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Ernst & Young published cybersecurity report full of hallucinations

https://gptzero.me/investigations/ey
118•smartmic•1h ago

Comments

raro11•48m ago
What a horrible page to navigate
bokkies•46m ago
Feels like my scroll is hallucinating
umpalumpaaa•46m ago
My iPhone automatically enabled reader mode - I disabled it to see what you are referring to and I agree…
snailmailman•44m ago
On mobile, It’s hijacking my scroll in such a way that I literally cannot move further down the page. And “reader mode” is only showing me the first paragraph or so.

I’ll have to try again later on desktop. The content looks interesting but it’s literally impossible to read. I cannot get past the section that introduces Ernst and Young.

1000100_1000101•12m ago
On desktop it keeps adding forced pauses to scrolling, of varying sizes, and you need to scroll down a between 1 and 10 pages worth to begin scrolling again.

It might "work" just fine on mobile (or not) but you may have stopped trying before reaching the point of re-scrolling, because it's insane.

lelandfe•10m ago
I recommend just clicking and dragging the actual scrollbar on desktop for this one. Wild
kavok•27m ago
Very difficult to use on mobile.
bbddg•22m ago
I'm usually annoyed by people complaining about scroll hijacking on HN but this site was a new level of bad.
nntwozz•5m ago
[delayed]
chaidhat•43m ago
Maybe they should stop pushing these bankers to do 48 hour shifts…
331c8c71•39m ago
These are not bankers, but the culture is still bonkers
nilirl•41m ago
Site is gross to scroll on mobile
cwillu•8m ago
It's gross to scroll on desktop as well.
ilamont•41m ago
The problem we're seeing across many professions is AI output is not getting vetted by knowledgeable people, whether it's an experienced analyst, senior engineer, expert attorney, or the resident physician. At best they skim, at worst they don't even see it at all before it's published, pushed to production, distributed to clients, or submitted to the court.

In many cases the skills are available in house to do the necessary vetting, but these people are already overwhelmed with their existing day to day.

Anyone remember that item a few months back about Amazon now having senior engineers vet generative AI output (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47323017)? I had to LOL when I read that. These folks are already slammed. And the idea that Amazon would allow human bottlenecks to multiply across projects and underlying infrastructure development is ridiculous.

ChrisLTD•37m ago
> the idea that Amazon would allow human bottlenecks to appear across projects and underlying infrastructure is ridiculous.

Why?

SoftTalker•30m ago
Amazon is fairly well known to ruthlessly optimize every process.

So if they're having humans proofread what the AI produces, they must have found that to be necessary.

_puk•32m ago
Part of the problem: you get given a complete document to review after it's been fully baked.

I'm pushing the need for basic engineering principles across whole organisations.

You wouldn't give an engineer 1000 lines of code to review without the original spec of what you're trying to achieve for context (at a minimum, ideally the reviewer was in the room when the work was introduced, and has full context).

So, these docs, they're given as an all or nothing.

Do you push back on the 39th metric that is defined to the utmost detail? Or just resign yourself to the fact that it is what it is?

A one (6 is the goto if we're talking Amazon?!) pager.. "this is what I am proposing" at least gives the skeleton of the idea to push back at the general shape of the idea, refine it, before all the emotional investment of your precious report being complete.

Y'know.. the traditional product running through the spec in a SCRUM* environment.. the engineers doing proper code reviews..

* Yes SCRUM is dead, but that's another thing.

mapontosevenths•35m ago
EY has been quietly laying people off for the last year solid.

It's unsurprising that trying to do more with less results in lower quality.

Our_Benefactors•32m ago
Holy horrible UI
cmiles8•30m ago
This sort of thing is a complete embarrassment to a firm like EY, where people are paying them a lot of money for advice. They’ve basically demonstrated that their market leading research is just someone asking questions to ChatGPT.

If you ever needed evidence to not buy “advice” from such outfits, this is exhibit one.

Hopefully they at least fired the partner that published this steaming pile of AI slop.

ralph84•20m ago
Executives pay them a lot of money to launder blame. If a project fails after consulting EY, well, what can you do. If a project fails without consulting anyone externally, it's obviously a failure of the executive.
elmomle•14m ago
Exactly--they're paid a lot of money for their reputation, which is valuable in offering cover for politically difficult decisions. This was certainly net-negative for E&Y's reputation.
jimnotgym•14m ago
The Big Four have become a shadow of their former selves. They have become so risk averse that their advice is already incredibly generic and non-actionable.

I think their audit work is in a downwards spiral. Audit has become so competitive that they are struggling to find ways to make it cheaper. They have become slaves to reducing the hours booked, and the rate of those hours. To do this they substitute less experienced people all the time. You used to be able to chat with your partner about an issue you have coming up, now you get their assistant if you are lucky. By chasing 'efficiency' they have lost their value-add. Now the first time the partner has looked at your file is right before the clearance meeting, and they spot issues that should have been picked up earlier and tested on the day you should be signing. So you end up doing it all again. I'm trying to coin a term for the inneficiency caused by chasing efficiency.

galaxyLogic•29m ago
I don't quite get it why they can't take another LLM and vet the output of the first with the second one. Surely they would not have the same hallucinations and would be able to detect hallucinations of the earlier LLM. Maybe it would cost too much in terms of tokens?

I don't know but I would expect it to be realtively easy for an LLM to detect "hallucinations".

operatingthetan•26m ago
>I don't quite get it why they can't take another LLM and vet the output of the first with the seond one.

I think this may be part of the problem. The actual humans creating the report don't have the expertise to know which one to trust. At least that was what consulting was like in my experience in a similar firm.

