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The Glass Backbone: Why the Army's Logistics Will Break in the Next War

https://mwi.westpoint.edu/the-glass-backbone-why-the-armys-logistics-will-break-in-the-next-war/
60•baud147258•1h ago

Comments

kayo_20211030•47m ago
A very insightful, and correct, piece.

I'll quote in full the following, which I think gets to the heart of the matter. If you have no push, you can't apply pressure to the point.

> The notion that amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics is frequently discussed in military academies and war colleges, yet it is rarely reflected in the Army’s budget requests or modernization priorities. The outdated concept of the tooth-to-tail ratio, which implies the logistical tail is a bureaucratic waste that must be minimized to support the combat teeth, must be fundamentally reexamined. In modern warfare, the tail is the primary target. If the tail is severed, the teeth are rendered useless.

aprentic•30m ago
It's always about logistics. The Three Kingdoms War was one of the bloodiest conflicts in human history. It was largely enabled by the invention of the wheelbarrow.
Linell•27m ago
Do you have any more information about this?
9question1•5m ago
Probably talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wooden_ox. This page suggests this may be a bit of a myth
silvestrov•30m ago
One of the most interesting innovations in the Ukraine war is their internal market place for drones, letting each drone group decide which drones they want to procure and use in battle.

It is not a top-down decision, production and supply as other armies use for their weapons logistics.

homeonthemtn•24m ago
I hadn't heard this before. Do you have a good article on it? I'd be curious to learn more
abejfehr•13m ago
They might be referring to the e-Points system, where hitting targets awards points and you can trade the points in for drones, etc
tpurves•13m ago
this strategy worked to keep Ukraine alive, by enabling them to throw literally anything and everything they could obtain into the fight. And the system enabled rapid experimentation and evolution of what works. Also they didn't have enough of anything to equip all units equally or fully, so a market-like system of was also a way to triage short supply.

However the logistics costs of fragmentation are very real (relevant to the supply chain theme of this story). And now that Ukraine is producing the better part of 10 millions(!) of drones per year, they are shifting towards more standardized drone models to simplify logistics, achieve more economies of scale and also now to have the capacity to keep units equipped more evenly and reliably.

larrik•28m ago
They should probably rename it from "tail" to "neck" and watch the attitudes shift immediately.
alansaber•27m ago
The driving force of peacetime military procurement and organisation is bureaucracy. Hence we see the real developments in military doctrine from Ukraine, Iran etc.
phkahler•16m ago
The US military knows full well the importance of logistics. TFA is somehow arguing for distributed distribution networks that are harder to track and attack. Why not advocate for improved defenses along the supply lines? Or is it down to percentages where just one good hit has large effect?
zipy124•9m ago
They argue for both no? Increased armour for logistics, but also the notion that yes, if one good hit destroys your whole stockpile then you would need a 100% success rate defense mechanism which is impossible when you can be overwhelmed by the number of drones/missiles seen in modern warfare.
maxglute•1m ago
Knowing logistics is important =/= able to adapt logistics to modern environment. Last 40-50 years US adversaries couldn't really contest/degrade US logistics at scale. Article is suggesting with new tech, they probably could, and hence may have to redo the entire system for distributed survivability / operate under chaos. Aka 60/70% of the force (the tail) is going to have to change the way they do things. It's hard to make 60/70% of org change, especially the boring bureaucratic/logistics part built around predictability, they're going to want to stay predictable and insist its fine, until its not.
dahart•5m ago
> A very insightful, and correct, piece.

I agree, or at least it feels insightful. Correct I can’t personally validate. But the big question I have is who is this written for, and what do they want to see happen? Is this to sway the public, to push politicians, to convince the Army internally to plan better, or ask for more?

Looks like military spending is currently ~20% of all Federal Revenue at somewhere close to $1T, and it exceeds the combined spending of China and Russia by maybe 2x. Are we wanting to go back to 1960’s 50% of Federal Revenue? Why don’t we have reasonable logistics and supply lines and infrastructure with $1T?

Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_...

wartywhoa23•42m ago
Many complain on negativism in HN comments, but how in the world can a sane person express anything positive when there's a hell-bent will in conjunction with the "next war"?
paulluuk•34m ago
I consider myself an optimist, but given that the US has been in 229 wars over it's 249 years since founding, it seems highly unlikely that there wouldn't be a "next war".
wartywhoa23•28m ago
My point is that war is the worst thing that humans can engage in, and that the prevailing sentiment is that constant war is an immutable status-quo, and hence it's okay, there's nothing we can do except downvoting those fucking negativists.
abtinf•20m ago
War is not nearly the worst thing. Not even in the top 10.
wartywhoa23•17m ago
Oh, really? I'd like to see your top 10.
abtinf•3m ago
Things that are worse than war, a wildly incomplete list, in no particular order:

Pogroms; slavery; totalitarian dictatorship; theocracy; intentional mass starvation; mass organ harvesting; mass forced relocation; anarchy; failing to respond to unprovoked violence; restricting freedom instead of defeating the adversary.

causality0•41m ago
Change is not going to happen until it's forced. The US military was born as a force required to rebuff existential threats. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, the gravitational center of the US military has been the profit margins of defense contractors. What creates the greatest profit? Centralization. Why have a dozen logistics centers when you can have one big one? A trillion dollar fighter program more efficiently absorbs tax dollars than half a dozen specialized vehicle programs from mid-sized companies. Why get congress to pay you to make cheap drones when you can get them to pay you to build $4M Patriot missiles? The MBAs have been riding the US military into the dirt for forty years and I don't think it's going to stop any time soon.
kasey_junk•34m ago
Isn’t the American military logistics the most decentralized supply chain in the world? Famously (perhaps apocryphal) _every congressional district_ has jobs in the military logistics supply chain.
causality0•26m ago
It would be decentralized if the same things were being built in different places. The way US government manufacturing is set up is more like taking all your organs out, sticking each of them in a separate room, and piping the blood back and forth. Every item has a mile-long supply chain and attacking any part of it shuts the whole thing down.
bflesch•25m ago
I agree with your point but it's incredibly naive to identify "the MBAs" as scapegoat for this problem.

We're living in times where an evangelical POTUS dislikes the pope, oligarchs talk about the "antichrist", wars are started with reference to "armageddon" [1] to distract from old money power brokers such as Epstein who has esotheric Kaballah symbols on his office walls [2 @14min42sec].

The authoritarians are concluding the democratic experiment because they can't hide their heritage any longer. All hail the King.

[1] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/troops-being-told-to-prepare-...

[2] https://www.yahoo.com/news/videos/never-seen-video-shows-eps...

bad_haircut72•39m ago
When Russia invaded Ukraine, nobody (even the Ukranians) imagined that 5 years later they would have their own missiles hammering Russia 2500kms in the rear. Americans need to start accepting that a) the Iran war will also probably still be going on in 5 years and b) Iran will probably in a better place than they are now, strategically speaking.
mcphage•34m ago
> Iran will probably in a better place than they are now, strategically speaking

How could that be? Are they getting an influx of $300 billion dollars or something?

jandrese•26m ago
They'll be getting the Hormuz toll money.
xp84•22m ago
It’s an odd declaration and maybe based on Rus/Ukraine. But Ukraine is doing better now than in the first week of the “Special Military Operation” due to having a lot of rich allies who have (in fits and starts) given them a lot of money and gear, and due to a Russia which has stretched its military and economy to the breaking point.

By contrast, Iran’s only allies are its terrorist affiliates in Lebanon, Gaza, and the Houthis. Those guys can’t do much to help. China and Russia (see above though) are willing to do business with them but don’t really give a crap about Iran surviving.

Anyway, the US and Israel can keep degrading Iran’s military and “government” by dropping bombs (or better, drones) on them every week for a decade and it won’t really be a big deal for the former. Iran though will not be better off for it, I’m pretty confident. (Other than their surviving religious fanatics will be even more suicidally devout.)

pjc50
Stevvo•32m ago
A limited view of the threat. All very well worrying about keeping your armored brigade combat team fueled up, but that won't be much use when the same weapons that threaten the logistics have destroyed all the Abrams and Bradleys that use the fuel. The Army is still under the delusion that its possible to win a peer conflict, not having learnt the lesson of the cold war there will be no winners in this hypothetical fight.
HelloMcFly•30m ago
This piece seems logical and correct. It also seems entirely AI-generated, but I suppose we've moved into a world where that's just the way content is now.
ranger207•27m ago
Nah that's just the way defense essays have sounded for the past 20 years or so
BadBadJellyBean•25m ago
Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. You gain nothing from pointing out every post that seems LLM generated. Read it or don't but we don't make the world better by accusing each other of using LLMs. The only things we increase are mistrust and frustration.
HelloMcFly•11m ago
There is no "maybe", it is at least largely AI-generated though I'm sure there's a human involved in building the perspective. Run it through any checker you can find, the outcome is without doubt.

I don't think I've made a similar comment elsewhere on Hacker News, reddit, etc., (nor do I plan to make a habit of it) but this one stuck out to me. I know this because I did read it just as I've read previous posts such as these on West Point through the years. This just isn't how things used to be written. It's a little more ambiguous out in the wild on any given site/blog/etc.

