I wonder if it's an early step towards an apprenticeship system.
How else would they train the LLM PR reviewers to their standards?
I've never personally been in the position, because my entire career has been in startups, but I've had many friends be in the unenviable position of training their replacements. Here's the thing though, at least they knew they were training their replacements. We could be looking at a potential future where an employee or contractor doesn't realize s/he is actually just hired to generate training data for an LLM to replace them, and then be cut.
Maybe I need a bot to do this for me...
This meeting happens literally every week, and has for years. Feels like the media is making a mountain out of a mole hill here.
That's been their job ever since cable news was invented.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism
It probably goes back as long as they have been shouting news in the town square in Rome or before that even.
>He asked staff to attend the meeting, which is normally optional.
Is that false? It also discusses a new policy:
>Junior and mid-level engineers will now require more senior engineers to sign off any AI-assisted changes, Treadwell added.
Is that inaccurate? It is good context that this is a regularly scheduled meeting. But, regularly scheduled meetings can have newsworthy things happen at them.
Note that the article doesn’t say that he told staff they have to attend the meeting. It says he “asked” staff to attend the meeting. Which again, it’s really really normal for there to be an encouragement of “hey, since we just had an operational event, it would be good to prioritize attending this meeting where we discuss how to avoid operational events”.
As for the second quote: senior engineers have always been required to sign off on changes from junior engineers. There’s nothing new there. And there is nothing specific to AI that was announced.
This entire meeting and message is basically just saying “hey we’ve been getting a little sloppy at following our operational best practices, this is a reminder to be less sloppy”. It’s a massive nothingburger.
definitely a team by team question. if it was required it would be a crux rule that the code review isnt approved without an l6 approver.
Items weren't displaying prices and it was impossible to add anything to your cart. It lasted from about 2pm to 5pm.
It's especially strange because if a computer glitch brought down a large retail competitor like Walmart I probably would have seen something even though their sales volume is lower.
Are you completely missing the point of the submission? It's not about "Amazon has a mandatory weekly meeting" but about the contents of that specific meeting, about AI-assisted tooling leading to "trends of incidents", having a "large blast radius" and "best practices and safeguards are not yet fully established".
No one cares how often the meeting in general is held, or if it's mandatory or not.
no, and that's what people are noting: the headline deliberately tries to blow this up into a big deal. When did you last see the HN post about Amazon's mandatory meeting to discuss a human-caused outage, or a post mortem? It's not because they don't happen...
What is worth being pointed out is how quickly people blame "The Media" for how people use, consume and spread information on social networks.
Take a perfectly productive senior developer and instead make him be responsible for output of a bunch of AI juniors with the expectation of 10x output.
Think about it - how do you increase the speed at which one can review code? Well first it must be attractive to look at - the more attractive the faster you review/understand and move through the review. Now this won't be the case everywhere - e.g. in outsourced regions the conditions will force people to operate a certain way.
Im not a SWE by trade, I just try to look at things from a pragmatic stand-point of how org's actually make incremental progress faster.
They're torn between "we want to fire 80% of you" and "... but if we don't give up quality/reliability, LLMs only save a little time, not a ton, so we can only fire like 5% of you max".
(It's the same in writing, these things are only a huge speed-up if it's OK for the output to be low-quality, but good output using LLMs only saves a little time versus writing entirely by-hand—so far, anyway, of course these systems are changing by the day, but this specific limitation has remained true for about four years now, without much improvement)
Essentially something big has to happen that affects the revenue/trust of a large provider of goods, stemming from LLM-use.
They wont go away entirely. But this idea that they can displace engineers at a high-rate will.
I feel the current proliferation of LLMs is going to be an asbestos problem: Cheap miracle thingy overused everywhere with slow gradual regret and chronic harms/costs.
That has always been my feeling. Once I really understand what I need to implement, the code is the easy part. Sure it takes some time, but it's not the majority. And for me, actually writing the code will often trigger some additional insight or awareness of edge cases that I hadn't considered.
Of course it wasn't! Do you think people can envision the right objects to produce all the time? Yeah.. we have a lot of Steve Jobs walking around lol.
As you say, there's 'other stuff' that happens naturally during the production process that add value.
So basically, kill the productivity of senior engineers, kill the ability for junior engineers to learn anything, and ensure those senior engineers hate their jobs.
Bold move, we'll see how that goes.
Jesus, yes. Maybe I'm an oddball but there's a limit to how much PR reviewing I could do per week and stay sane. It's not terribly high, either. I'd say like 5 hours per week max, and no more than one hour per half-workday, before my eyes glaze over and my reviews become useless.
