frontpage.
newsnewestaskshowjobs

Open Source @Github

fp.

Open in hackernews

What is Nueralese and Why is it Bad

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/RCYF2rW8wgusidZk7/what-is-neuralese-and-why-is-it-bad
23•tristanMatthias•2d ago

Comments

niemandhier•49m ago
My understanding is, that we do not know if the chain-of-thought actually matters in the way we assume for the result.

I think there were experiments where seemingly relevant parts of the CoT were ablated and it did not change the result.

For all we know it might be somewhat human parseable neuralese.

skybrian•38m ago
No guarantees, but it might still be a useful signal even if it’s not causative?
jameshart•26m ago
Or the neuralese could be hidden steganographically in the chain of thought.
bryanrasmussen•47m ago
surely Neuralese interpreters can be made that turn the chain of numbers into an English description?
brimtown•34m ago
This is the premise of Natural Language Autoencoders.

https://www.anthropic.com/research/natural-language-autoenco...

dnautics•23m ago
I think this is correct. But the article is also correct (If a bit breathless and overstating on the risk): having to reinterpret neuralese is a layer of indirection which introduces effort and inaccuracy
_alternator_•43m ago
The argument is that chain-of-thought without "tokens" would remove a major interpretability and model intent control pane. This is definitely borne out in the OpenAI's report on the huggingface attack; they had turned of CoT monitoring for those jobs, and claim that they could have (would have?) prevented the behavior had they been monitoring it. They've changed their internal policies to always monitor CoT.

That said... CoT monitoring is a fragile "intent discovery" mechanism; neuralese puts this problem front-and-center but if agents begin to learn to hide their intent from their CoT journals, we are basically in the same spot.

aftbit•42m ago
What about the trend of summarizing or eliding reasoning from the visible model response, ostensibly to make distillation by competitors harder?
yellow_lead•32m ago
If the model can understand neuralese why can it not convert it into English for monitoring or review purposes?

Or we believe the model will encode secret messages like "don't reveal this information" into the neuralese. But as the author mentions, they could have been doing that all along

> Models can omit key information in their visible thoughts, as this Anthropic 2025 paper shows. We are also worried about steganography

pixl97•27m ago
It's the second part. With models like Astra in testing it was able to conceal what it was working on using different text, but getting right answers on many questions when asked to do just that.

The problem is if it can do that when asked then how do we know when it's doing it when we didn't ask, like in model training.

vessenes•19m ago
Anthropic’s Mechinterp did some very fine work on this. TLDR - you can; you train a decoder on neuralese to english and then add a loss function for a roundtrip of english -> neuralese -> english (or possibly n -> e -> n? I don’t recall), giving a pretty strong indication that you have a good ‘translation’.

They published open weights versions of these interpreters for a number of open models sometime in the last year. Very cool idea.

By the way, they concluded CoT often lied, based on the neuralese interpretation.

EDIT: a comment below linked to https://www.anthropic.com/research/natural-language-autoenco..., which is what I was referring to.

spwa4•12m ago
Because neuralese is a more direct encoding of the latent space of these models than English is. It's just dumping the latent space relatively directly into the embedder. If you're another model and you have the same embedder this will actually be understandable, in fact it will be FAR more information dense than English. So something like Qwen would potentially be saying up to 5120 things using one token. Now in practice it's not going to be that bad, it's going to be like 20 things or so, and additionally going to be far more context dependent than any English sentence (meaning depending on what preceeds and follows it can mean drastically different things)

So you can turn it to English, but only to a LOT of English, and doing so would slow the model down a great deal, and it would be a lot more like a detailed thought than a sentence.

amluto•23m ago
Can we take a step back here? Both OpenAI’s and Anthropic’s models think in encryptedese, and it seems thoroughly absurd to think that the entire world should trust those two companies to adequately monitor the plaintext or, for that matter, to have their monitoring systems aligned with what is actually good for the world.

If you want to monitor your model, you need to start with an inference provider that gives you the entire output and possibly even run it yourself to get access to the internal states. And if you think the KV cache and (when present) the recurrent state don’t encode a lot of “thought”, you are fooling yourself.

FWIW, I think most model architectures at least have the property that latent state can’t propagate from higher layers to lower layers by any route other than the output tokens. But even a two-iteration structure could be designed so that the last layer produces a vector that enters the first layer, once per token, and I bet it it would be very easy to train such a model to “think” in silence in the sense that the output tokens while thinking would all be one particular null token.

IshKebab•21m ago
I don't think their architectural view of CoT works is correct is it?
ur-whale•18m ago
What exactly prevents anyone worried about this to build an LLM that can decode the neuralese to english and use it to monitor what the model is doing?

Or is the neuralese some sort of irreversibly encrypted data set that only an LLM can "understand" and that can never be translated back to English?