TZubiri•24m ago
Because they used LLMs to do the work. What you are suggesting is to use the LLMs to create more work, which is counter to the shortcut they were trying to take.
mindcrime•6m ago
> I don't quite get it why they can't take another LLM and vet the output of the first with the second one.

Yes, this technique and its variations[1][2] "work" but it's still not 100% perfect. And it's not as widely used it might be because, among other reason:

a. it takes longer to implement

b. it costs more (more tokens spread across multiple llm calls)

c. higher latency (getting an answer takes longer due to multiple llm calls involved)

d. the final answer is probabilistically more likely to be correct, but is still not guaranteed to be error free, so you can never fully escape the need for Human in the Loop.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LLM-as-a-Judge

[2]: https://github.com/karpathy/llm-council

galaxyLogic•26m ago
I don't quite get it why they can't take another LLM and vet the output of the first with the second one. Surely they would not have the same hallucinations and would be able to detect hallucinations of the earlier LLM. Maybe it would cost too much in terms of tokens?

I don't know but I would expect it to be relatively easy for an LLM to detect "hallucinations".

jonwinstanley•24m ago
Did someone hallucinate how scrolling is supposed to work on a web page?
rao-v•21m ago
What’s strange about how things have developed is that this report 12-18 months ago would have been a massive scandal and have caused durable brand damage.

Now nobody will remember or notice.

mentalgear•12m ago
This proves (again) one think for sure: The "Big x" Consulting Firms were always BS - and now them generating all their work themselves using LLMs just profs that their 'clients' can just skip their Million Dollar fees and just ask the LLM directly.
contingencies•11m ago
Basically the entire consulting industry should die due to AI.

Performative executives of yesteryear that constantly need external validation and direction and operate through hive mind and groupthink are weak and will die.

I believe some of the biggest problems in today's business leaders are an inability to be open to new information, to think across traditional professional boundaries, or to ask meaningful questions.

AI simply exposes this unapologetically.

Bad management (this includes most government): up your game or get out of the way.

Sycophantic consultant firms: die.

The Economist should do an article on this.

scotty79•11m ago
If they can't be bothered what they are putting out, do you think that before AI, what they wrote had any merit?
meibo•10m ago
Wow, your mom lets you have TWO scrollbars?
cwillu•9m ago
Is there any source with just the plain text? The css styling is headache inducing and reader mode doesn't work or has been defeated.
throwrioawfo•8m ago
You're not actually meant to _read_ these reports.
le-mark•6m ago
The real comedy is seeing this garbage come down from senior management, clumsy prompting, hallucinated garbage that’s all fluff and zero actionable information, zero real informed analysis. “See this analysis of our support issues from jira, we must fix these top three problems!!!” And it’s all the stuff everyone has known for years but management has refused to give anyone the authority to fix anything. I’ve seen this more than twice now; needs a name. Garbagemaxxing?
zb3•5m ago
Stop messing with the scroll, I thought there was something wrong with my mouse wheel. Why are you doing this?
zelphirkalt•5m ago
I wish we could just stop destroying people's jobs and lives using AI. The statistics I have heard quoted say, that merely 25% of the people actually like their job. Meaning they like doing what they do for its own sake, not because it gets them money, which they desperately need to live. I get it, most people don't want to do the work. But can we stop ruining the jobs of people, who are actually dedicated to their job and would like to keep doing their job properly?

But I guess since EY is a CYA hedge anyway, no one really cares about whether the reports are hallucinations or not. Someone high up spent money on EY, so that they can justify some decision and won't be held responsible that much, when it turns out the decision was shit. All that matters to them is, that it has the appearance of something genuine and then they can base the decision on what they receive from EY, which better be what they already wanted to hear/read anyway.

JoshTriplett•14m ago
> Part of the problem: you get given a complete document to review after it's been fully baked.

Not fully baked, worse: made to sound confidently correct, orthogonally its actual correctness.

bradleyankrom•7m ago
Like the fake food they make for commercials. Looks great on TV.
xienze•29m ago
> In many cases the skills are available in house to do the necessary vetting, but these people are already overwhelmed with their existing day to day.

I think a lot of the time it's just pure laziness. AI gives people a magical "do all the work for me" button and it can bring out the worst in them.

canyp•7m ago
I constantly battle this dichotomy where I care about the work I do but I also cannot possibly care about the corporate model, given 0 ownership of flawed processes across the org and the looming layoff that'll happen any day now.

Some people are given the button and really do not care.

ChrisMarshallNY•13m ago
> AI output is not getting vetted by knowledgeable people

You mean the people they fired and demoralized?

One of the things that "great [wo]men" like about "vibe-coding" (and that includes blindly producing non-code product), is that they, and they alone can now do what used to require the painful process of "passing it to context experts."

Now, the LLM is a "built-in context expert," and they don't need to vet the output anymore.

fabian2k•11m ago
If the main job is putting out a report, starting with AI is wrong in any case. What's the value of an AI-generated report, even if experts fix the biggest issues with it? Maybe this kind of report didn't have all that much value before, I don't know. But starting with AI just makes sure it's generic drivel.
busterarm•6m ago
I worked at a top 5 hedge fund in the early 2000s. They had a large team of E&Y auditors onsite at all times that I worked somewhat closely with.

Some things stuck out at me: - They were all in their early 20s. - They were all incredibly checked out. Honestly they still seem like an outlier to me decades later. - They partied hard. Yes, with drugs. - Most of them were in rotating intimate relationships with each other. - They seemed busy for maybe two or three weeks out of the entire year and then it was long stretches of Minesweeper/Solitaire.

I filed this away in my head as "provides no value" and that was decades ago. If the industry itself is worse off today I can't imagine how much worse it actually is from my experience.

Ernst & Young published cybersecurity report full of hallucinations

https://gptzero.me/investigations/ey
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