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Nursing excluded as 'professional' degree by Department of Education

https://nurse.org/news/nursing-excluded-as-professional-degree-dept-of-ed/
105•ourmandave•1h ago

Comments

blinded•1h ago
Regressive. Divinity on the list, but not nursing and advance nursing degrees.
kace91•1h ago
chiropractors also have an origin in pseudoscience, they have sort of evolved into scientific studies in many ways but part of the quackery remains.
wahnfrieden•56m ago
Chiropractic was taught to its founder by a ghost
jeffbee•43m ago
So you're saying it belongs under divinity?
gscott•39m ago
The ghost wasn't holy
drivebyhooting•15m ago
That’s funny.

But when Ramanujan says 1 + 2 + 3 + … = -1/12 because god told him we accept that as a reasonable explanation.

loeg•49m ago
In what way are they anything but quacks?
cjbgkagh•28m ago
They have more scope to experiment, in my case it was a way for me to access PRP injections before wider adoption. They are paid rather orthography to treatment, they can treat other things while also giving you regular spinal adjustments - similar to the idea that researchers should be paid to teach as paying them to research will pollute the research. We need a way to continue paying dentists so they can stop finding ‘soft spots’ that don’t exist.

I dislike the quackery but traditional science isn’t free from it either. I wish everyone was rational, evidence based and disinterested (as in not having a particular interest on biasing an outcome). But the world we live in is far from that. Consider the percentage of ‘normal’ medical doctors in Germany who believe in homeopathy. A large part of that is due to the terrain school of thought in medicine which lost out to germ theory. An artifact of history rather than rational people and rational study. I’m still looking for a better way the phrase it; but it seems to me that the belief in the belief of science far exceeds the actual belief in science.

If doctors / medical researchers really were so good at research they wouldn’t have taken so long to rediscover the ancient practice of prolotherapy.

loeg•15m ago
> in my case it was a way for me to access PRP injections before wider adoption

So they are not only quacks, but also grifters? The evidence for PRP is basically non-existent. It doesn't hold up in RCTs: https://www.jwatch.org/na54355/2021/12/27/evidence-against-p...

(To be fair, chiros are not unique in grifting PRP -- I've seen traditional doctors selling it too.)

> Consider the percentage of ‘normal’ medical doctors in Germany who believe in homeopathy.

I hadn't heard of this, but, yeah, that's also quackery. Wild. 32% of German GPs report "using" homeopathy once a week. The US medical system may have some problems, but at least believing in homeopathy isn't one of them.

cjbgkagh•4m ago
I had a limp from an injury that persisted for 8 years before PRP cleared it up in 3 months. I would have gotten the French sucrose injections earlier but France was a far way off and I couldn’t afford it at the time. I put it in the bucket of prolotherapy not in the bucket of stem cells and on that basis it absolutely works. Being a substance derived from the patient allows it to skip over regulatory hurdles, as mentioned I would have taken sucrose but that wasn’t on offer.
drivebyhooting•29m ago
Meanwhile when seeking treatment for pain with western medicine:

* first see a GP, no real diagnosis.

* get an ultrasound - everyone already knows it won’t show anything of use but insurance companies require this escalation path

* get an xray - same as above

* maybe if you insist get an MRI.

* regardless the treatment is the same: go to a PT’s office.

the_af•4m ago
That's an artifact of the health system (as an economic/insurance system), not of medicine itself. Chiropractors are different, the problem with them isn't the bureaucracy of insurance.

Conflating medicine with how health systems work in some countries is a serious error.

kragen•53m ago
The professions are traditionally divinity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinity_(academic_discipline)), medicine, and law, so I don't see how you could remove divinity from the list. When you argue for including nursing as a "professional degree", what you're arguing is that it belongs to the category exemplified by those three instances.
shermantanktop•51m ago
yes, the 13th century POV is very important.
kragen•49m ago
Without the 13th-century POV in question, the distinction becomes meaningless.
yibg•40m ago
Why? Can we not define what a professional degree is without the historical baggage?
kragen•36m ago
You could make up a new category and call it by the same name as the old category, if what you wanted was to confuse people and make clear thinking more difficult. If you want to define a category without historical baggage, I would prefer that you used a different term so that it was clear that you weren't talking about the concept laden with that baggage.
Jensson•18m ago
I don't think many associate the term with the historical baggage here, so its you who are confusing others by using it that way rather than the opposite.
kragen•16m ago
They may not be consciously aware of it, but that makes them more likely to be influenced by it, not less. Having unexamined opinions generally means having self-contradictory opinions, which makes you easy to manipulate.