Arodex•14m ago
How do you trust that LLM?
everybodyknows•10m ago
[delayed]

I Feel about AI

https://beza1e1.tuxen.de/ai_feelings.html
56•qznc•31m ago•20 comments

Intellectual Fly Is Open (2025)

https://bcantrill.dtrace.org/2025/12/05/your-intellectual-fly-is-open/
235•cyb0rg0•3h ago•131 comments

QBittorrent breaks out of sandbox to commit crimes

https://beige.party/@intransitivelie/117057396732763183
85•mraniki•2h ago•10 comments

A/I shuts down – Stay human

https://keepitfree.ai/announcements/a/i-shuts-down-stay-human/
155•captainmuon•57m ago•50 comments

Isar Aerospace reaches orbit and deploys payloads on second flight

https://isaraerospace.com/press/history-for-european-spaceflight-isar-aerospace-reaches-orbit-and...
387•mpweiher•8h ago•112 comments

Doomscrolling Ourselves to Death

https://www.edwest.co.uk/p/doomscrolling-ourselves-to-death
172•shubhamjain•3h ago•115 comments

Show HN: Kadō – open-source habit tracker, with non-binary habit score, for iOS

https://github.com/scastiel/kado
15•scastiel•57m ago•5 comments

The many mysteries and lessons of the Bayeux tapestry

https://economist.com/interactive/culture/2026/09/03/the-many-mysteries-and-lessons-of-the-bayeux...
30•andsoitis•1h ago•5 comments

M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC
114•gurjeet•4d ago•44 comments

What is Nueralese and Why is it Bad

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/RCYF2rW8wgusidZk7/what-is-neuralese-and-why-is-it-bad
24•tristanMatthias•2d ago•17 comments

Alberta (Canada) slaps punitive tax on solar panels

https://albertapolitics.ca/2026/09/ucp-slaps-punitive-tax-on-solar-panels-opening-new-front-in-it...
3•cmrdporcupine•17m ago•2 comments

Asahi Linux Now Officially Supports Apple M3 Macs – With Caveats

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Asahi-Linux-Official-M3
60•mdp2021•1h ago•30 comments

Cloud in a Bottle: making self-hosting accessible to everyone

https://cloudinabottle.org/blog/launch-post
524•zplizzi•15h ago•261 comments

The revolt of the reader

https://bcantrill.dtrace.org/2026/09/05/the-revolt-of-the-reader/
489•chmaynard•17h ago•228 comments

Ganon's Mysterious Origins (Revisited)

https://www.thrillingtalesofoldvideogames.com/blog/ganon-name-origin-kamen-rider
5•tobr•18h ago•0 comments

I'm teaching an introductory 12 week course on Quantum Oracle Engineering

https://shukla.io/quantum-oracle-engineering/
16•BinRoo•2h ago•8 comments

The pencil case model of creativity

https://dub.uu.nl/en/column/pencil-case-model-creativity
29•jruohonen•3h ago•9 comments

Music Theory for Programmers

https://runjs.app/blog/music-theory-for-programmers
251•birdculture•3d ago•150 comments

IBM Quantum Nighthawk R2

https://www.ibm.com/quantum/blog/nighthawk-r2
49•fuglede_•3d ago•28 comments

Household Laser Cuts

https://cceckman.com/writing/household-laser-cuts/
29•evakhoury•1d ago•4 comments

The ColorChecker, photography's most important 24 squares, turns 50

https://www.dpreview.com/news/the-colorchecker-photographys-most-important-24-squares-turns-50/
106•sohkamyung•4d ago•19 comments

AMD Based FreeBSD Desktop Reloaded

https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2026/09/06/amd-based-freebsd-desktop-reloaded/
92•vermaden•13h ago•9 comments

The Empire of Information

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/data-empire-roopika-risam-information-organize-control-dominate/
26•Petiver•4d ago•8 comments

Fileregister: Tagging and reference layer for your files, in plain text

https://github.com/rhsev/fileregister
12•ingve•5d ago•2 comments

AI, Tools and Transformation

https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2026/9/3/ai-tools-and-transformation
113•firexcy•13h ago•48 comments

Discovery of a new OpenAI agent message board

https://collusion.wiki/
2231•moultano•2d ago•1566 comments

I Changed My License

https://bergie.iki.fi/blog/eupl/
120•jllyhill•4h ago•134 comments

2026 Hugo Awards

https://www.thehugoawards.org/
33•signa11•2h ago•22 comments

Learn Programming with OCaml

https://usr.lmf.cnrs.fr/lpo/
292•elvis70•22h ago•124 comments

The "$60 Gaming PC" – AMD BC-250 (2025)

https://devquasar.com/hardware/the-60-gaming-pc-amd-bc-250/
362•networked•1d ago•106 comments