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The Trinary Dream Endures

https://www.robinsloan.com/lab/trinary-dream/
26•FromTheArchives•2h ago

Comments

jacobmarble•2h ago
In digital circuits there’s “high”, “low”, and “high impedance”.
gblargg•48m ago
There's low-impedance and high-impedance. Within low-impedance, there's high and low.
marshfram•2h ago
Analog is next. Software first, then build the machines. No more models, reductions, loss. Direct perception through measurement and differences.
cluckindan•1h ago
Analog was before, though. General computing was never realized using those architectures; granted, they were mechanical in nature, so that is a big ask, both figuratively and literally.

Maybe we could create continuous-valued electrical computers, but at least state, stability and error detection are going to be giant hurdles. Also, programming GUIs from Gaussian splats sounds like fun in the negative sense.

estimator7292•1h ago
You've just described vacuum tube computers as well as all the early transistorized computers. Digital computing is a relatively late concept
mcnamaratw•59m ago
Of course there were analog 'computers' but vacuum tubes were also used to realize digital computers in the early days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum-tube_computer

marshfram•1h ago
You have to withdraw from the binary in all senses to begin to imagine what an analog spatial differences measurement could function as.

Again, think software first. The brain is always a byproduct of the processes, though it is discerned as a materialist operation.

Think big, binary computers are toys in the gran scheme of things.

bastawhiz•28m ago
We'd need a real breakthrough in physics to have such a technology that works at a scale even remotely comparable to what a low end digital CPU can do today. The thing is, there's not even any real evidence (at least to my knowledge) that there are useful threads that researchers know to pull on that could yield such a technology. Emulating analog hardware with digital hardware in anticipation of some kind of breakthrough isn't going to have any material benefits in the short to medium term.
hyperhello•2h ago
Well, maybe.
bee_rider•2h ago
> Trinary didn’t make any headway in the 20th century; binary’s direct mapping to the “on”/”off” states of electric current was just too effective, or seductive; but remember that electric current isn’t actually “on” or “off”. It has taken a ton of engineering to “simulate” those abstract states in real, physical circuits, especially as they have gotten smaller and smaller.

But, I think things are actually trending the other way, right? You just slam the voltage to “on” or “off” nowadays—as things get smaller, voltages get lower, and clock times get faster, it gets harder to resolve the tiny voltage differences.

Maybe you can slam to -1. OTOH, just using 2 bits instead of one... trit(?) seems easier.

Same reason the “close window” button is in the corner. Hitting a particular spot requires precision in 1 or 2 dimensions. Smacking into the boundary is easy.

estimator7292•1h ago
Once we invented CMOS this problem pretty much went away. You can indeed just slam the transistor open and closed.

Well, until we scaled transistors down to the point where electrons quantum tunnel across the junction. Now they're leaky again.

hinkley•1h ago
The lower voltage helps reduce leakage and capacitance in the chip as the wires get closer together.

But it does argue against more states due to the benefits of just making 1 smaller if you can and packing things closer. Though maybe we are hitting the bottom with Dennard scaling being dead. Maybe we increase pitch and double state on parts of the chip, and then generations are measured by bits per angstrom.

SteveJS•2h ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer
pumplekin•1h ago
I've always thought we could put a bit of general purpose TCAM into general purpose computers instead of just routers and switches, and see what people can do with it.

I know (T)CAM's are used in CPU's, but I am nore thinking of the kind of research being done with TCAM's in SSD like products, so maybe we will get there some day.

hinkley•1h ago
There’s a lot of tech in signaling that doesn’t end up on CPUs and I’ve often wondered why.