Moreover, the Department of Education is clearly using the term in the sense I am describing, about whose further historical development you can read more in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession.

Jensson•8m ago
> Moreover, the Department of Education is clearly using the term in the sense I am describing

But that change will confuse people since it has been a professional degree for a long time now. Using ancient definitions causes confusion, it doesn't resolve it.

asddubs•36m ago
maybe we should include alchemy in the list then
cpburns2009•33m ago
Ever heard of Chemistry?
Jensson•15m ago
Chemistry is not alchemy and astronomy is not astrology and philosophy is not divinity.
RobRivera•40m ago
Is this sarcasm?
BigTTYGothGF•30m ago
And people say the humanities aren't important....
koakuma-chan•39m ago
What is divinity?
op00to•38m ago
Fairy tales
kragen•37m ago
Edited into parent.
cpburns2009•35m ago
A masters level degree in Christian theology. Traditional Christian denominations require it to be a priest or pastor.
api•34m ago
Is nursing not medicine?
Jcampuzano2•31m ago
Wtf does tradition have to do with it?

Why the hell does a large portion of this country give a rats ass about tradition, but also larp as caring about progress and effectiveness. These two are logically inconsistent.

If anything we should be removing more traditions than ever.

kragen•25m ago
Word meanings are determined purely by tradition. There isn't an objective reality about what words do or don't mean apart from how people use them. If you make up your own definitions for words instead of using the traditional ones, you sacrifice the possibility of communication with people who don't know your definitions. That's glory for you!
the_af•7m ago
Words change meaning and definitions drift all the time. Language isn't static and adapts to modern times.

Besides, this bizarre tangent about tradition ignores that this has some very practical downsides for nurses, it's not just about preserving tradition or whatnot.

caretak3r•28m ago
Divinity. What a crude waste of time.
sunkeeh•25m ago
The problem is the "traditionally" part. What merit does tradition have? None.
kragen•23m ago
Of course tradition has no real merit on its own, but studying the same linguistic tradition is what enables two people to communicate by using language. Unless you manage to complete John Wilkins's project, perhaps, and eliminate the arbitrariness of Wilkins's decisions.

However, in this conversation, we are speaking English, whose words owe their meaning entirely to tradition.

Jensson•13m ago
> However, in this conversation, we are speaking English, whose words owe their meaning entirely to tradition.

The meaning of words change over time, so you are wrong, words meaning are not entirely from tradition or else their meaning would not change.

Or if you agree that traditions can change, then what the word meant year 1300 doesn't matter, things has changed since then.

supportengineer•1h ago
I heard they are getting rid of the Department of Education anyway.
softwaredoug•1h ago
Seems fairly regressive to health care costs for everyone.
bgm1975•57m ago
…so tracks for America.
stackskipton•1h ago
Just to note, this is probably American Medical Association lobby change since it impacts graduate nurse programs so not RNs but Physician Assistants/Nurse Practitioners and like.
gsf_emergency_6•1h ago
Graduate programs in some domains tend to be a relatively affordable way to insure against opportunity risks (nursing, not divinity)

The context is some interpretations of Baumol effect, as discussed here for the very parallel case of childcare

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45956525

Wistar•1h ago
Good grief.
gnarlouse•1h ago
Class warfare
micromacrofoot•58m ago
there's been nursing shortage for my whole life, what the hell is wrong with people? why can't we take care of each other
PLenz•47m ago
Because if there us a nursing shortage there is opportunity to 'supplement' existing nurses with AI and thus transfer more wealth to the very richest among us
Dusseldorf•27m ago
This doesn't make much sense to me. As the previous commenter mentioned, this shortage has been ongoing for decades, it's certainly not new in the last two years. Additionally, nursing is one of the jobs least replaceable by AI.

There's a nursing shortage because the work is brutal, under appreciated, and under compensated aside from travel nursing gigs, for those who can maintain that sort of lifestyle. Nurses are a cost center, so management is constantly running floors understaffed. It's to the point that they receive bonuses for running the floor as thin as possible, despite the worsening of patient outcomes and nurses' sanity.

