Alas, scale ruins everything. Nevertheless, I strongly believe “science is friendship”
Although it could raise the standard of the process itself (methodology, writing) to very high levels, it restricted innovative ideas or unpopular outcomes.
If it works better, it works better. The problem with the society method is it didn't work better than a decentralised scientific system.
I’m having trouble finding a downside besides vote buying or voting rings, now that which way one has voted is now attributable. Can you think of any risks under the new system?
I hope that making things transparent will help reduce the situation where big labs have an easier time getting their work into high impact journals through relationships with the editor.
This is desperately needed as AI could further deteriorate the quality of science if the publishing process is not made more strict. This represents a significant step forward in rigorous science. I hope other publications follow suit.
I highly doubt it's a meaningful factor in public trust.
I suspect the number is low. If that's the case, they're unlikely to be more convinced by the presence of published peer review, either.
Your posting doesn't give me the impression that you're very familiar with "science".
Maybe structural engineers feel safer after their Master's when they traverse a bridge, but I bet that's more the exception than the rule.
[1] https://www.theregister.com/2020/04/02/boeing_787_power_cycl...
That is very unhelpful, to say the least. The amount of noise has increased, but it does not mean that the scientists who know their subject disappeared. They are still around and not any less bright than their predecessors were 30 years ago.
Why should anyone trust science? Skepticism should always be the default position. Putting it on a pedestal to be worshipped is what led us all into this mess. If science needs trust to work, then whatever it is doing is something I'd like to see fail.
When people talk about those who distrust science, they aren't referring to the carefully sceptical. They're talking about people who come to a conclusion and then reject any evidence against it.
I'd actually be curious what fraction of his supporters share his views on vaccines. It strikes me as more likely that they like one of his random, idiosyncratic views and are willing to excuse the anti-vaccine nonsense to get those policy outcomes.
That’s a red herring. No scientist actually says that. What we say is that on some subjects the evidence is overwhelming and to overcome the current understanding you need compelling evidence and theories, not screeches about bias and liberal elites.
No. We are not going to take seriously someone’s pet theory about a new perpetual motion machine, or cold fusion, or lack of global warming, or the ineffectiveness of vaccines, or anything that is contrary to massive amounts of accumulated evidence.
Skepticism is not anti-scientific. Hell, distrusting results and theories is not anti-scientific. Distrusting the scientific method is. There is a difference.
> Putting it on a pedestal to be worshipped is what led us all into this mess.
Scientists did not ask for this. Amongst all high profile politicians, those who whine about science becoming political are those who made it so, by taking contrarian positions to rile up their voter base. Most people who make this point are not being honest. If you are, you should make specific arguments rather than rehash propaganda.
Those that distrust authority as a whole and lean into conspiracies cannot be saved with this kind of thing.
But i think news and science are having similar perception issues recently.
Distrust for news growing among the average population (for some good reasons). People are loosing faith in the objectivity of established media organisations. Most people are exposed to science through these traditional news.
So adding back some sense of confidence and authority to scientific institutions is very valuable to non-academics. Even if they themselves would not read the papers or revews.
The thing is, peer review is not a stamp of quality, and never was. It is just the basic level of due diligence. The referees cannot reproduce the results most of the time for a lot of very good reasons. They are here as a sanity check, to ensure that the work avoided common pitfalls and actually makes sense.
What most people do not understand is that articles are not good because they are peer-reviewed; it’s the lack of peer review that is a red flag. Amongst reviewed articles, a lot of them will turn out to be wrong or flawed in ways that are impossible for the reviewers to find out.
Imagine saying "no" to a researcher with a big social media profile. Imagine 4chan coming at you with style-detection and deanonymization tools simply because their favorite racist or antivaxer got their nonsense rejected and sent their followers after you. And this is not just me feeling this way - quoting myself from a previous comment, and according to the ACL's 2019 survey [1], "female respondents were less likely to support public review than male respondents" and "support for public review inversely correlated with reviewing experience".
A measure that women ~~and inexperienced researchers~~[2] do not support is a measure that favors only those who are already part of the club.