Reviewing code is important and is part of the job but if you're asking me to spend far more of my time on it, and across (presumably) a wider set of projects or sections of projects so I've got more context-switching to figure out WTF I'm even looking at, yes, I would hate my job by the end of day 1 of that.
There's a lot of learning opportunity in failing, but if failure just means spam the AI button with a new prompt, there's not much learning to be had.
I am saying in General, I've never worked in Amazon
It's basically an even-more-ridiculous version of ranking programmers by lines-of-code/week.
What's especially comical is I've seen enormous gains in my (longish, at this point) career from learning other tools (e.g. expanding my familiarity with Unix or otherwise fairly common command line tools) and never, ever has anyone measured how much I'm using them, and never, ever has management become in any way involved in pushing them on me. It's like the CEO coming down to tell everyone they'll be making sure all the programmers are using regular expressions enough, and tracking time spent engaging with regular expressions, or they'll be counting how many breakpoints they're setting in their debuggers per week. WTF? That kind of thing should be leads' and seniors' business, to spread and encourage knowledge and appropriate tool use among themselves and with juniors, to the degree it should be anyone's business. Seems like yet another smell indicating that this whole LLM boom is built on shaky ground.
Gotta be careful if you do that tho; e.x. Copilot can monitor 'accept' rate, so at bare minimum you'd have to accept the changes than immediately back them out...
Review by a senior is one of the biggest "silver bullet" illusions managers suffer from. For a person (senior or otherwise) to examine code or configuration with the granularity required to verify that it even approximates the result of their own level of experience, even only in terms of security/stability/correctness, requires an amount of time approaching the time spent if they had just done it themselves.
I.e. senior review is valuable, but it does not make bad code good.
This is one major facet of probably the single biggest problem of the last couple decades in system management: The misunderstanding by management that making something idiot proof means you can now hire idiots (not intended as an insult, just using the terminology of the phrase "idiot proof").
If AI is a productivity boost and juniors are going to generate 10x the PRs, do you need 10x the seniors (expensive) or 1/10th the juniors (cost save).
A reminder that in many situations, pure code velocity was never the limiting factor.
Re: idiot prooofing I think this is a natural evolution as companies get larger they try to limit their downside & manage for the median rather than having a growth mindset in hiring/firing/performance.
Unchecked, AI models output code that is as buggy as it is inefficient. In smaller green field contexts, it's not so bad, but in a large code base, it's performs much worse as it will not have access to the bigger picture.
In my experience, you should be spending something like 5-15X the time the model takes to implement a feature on reviewing and making it fix its errors and inefficiencies. If you do that (with an expert's eye), the changes will usually have a high quality and will be correct and good.
If you do not do that due dilligence, the model will produce a staggering amount of low quality code, at a rate that is probably something like 100x what a human could output in a similar timespan. Unchecked, it's like having a small army of the most eager junior devs you can find going completely fucking ape in the codebase.
People seem to gloss over this... As a CEO if people don't function like this I'd be awake at night sweating.
Which results the software engineering issue I’m not seeing addressed by the hype: bugs cost tens to hundreds of times their coding cost if the require internal or external communication to address. Even if everyone has been 10x’ed, the math still strongly favours not making mistakes in the first place.
An LLM workflow that yields 10x an engineer but psychopathically lies and sabotages client facing processes/resources once a quarter is likely a NNPP (net negative producing programmer), once opportunity and volatility costs are factored in.
What do the relatively hands-off "it can do whole features at a time" coding systems need to function without taking up a shitload of time in reviews? Great automated test coverage, and extensive specs.
I think we're going to find there's very little time-savings to be had for most real-world software projects from heavy application of LLMs, because the time will just go into tests that wouldn't otherwise have been written, and much more detailed specs that otherwise never would have been generated. I guess the bright-side take of this is that we may end up with better-tested and better-specified software? Though so very much of the industry is used to skipping those parts, and especially the less-capable (so far as software goes) orgs that really need the help and the relative amateurs and non-software-professionals that some hope will be able to become extremely productive with these tools, that I'm not sure we'll manage to drag processes & practices to where they need to be to get the most out of LLM coding tools anyway. Especially if the benefit to companies is "you will have better tests for... about the same amount of software as you'd have written without LLMs".
We may end up stuck at "it's very-aggressive autocomplete" as far as LLMs' useful role in them, for most projects, indefinitely.
On the plus side for "AI" companies, low-code solutions are still big business even though they usually fail to deliver the benefits the buyer hopes for, so there's likely a good deal of money to be made selling companies LLM solutions that end up not really being all that great.
Writing tests to ensure a program is correct is the same problem as writing a correct program.
Evaluating conformance is a different category of concern from ensuring correctness. Tests are about conformance not correctness.