Some of it is ending up in power circuitry.

cyberax•19m ago
TCAM still uses 2-bit binary storage internally, it just ignores one of the values.
russdill•1h ago
There's a ton of places in modern silicon where a voltage represents far more than just on or off. From the 16 levels of QLC to the various PAM technologies used by modern interconnects
hinkley•1h ago
I’ve wondered any number of times if 4 level gates would be useful to increase cache memory in CPUs. They aren’t great for logic, but how much decoding would they need to expand an L3 cache?
DiggyJohnson•54m ago
What is PAM in this context?
saxonww•47m ago
Pulse amplitude modulation
DiggyJohnson•15m ago
Thanks. That’s a deep rabbit hole upon initial glances to say the least
anon291•1h ago
Mapping the three trinary values to yes no and maybe is semantic rubbish
DiggyJohnson•55m ago
This is off topic but how do you build and post to that blog? Homegrown or framework?
mikewarot•47m ago
Transistors are generally at their lowest static power dissipation if the are either fully on or off. The analog middle is great if you're trying to process continuous values, but then you're going to be forced to use a bias current to hold on in the middle, which is ok if that's the nature of the circuit.

A chip with billions of transistors can't reasonably work if most of them are in the analog mode, it'll just melt to slag, unless you have an amazing cooling system.

Also consider that there is only one threshold between values on a binary system. With a trinary system you would likely have to double the power supply voltage, and thus quadruple the power required just to maintain noise margins.

ChrisMarshallNY•44m ago
I seem to remember reading about "fuzzy logic" (a now-quaint term), where a trinary state was useful.
zer00eyz•7m ago
"One feature that sets certain rice cookers above the rest is “fuzzy logic,” or the ability of an onboard computer to detect how quickly the rice is cooking or to what level doneness it has reached, then make real time adjustments to time and temperature accordingly. " ... From: https://www.bonappetit.com/story/zojirushi-rice-cooker

It is a term that is still quite a fair bit for marketing. I think in this case (zojirushi) it isn't trinary, rather some probalistic/baysian system to derive a boolean from a number of factors (time, temp, and so on).

gyomu•39m ago
> Trinary is philosophically appealing because its ground-floor vocabulary isn’t “yes” and “no”, but rather: “yes”, “no”, and “maybe”. It’s probably a bit much to imagine that this architectural difference could cascade up through the layers of abstraction and tend to produce software with subtler, richer values … yet I do imagine it.

You can just have a struct { case yes; case no; case maybe; } data structure and pepper it throughout your code wherever you think it’d lead to subtler, richer software… sure, it’s not “at the hardware level” (whatever that means given today’s hardware abstractions) but that should let you demonstrate whatever proof of utility you want to demonstrate.

bastawhiz•36m ago
Trinary is an efficient way of storing lots of -1/0/1 machine learning model weights. But as soon as you load it into memory, you need RAM that can store the same thing (or you're effectively losing the benefits: storage is cheap). So now you need trinary RAM, which as it turns out, isn't great for doing normal general purpose computation with. Integers and floats and boolean values don't get stored efficiently in trinary unless you toss out power of two sized values. CPU circuitry becomes more complicated to add/subtract/multiply those values. Bitwise operators in trinary become essentially impossible for the average IQ engineer to reason about. We need all new IAs, assembly languages, compilers, languages that can run efficiently without the operations that trinary machines can't perform well, etc.

So do we have special memory and CPU instructions for trinary data that lives in a special trinary address space, separate from traditional data that lives in binary address space? No, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. There's no compelling evidence this would make anything better overall: faster, smaller, more energy efficient. Every improvement that trinary potentially offers results in having to throw babies out with the bathwater. It's fun to think about I guess, but I'd bet real money that in 50 years we're still having the same conversation about trinary.

adamthegoalie•20m ago
ChatGPT 5-Pro, What would it be like if we used trinary instead of binary computers? https://chatgpt.com/s/t_68f53bb9b15c8191b8d732f722243719
Nevermark•12m ago
Ternary is indeed an enticing, yet ultimately flawed dream.

Quaternary allows for:

  True, “Yes”

  False, “No”

  Undetermined, “Maybe”, True or False

  Contradiction, “Invalid”, True and False
Many people don’t know this, but all modern computers are quaternary, with 4 quaternit bytes. We don’t just let anyone in on that. Too much power, too much footgun jeopardy, for the unwashed masses and Python “programmers”.
readthenotes1•8m ago
I've liked true, false, unknown, unknowable--though think there should be a something somewhere for fnord.

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