"To prevent this from happening, once a sperm cell has made contact with it, the egg quickly employs two mechanisms. First, its plasma membrane rapidly depolarises – meaning it creates an electrical barrier that further sperm cannot cross."
We are some pretty special and die-hard persons.
I too have encountered severe difficulties in exploring the female reproductive tract.
pbw•15h ago
Metacelsus•14h ago
yesco•14h ago
Ignoring whether or not it would even be possible, a perfect CRC is antithetical to evolution itself, wiggle room for mutation must always be possible, but too much mutation gives you cancer and systemic malfunction. So you end up with these bizarre processes that allow just the right amount of imperfection.
With sperm specifically it ends up closer to a signature check than just a CRC, if the sperm doesn't exhibit behavior that falls under a certain umbrella of expected behaviors, it's rejected by the surrounding environment. The difficulty to comprehend it could even be a feature of the process in many respects, especially when you consider everything in this realm risks getting "hacked" if precautions are not put into place.
So when I see huge numbers like this, I see it as an indirect measure of the precision of the overall process. To put it another way, it's like brute forcing a password you don't know, but happen to have a lot of hints to (since obviously, we are all still the same species at the end of the day).
Analemma_•14h ago
I’ve asked this question to multiple evolutionary biologists, and all of them answered “no” very strongly, strongly enough that I’m inclined to believe it. Apparently the frequency of deleterious mutations is many orders of magnitude greater than the frequency of beneficial ones, meaning there’s little chance perfect copying could be maladaptive. And in any event, evolution always selects for the fitness of the individual, not the species— group selection is a controversial topic in evobio, but the general consensus is that it does not happen, and that the rare things which kinda look like group selection (e.g. eusociality in bees) actually aren’t and can be explained without it.
elcritch•14h ago
To me that seems more to me like a group of academics who just can’t see “how” it’d work. We’ve seen that in field after field where practitioners rarely look outside their own field.
There’s no “magic” in evolution to make it work only on individuals. Evolution is going to follow game theory. In some scenarios the evolution of the group will over time be far more adaptive than that of an individual. It’s a math question, not a biology question.
yesco•13h ago
To me evolutionary pressure isn't an on/off thing, it's like a signal in the noise. It's a vector with a direction and magnitude, facing varying levels of environmental resistance.
To be more specific, if there was enough "magnitude", evolution could potentially arrive at a perfect CRC. But the "resistance" requires a "magnitude" higher than evolution is willing to pay to reach that perfection. Likely in part due to the implicit complexity slope. Considering the systemic malfunction mutation can cause, one might assume this magnitude would be higher than it currently is. However, this is entirely speculation, and not falsifiable.
So when I think of evolutionary pressure I'm considering it as a component of the final vector, where a biologist might more pragmatically consider the total sum of vectors instead. This way of thinking is likely more productive for what they are doing.
As for evolution always selecting for the individual over the group, I'm surprised this is controversial when it's so obviously happening? If that was true how could multicellular organisms even exist? I'm very much not an expert on any of this, but this sounds like perhaps an over focus on DNA itself and not evolution as a whole, but maybe I'm misunderstanding something?
smogcutter•13h ago
Which is… attempting a rigorous understanding of evolutionary biology, rather than idly ruminating.
I hate to use a dork-ism like “update your priors”, but this is actually maybe a situation where it applies? If you’re serious about a subject it’s more interesting to really incorporate the likelihood that you’re wrong than it is to wave it away as semantics or point of view.
yesco•12h ago
Tell me this, which is more productive in an open discussion? My idle rumination? Or the lazy dismissal that lacks any substantive contribution to the ongoing discussion? I can't help but agree with your distaste for "dorkisms".
kbelder•12h ago
So is it just misunderstanding? Maybe they don't understand the question, or we don't understand the answer? Or they're hidebound, or incentivized somehow to be blind to the truth? Epistemological questions abound.
adrian_b•10h ago
Meiosis, which produces both the sperm cells and the egg cells, is not a copying mechanism, unlike mitosis, which generates the other cells of a body.
Meiosis is a random generator, it randomly shuffles the DNA of the grandparents, which is stored in the father's cells, then it randomly selects half of it, producing a unique combination of genes in each sperm cell or egg cell.
The random genome generator together with the following filtering steps that will reject the bad variants, implement an optimum search algorithm for the fittest descendants.
Meiosis has greatly accelerated the evolution of the nucleated living beings (eukaryotes). Because favorable mutations are extremely rare, the probability of a living being accumulating multiple favorable mutations would have been negligible. With meiosis, if in a population 5 individuals have 1 favorable mutation each, there are good chances that soon some individuals will appear who have all 5 favorable mutations, then their descendants may become dominant and replace all others.
Retric•14h ago
internetter•13h ago
RangerScience•13h ago
XorNot•13h ago
It's the peacock's tail effect: what relevance does a brightly colored tail have to a male peacock's actual fitness?
abyssin•12h ago
Retric•3h ago
IVF is also associated with congenital malformations etc. Though it’s hard to separate issues preventing normal conception from issues associated with IVF, it’s likely less viable sperm result in a less healthy fetus.
robocat•12h ago
It also depends on how much of the sperm cell comes from the fathers genes, and how much is generated from the new DNA. I didn't find a clear answer to this but the following indicates that the new sperm cell is at least somewhat generated by the sperm DNA:
I wonder if there are any organisms where the sperm envelope is made by the dad, and the DNA letter is contained inside?And I'm completely ignoring the mitochondria (Dad's copy are not passed on so should be mostly irrelevant to sperm selection pressures). I'm pretty ignorant of this whole topic - high school biology only.