Ensuring correct programs is like cleaning in the sense that you can only push dirt around, you can't get rid of it.
You can push uncertainty around and but you can't eliminate it.
This is the point of Gödel's theorem. Shannon's information theory observes similar aspects for fidelity in communication.
As Douglas Adams noted: ultimately you've got to know where your towel is.
For fairly straightforward changes it's probably a wash, but ironically enough it's often the trickier jobs where they can be beneficial as it will provide an ansatz that can be refined. It's also very good at tedious chores.
One thing I hope we'll all collectively learn from this is how grossly incompetent the elite managerial class has become. They're destroying society because they don't know what to do outside of copying each other.
It has to end.
No one cares about handcrafted artisanal code as long as it meets both functional and non functional requirements. The minute geeks get over themselves thinking they are some type of artists, the happier they will be.
I’ve had a job that requires coding for 30 years and before ther I was hobbyist and I’ve worked for from everything from 60 person startups to BigTech.
For my last two projects (consulting) and my current project, while I led the project, got the requirements, designed the architecture from an empty AWS account (yes using IAC) and delivered it. I didn’t look at a line of code. I verified the functional and non functional requirements, wrote the hand off documentation etc.
The customer is happy, my company is happy, and I bet you not a single person will ever look at a line of code I wrote. If they do get a developer to take it over, the developer will be grateful for my detailed AGENTS.md file.
Guess what? I also stopped caring how registers are used and counting clock cycles in my assembly language code like it’s the 80s and I’m still programming on a 1Mhz 65C02
Speak for yourself. I don't hire people like you.
Even in late 2023 with the shit show of the current market, I had no issues having multiple offers within three weeks just by reaching out to my network and companies looking for people with my set of skills.
You sound like a bozo, I can sniff it through my screen.
I disagree, in the sense that an engineer who knows how to work with LLMs can produce code which only needs light review.
* Work in small increments
* Explicitly instruct the LLM to make minimal changes
* Think through possible failure modes
* Build in error-checking and validation for those failure modes
* Write tests which exercise all paths
This is a means to produce "viable" code using an LLM without close review. However, to your point, engineers able to execute this plan are likely to be pretty experienced, so it may not be economically viable.
The gains are especially significant when working in unfamiliar domains. I can glance over code and know "if this compiles and the tests succeed, it will work", even if I didn't have the knowledge to write it myself.
Yes, code produced this way will have bugs, especially of the "unknown unknown" variety — but so would the code that I would have written by hand.
I think a bigger factor contributing to unforeseen bugs is whether the LLM's code is statistically likely to be correct:
* Is this a domain that the LLM has trained on a lot? (i.e. lots of React code out there, not much in your home-grown DSL)
* Is the codebase itself easy to understand, written with best practices, and adhering to popular conventions? Code which is hard for humans to understand is also hard for an LLM to understand.
It introduces unnecessary indirection, additional abstractions, fails to re-use code. Humans do this too, but AI models can introduce this type of architectural rot much faster (because it's so fast), and humans usually notice when things start to go off the rails, whereas an AI model will just keep piling on bad code.
---
applyTo: '**'
---
By default:
Make the smallest possible change.
Do not refactor existing code unless I explicitly ask.
I hear “x tool doesn’t really work well” and then I immediately ask: “does someone know how to use it well?” The answer “yes” is infrequent. Even a yes is often a maybe.
The problem is pervasive in my world (insurance). Number-producing features need to work in a UX and product sense but also produce the right numbers, and within range of expectations. Just checking the UX does what it’s supposed to do is one job, and checking the numbers an entirely separate task.
I don’t many folks that do both well.
So you're saying that peer reviews are a waste of time and only idiots would use/propose them?
To partially clarify: "Idiot proof" is a broad concept that here refers specifically to abstraction layers, more or less (e.g. a UI framework is a little "idiot proof"; a WYSIWYG builder is more "idiot proof"). With AI, it's complicated, but bad leadership is over-interpreting the "idiot proof" aspects of it. It's a phrase, not an insult to users of these tools.
Maybe I don't have the correct mental model for how the typical junior engineer thinks though. I never wanted to bug senior people and make demands on their time if I could help it.
It's actually often harder to fix something sloppy than to write it from scratch. To fix it, you need to hold in your head both the original, the new solution, and calculate the difference, which can be very confusing. The original solution can also anchor your thinking to some approach to the problem, which you wouldn't have if you solve it from scratch.