Don't get me wrong, there are some good gigs for sure, but there are lots of terrible ones.

jmclnx•45m ago
Anything to give the for profit medical and insurance industry an excuse to cut nurse's wages. So transparent.
jallonclone•27m ago
As I've explained to my NP colleagues (ones that have already completed school), this actually helps them (the impending oversupply threatens NP wages, as some of them are already having trouble finding the job they want since the 45 different APP degree offerings create an unrestricted supply). And while this might discourage some people from entering nursing, that will again only decrease the supply, which will increase the wages since you cannot replace nurses. But that would be a bad thing, as hospitals are already in a crunch trying to find nurses and pay them fairly (a large and different discussion).

On the physician side, there's definitely big changes coming, and I'm banking on a move to up-front APPs and a few remote physicians overseeing things. But I'm actually also seeing a number of entities that hired a bunch of APPs and are now moving back to physicians only and saving money doing do (think urgent care, ED, inpatient), though some specialties work very efficiently with a primary APP or co-management model, particularly the procedural ones.

deepsun•16m ago
> impending oversupply

Why? As you said, hospitals have a hard time finding nurses (undersupply), so more nurses would be better for patients and hospitals. An influx of more nurses could ease the undersupply, but I don't see why it would necessary overcome it completely and even lead to the impeding oversupply.

jallonclone•13m ago
I'm talking about an oversupply of APPs (most NPs and related degrees), not nurses. Nurses are currently in short supply (hence the travel nurse phenomenon where some of them are paid more than physicians).
pfannkuchen•39m ago
It seems like there has probably been a lot of scope creep in the nursing role due to the artificially induced doctor shortage. Wonder if the de jure/de facto gap there plays a role in this decision and how it’s perceived.
freakingcrap•26m ago
A nurse anesthetist median income in the U.S. is 223210 USD. They administer medicine throughout surgery, e.g. brain surgery, open heart surgery, etc.

They make more than I do with over 25 years as a software engineer. If that’s not professional, what is?

bparsons•37m ago
Incredible things happening in America these days.
wyldberry•35m ago
This applying to graduate degrees really does seem like the result of AMA lobbying to keep Nurse Practitioner numbers down. It is state and program dependent, but in some states NPs have prescribing authority, which cuts into the domain of MD/DO practice in the US. There are of course merits to the argument about NP training vs MD/DO training in Pharmacology, but overall this limits patient access in America to prescribed medicine.

Congress, at the behest of AMA lobbying, had kept the number of Medicare funded residency slots capped at the same number since 1997 until the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021 which added 1000 new residence slots[0]. Starting in FY 2023 (October 1 2022) no more than 200 new positions would be added each FY meaning the full 1000 could be created no sooner than FY 2028 (October 1 2027). Given the medical school timeline of 7-10 years training (school, residency, fellowship) we won't see any meaningful impact from that until the mid 2030s.

The US already has a much lower physician to patient ratio than Nordic countries (as a comparison between wealthy, western countries). The us has 2.97 active physicians per 1000 population, of which 2.52 are actual direct patient care physicians[2]. For comparison Sweden is ~5 per 1,000, Norway 4.5 per 1,000, Denmark 4.45 per 1,000, and Finland at 3.8 per 1000. Extra Bonus (Russian Federation reports 4.0 per 1,000)[3]. Note these numbers are as of 2020.

In America, most people interface with doctors in order to get tests run and medicine prescribed. Reducing the incentive for RNs to move into NP by removing it's professional degree status will likely lower the amount of prescribing individuals a patient can interface with, increasing bottleneck and time to care.

[0] - https://www.sgu.edu/news-and-events/new-residency-slots-appr... [1] - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8370355/ [2] - https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/data/2023-key-findings-and... [3] - https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-most-...

boomboomsubban•34m ago
Why is there medicine and then like 8 kinds of medicine? Does this mean something like anesthesiology is also not 'professional?' Or why is podiatry singled out but not the others?
jltsiren•8m ago
They are different degrees based on different curricula. Anesthesiology is a specialization you can choose after finishing MD in "generic" medicine.
sunkeeh•27m ago
Excluding nurse practitioners & physical therapists but including osteopaths, theologian & chiropractics is insane.

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