> The only things we increase are mistrust and frustration

Mistrust of what? The human voice behind this thought? Yes, I think that mistrust is valid and earned. Nevertheless, I admit the topic seems pertinent and the argument has merit.

haunter•27m ago
> If history provides the theory, the ongoing war in Ukraine offers a brutal contemporary lesson: Modern armies collapse when they run out of logistics, not when they run out of weapons.

Is this really a new lesson? I thought that was common knowlegede since WW2 especially with the events of the Eastern Front.

realusername•19m ago
"Amateurs discuss tactics, professionals discuss logistics"

Napoleon

tristramb•14m ago
He learnt the hard way (as did all those who followed him into Russia)
hvs•11m ago
That was discussed in the article.
hunmernop•18m ago
So many armchair quarterbacks
xp84•14m ago
There’s nothing peculiar about the US, every country or even tribe has fought many wars.
krapp•2m ago
Not every country or tribe has been engaged in near continuous violence for over two centuries. That isn't simply "fighting many wars" it's being "existentially bound to warfare." The US is peculiar. It's the nation born of a continent-wide campaign of genocide and plunder. It's the only Western nation that couldn't give up slavery without a civil war. It's the only nation to wage nuclear war, and did so primarily against civilians. It's (for the time being) the world's only superpower, with a military orders of magnitude larger than any other.
mcphage•31m ago
Ukraine didn't want to go to war, but someone else made that choice for them.
strictnein•30m ago
Are you under the impression that humanity could reach a state where there is never another major war?

I don't know how one would reach that conclusion, least of all a Major at the nation's leading military educational institute. Nothing "hell-bent" about it.

wartywhoa23•25m ago
Yes, I am. That requires a total reassesment of who the real enemy is, though (hint: psychopaths at power).
pjc50•19m ago
People were starting to think that way at the "end of history" period between the Cold War and 9/11. At that time the major powers were not involved in wars, and it was believed that regional ones could be "solved" like Yugoslavia.

9/11 was a huge success for Bin Laden's goal of restarting a forever war, though.

alansaber•30m ago
Comparing the negativity of HN to the inevitability IRL warfare is absolutely hilarious, but I take your point
xp84•15m ago
Why are defense contractors not better investments, then?

https://youtu.be/C2gIId1dpDs

•
17m ago
I believe the assessment is based on the desire of the US to offer concessions (such as sanctions withdrawal) in order to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. Which will be painful in the medium term, but less so in the long run as oil is diverted around it.
malfist•32m ago
> Iran war will also probably still be going on in 5 years

The Russia/Ukraine war has a goal, to make Ukraine either part of Russia or a client state.

What's the goal of the US/Iran war? So far it seems like the goal is to mostly return to the status quo prior to the war. I can't imagine that could continue 5 years because there's just not an objective. Of course, I could easily be mistaken.

mcphage•30m ago
> What's the goal of the US/Iran war?

What's the goal?! The US/Iran war has a ton of goals! Every day a new goal, each as improbable as the last.

anjel•20m ago
As with Ukraine, it's a David and Goliath kind of conflict and in both conflicts, the temptation for Goliath to escalate by leveraging scale is predictable, tempting and frought.
segbrk•28m ago
That’s exactly why it could continue indefinitely. A war with no goal can’t be won. Nor can it be abandoned without bruising powerful egos.
jandrese•24m ago
The Trump administration forgot all of the lessons of Vietnam.
__s•15m ago
If it weren't for those bone spurs maybe that war wouldn't be so forgotten
JBiserkov•4m ago
Maybe because they dogged it?
pjc50•22m ago
The goal is a very simple one: make Trump look good. It wouldn't be the first war in history to be driven by pure vanity of an absolute ruler.
forshaper•21m ago
There hasn't been a clear goal for an American war since the first Gulf War.
strulovich•18m ago
This is not. Avery charitable explanation, it it takes politicians at their word during a war. (One should not do that, and you can refer to Putin’s language at 2022 as a parallel example to Trump’s)

The initial US goals clearly were: 1. Regime change 2. Denial is f nuclear weapons

It’s also clear these goals were not achieved. So the US changed tactics and goals. (Same as Russia no longer plans on capturing Kiev it seems)

Most likely the US is stalling for time due to oil markets and has the same intentions as before, limited only be current capability.

bad_haircut72•8m ago
Once you've lost something (I think sooner or later, Iran will succeed in sinking a big US ship) then even if you cant win, you also cant leave else its an admission of defeat - so it drags on and on and on.
kcatskcolbdi•21m ago
It's hard to imagine them in a better place; they seem to have us by the balls already.
stronglikedan•20m ago
lol, no. no comparison between those wars

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