The more expensive and less sexy option is to actually make testing easier (both programmatically and manually), write more tests and more levels of tests, and spend time reducing code complexity. The problem, I think, is people don't get promoted for preventing issues.
they do - but only after a company has been burned hard. They also can be promoted for their area being enough better that everyone notices.
still the best way to a promotion is write a major bug that you can come in at the last moment and be the hero for fixing.
cleaning up structural issues across a couple orgs is a senior => principal promo ive seen a couple of times
I’m probably not going to review a random website built by someone except for usability, requirements and security.
I also said senior review is valuable, but I'm not 100% sure if you're implying I didn't.
Whether or not these productivity gains are realized is another question, but spreadsheet based decision makers are going to try.
I would actually say having at least 2 people on any given work item should probably be the norm at Amazon's size if you also want to churn through people as Amazon does and also want quality.
Doing code reviews are not as highly valued in terms of incentives to the employees and it blocks them working on things they would get more compensation for.
1. They can assess whether the use of AI is appropriate without looking in detail. E.g. if the AI changed 1000 lines of code to fix a minor bug, or changed code that is essential for security.
2. To discourage AI use, because of the added friction.
I suspect that isn't the goal.
Review by more senior people shifts accountability from the Junior to a Senior, and reframes the problem from "Oh dear, the junior broke everything because they didn't know any better" to "Ah, that Senior is underperforming because they approved code that broke everything."
/s
So now, you can speed up using Claude Code and use Code Review to keep it in check.
Code review should not be (primarily) about catching serious errors. If there are always a lot of errors, you can’t catch most of them with review. If there are few it’s not the best use of time.
The goal is to ensure the team is in sync on design, standards, etc. To train and educate Jr engineers, to spread understanding of the system. To bring more points of view to complex and important decisions.
These goals help you reduce the number of errors going into the review process, this should be the actual goal.
Thought this blurb most interesting. What's the between-lines subtext here? Are they deliberately serving something they know to be faulty to the Chinese? Or is it the case that the Chinese use it with little to no issue/complaint? Or...?
Haven't tried Kiro CLI.
There’s also this implicit imbalance engineers typically don’t like: it takes me 10 min to submit a complete feature thanks to Claude… but for the human reviewing my PR in a manual way it will take them 10-20 times that.
Edit: at the end real engineers know that what takes effort is a) to know what to build and why, b) to verify that what was built is correct. Currently AI doesn’t help much with any of these 2 points.
The inbetweens are needed but they are a byproduct. Senior leadership doesn’t know this, though.
It sounds like a piss poor deal for seniors unless senior engineer now means professional code reviewer.
I'd prefer people wrote good quality code and checked it as they went along... whilst allowing room for other stuff they didn't think of to come to the front. The production process of using LLMs is entirely different, in its current state I don't see the net benefit.
E.g. if you have a very crystalised vision of what you want, why would I want an engineer to use an LLM to write it, when the LLM can't do both raw production and review? Could this change? Sure. But there's no benefit for me personally to shift toward working that way now - I'd rather it came into existence first before I expose myself to incremental risk that affects business operations. I want a comprehensive solution.
Has Seattle now become the code-slop capital ? Or is SFO still on top ?
Imagine having to debug code that caused an outage when 80% is written by an LLM and you now have to start actually figuring out the codebase at 2am.. :)
So you have 2 systems of engineers: Sr- and Sr+
1. Both should write code to justify their work and impact
2. Sr- code must be reviewed by Sr+
What happens:
a. Sr+ output drops because review takes their time more and more
b. Sr+ just blindly accepts because of the volume is too high, and they should also do their own work
c. Sr+ asks Sr- to slow-down, then Sr- can get bad reviews for the output, because on average Sr+ will produce more code
I think (b) will happen
And from their sagely reviews, we shall train a large language model to ultimately replace them because the most fungible thing at Amazon is the leadership.
News from the inside makes it sound like things are getting pretty bad.
I am seeing this mindset still, with AI Agents. I imagine they will slowly realize they need to use this stuff to be competitive, but being slow to adopt AI seems like it could have been the source of this.
If you know CS you know two things:
1. AI can not judge code either noise or signal, AI cannot tell. 2. CS-wise we use statistic analysis to judge good code from bad.
How much time does it take to take AI output and run the basic statistic tools for most computer languages?
Some juniors need firing outright
"No, not like that though!"
1. Shipping: deliver tickets or be pipped.
2. Having Less comments on their PRs: for some drastically dumb reason, having a PR thoroughly reviewed is a sign of bad quality. L7 and above use this metric to Pip folks.
3. Docs: write docs, get them reviewed to show you're high level.
Without AI, an employee is worse off in all of the above compared to folks who will cheat to get ahead.
I can't see how "requesting" folks for forego their own self-preservation will work. especially when you've spent years pitting people against each other.
mhitza•1h ago