the brain.
https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/Q9UQ16/entry
And let’s just say my experience of reality, or my consciousness, is quite unusual. My gene polymorphisms in DNM3 are linked to obsessive compulsive disorder, which I have.
Like Penrose said, I believe our consciousness is an electromagnetic field, and not anything solid, but rather a femoral and affected by electromagnetic forces inside and outside of our brain
Many thousands of incredible scientists have done amazing work over the past ~century, but cutting-edge neuroscience still doesn't have the conceptual tools to go much farther than "when you look at apples this part of your cortex is more active, so we'll call this the Apple Zone".
Sadly/happily, I personally think there's good reason to think that this will change in our lifetime, which mean's we can all find out if trading the medicalization of mental health treatment (i.e. progressing beyond symptom-based guess-and-check) for governmental access to actual lie detecting helmets (i.e. dystopia) is worth it...
I genuinely wouldn't.
It's how little energy the brain uses, especially for learning. The brain seems to be hundreds of thousands to millions of times more energy efficient than any kind of current AI on a classical computer, not to mention still beating it in terms of performance and versatility. Transistors do not use millions of times more energy than synapses, and processor feature sizes are not millions of times larger. Something else is going on.
Either the brain is leveraging QC or our AI training algorithms are just really really horrible compared to whatever is happening in biology. Maybe biology found learning methods that work thousands of times better than differential backpropagation.
https://www.pbs.org/video/was-penrose-right-new-evidence-for...
Just cause we don’t understand it yet does not mean it’s not possible.
We understand quantum interactions more than sufficiently enough to know that the thread of hope he clings to, the soul of the gaps via quantum woo, is not in any way plausible. It is comparable to a perpetual motion machine.
I don't know about that... I've consumed quite a few calories in my lifetime directly, plus there is all the energy needed for me to live in a modern civilization and make the source material available to me for learning (schools, libraries, internet) and I still only have a minuscule fraction of the information in my head that a modern LLM does after a few months of training.
Translated into KWh, I've used very roughly 50,000 KWh just in terms of food calories... but a modern human uses between 20x and 200x as much energy in supporting infrastructure than the food calories they consume, so we're at about 1 to 10 GWh, which according to GPT5 is in the ballpark for what it took to train GPT3 or GPT4... GPT5 itself needing about 25x to 30x as much energy to train... certainly not 100s of thousands to millions of times as much. And again, these LLMs have a lot more information encoded into them available for nearly instant response than even the smartest human does, so we're not really comparing apples with apples here.
In short, while I wouldn't rule out that the brain uses quantum effects somehow, I don't think there's any spectacular energy-efficiency there to bolster that argument.
searine•2h ago
bbor•24m ago
:(