throwawaymaths•12h ago
but each chromosome could be "grandfathers" or "grandmothers", and usually those chromosomes have one or two crossover events, so, the chromosome goes FFFFFFFFMM for example. (where F = grandfather and M = grandmother)
sshine•9h ago
croisillon•9h ago
boomboomsubban•9h ago
croisillon•1h ago
grumpy-de-sre•9h ago
So If you think about it girls get ~5% more genetic material from their father than boys.
throwawaymaths•6h ago
this is probably why distribution of traits in men has fatter tails than in women.
grumpy-de-sre•6h ago
Fascinating to think about the variability introduced by having only a single copy of the X chromosome. Lot's of interesting genes in there, MAOA/MAOB (primary neurotransmitter breakdown pathways), AR (androgen receptor), OPN1LW/OPN1MW (red green color blindness), G6PD, etc.
aaaja•6h ago
There are rare exceptions for genetic disorders relating to sex development, but generally speaking the above is true.
madaxe_again•9h ago
The best sperm will likely result in the next generation of sperm also being good.
We look at the human as the organism, the sperm as the gamete - but perhaps our logic is anthropocentric - perhaps the sperm is the organism, and we are just the ridiculously elaborate reproductive mechanism.
czzr•8h ago
moralestapia•8h ago
A lot of what's behind that "selection" there is still unknown; in principle all sperm are, more or less, the same.
There's also so many external effects in play that no single sperm cell may actually have a significant advantage over others; e.g. the behavior of the seminal fluid (ph, viscosity), the physical location of the egg, etc.
The cartoonish image of sperm swimming towards the egg is pretty much that ... a cartoon. In reality, they're pretty much drifting and their movement is much more like brownian motion than anything else [1].
Reminds me of this sperm race thing that took the spotlight a month ago, after watching the videos [2] ... come on, man.
Only someone who is extremely ignorant and/or is lacking severely on their mental abilities (bordering on idiocy), would believe that thing was true.
1: When the sperm is really close to the egg, however, there seems to be a hormone gradient that guides the sperm, preferentially, towards it.
2: https://x.com/beyoncegarden/status/1916278740214047182
Retric•2h ago
Length of survival is dependent on factors largely put side of sperms control, but sperm lifespan does test for massive genetic abnormality.
So yes 99% never get a chance to compete, but meaningful competition still occurs.
im3w1l•8h ago
derektank•12h ago
adrian_b•10h ago
Both reasons for the high count of sperm cells are true.
There must be many sperm cells to survive the adverse conditions, but there is also intense competition with the sibling sperm cells.
The DNA of the sperm cells is generated by a random generator, which is the meiosis mechanism, which randomly shuffles then randomly discards half of the father DNA.
The sperm competition then discards the random choices that happened to be bad, implementing an optimum search algorithm.
The sperm competition is only a first filter for rejecting bad random choices. Many embryos will die very soon, without ever developing, rejecting other bad random choices.
metalman•9h ago
throe8393o349•9h ago
There is a competition between sperm from different males.
derektank•1h ago
Only a very small percentage of sperm (less than 5%) are chromosomally abnormal. Meanwhile, the vast majority of sperm are morphologically abnormal in some way. So there's not really a tight relationship between genetic problems and sperm fitness. Men with infertility due to low motility, for example, are capable of having perfectly healthy children with those low motility sperm through IVF.
>The DNA of the sperm cells is generated by a random generator, which is the meiosis mechanism, which randomly shuffles then randomly discards half of the father DNA.
Meiosis also occurs in women (technically in the female fetus), but women generally produce only a single egg each ovulation.
>Many embryos will die very soon, without ever developing, rejecting other bad random choices.
A very large number of zygotes/blastocysts survive until implantation, upwards of 50%. And of those that do, maybe 20-40% are miscarried before 12 weeks. All things considered, about 1 in every 4 fertilized eggs results in a successful pregnancy.
So yes, it's absolutely true that the body filters out chromosomally abnormal germ cells and zygotes. But an egg is orders of magnitude more likely to survive than a sperm (even if you take into account the eggs that die in the uterus without being released). And the overwhelming reason is that the egg is simply in a much less hostile immune environment.
eviks•2h ago
- You can reject 99.99% in thousands, not millions
- How is swimming fastest relevant to the genetic information quality inside?
Retric•2h ago
It’s useless for all that multicellular goodness that separates humans from fish. But making viable single cells is a prerequisite for everything that comes after. DNA that can’t make cell walls etc can’t make a person as such there’s a host of genetic anomalies that don’t result in a fetus let alone a live birth.
eviks•1h ago
Add luck doesn't explain millions either, it would sound the same if thousands dropped to hundreds
Retric•9m ago
Many species have thousands of offspring because the odds any one of them reproduces is very low. "fittest" isn’t some guarantee of survival but in implication of reproduction. Perhaps a better conceptual model is people who finish a marathon are a fitter group than those who start a marathon even if someone who failed was potentially in better shape than the winner.
jacobedawson•13h ago
snickerbockers•9h ago
Fun rabbit hole, in since cases they think it's the result of cells from offspring winding up in the wrong side of the umbilical but there are also cases where there was never a pregnancy in which case it has to be wayward sperm but that's absolutely bizarre and far too orthogonal to the sperms primary objective.
And AFAIK they don't have any idea of why this is beneficial to the woman or even to the man who created the invasive cells.
cwmoore•41m ago
anon25783•30m ago
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis
XorNot•13h ago
It's not that you need millions of sperm or that millions of sperm are competing, its that those sorts of numbers are necessary just to make it probably at least 1 sperm even finds the egg while it's still got energy.
derektank•12h ago
seydor•10h ago
gabesullice•10h ago
globular-toast•8h ago
HK-NC•2h ago