[1] Original here (currently offline): http://acl2019pcblog.fileli.unipi.it/wp-content/uploads/2019..., summary here: https://www.aclweb.org/adminwiki/images/f/f5/ACL_Reviewing_S...
[2] This part has been correctly pointed out as being wrong.
"The identity of the reviewers will remain anonymous, unless they choose otherwise — as happens now."
(Also "support for public review [being] inversely correlated with reviewing experience" means inexperienced reviewers are more likely to support it. Not less.)
As for the anonymous part, that's why I wrote "with style-detection and deanonymization tools". If the Internet could find Shia Labeouf's flag in a day [1], could they find a reviewer based on their writing?
[1] https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/4chan-shia-labeouf-secret-l...
Or are you just for creating classes of people that just can't be critiqued in any circumstance?
This kind of sounds like, 'Wont anyone think of the grifters?!'
Not all academia is Elsevier.
[1] This policy has been altered recently, though, and now submitting a paper comes with reviewing duties.
"Inversely correlated" means that inexperienced researchers were supportive, not:
> A measure that ... inexperienced researchers do not support ... a measure that favors only those who are already part of the club
I would suggest to Nature that this phrase hints at much larger a problem than showing authors arguing with Reviewer 2.
jostmey•4h ago
jxjnskkzxxhx•4h ago
yupitsme123•3h ago
Research gets cited constantly in public debates and is used for policy decisions, so the public should be able to quickly separate the good from the bad, the "maybe this is true" from the "this is empirically proven."
The public has lost a lot of trust in Science because research papers have been used to push political agendas, which can then never be questioned because doing so means arguing with a supposed peer-reviewed scientific consensus.
thomasfedb•3h ago
Replication and meta-analysis are an important part of this.
Most scientists are in fact very conservative with how they claim their results - less so university PR departments and “study shows” clickbaiters.
jxjnskkzxxhx•3h ago
blix•1h ago
Instead I got PIs happy to say that weak evidence "proved" their theory and to try suppress evidence that negatively impacted "fundablity". The most successful scientists I worked with were the ones who always talked like a PR puff piece.
jxjnskkzxxhx•11m ago
JumpCrisscross•3h ago
The public has lost trust in science because 10 to 30% of it is scientifically illiterate [1]. (Tens of millions of American adults are literally illiterate [2].)
That's what lets activists and politicians cherrypick bad science that supports their position or cast a scientific consensus as unquestionable.
[1] https://carsey.unh.edu/publication/conspiracy-vs-science-sur...
[2] https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp
fc417fc802•1h ago
Obviously reproducing results as part of peer review is not a workable (or even coherent) solution. I don't pretend to have any idea what a solution might be. The obvious issue is that academic publications were never intended as political tools and should not be made into that.
On several occasions I've had interactions with laymen where I found myself thinking "if only you hadn't had access to pubmed and way too much motivation we'd both be better off right now" yet I firmly believe that free and open access to information is a huge net benefit to society on the whole.
kergonath•1h ago
It is not, and it cannot be. It is unrealistic to expect a referee working in their free time to confirm studies that often cost millions of dollars. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what peer review is and why it is useful in popular or heavy vulgarised science.
Politicians, journalists, and university press offices are guilty of this, and they are those abusing peer review to give some studies more weight than they deserve.
aDyslecticCrow•4h ago
There is a massive incentive to publish. Inflate the value, inflate the results, and stretch out projects to multiple smaller papers, fake results to make it seem important. This is lazy and fast, and can be caught by a stricter review and scrutiny.
Papers that are properly done all the way through, but with faked data meant to push an agenda, can be disproven by counter research.
fc417fc802•1h ago
Genuine mistakes, logical errors, and other oversights are even more common than that. For all the issues it has, peer review is quite good at catching the things that it's intended to catch.
yummypaint•2h ago
Maybe people could learn about what peer review is before posting their strong feelings about it? The purpose certainly isn't to replicate people's experiments, that happens after publication and not by referees. One of a reviewer's duties is to look at whether the study could be replicated given the included information. That is a very different thing.
Also, just because something has made it past peer review also doesn't mean it isn't controversial in the field.
jostmey•2h ago
This is my academic profile https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=bxn78bkAAAAJ&hl=en
kergonath•1h ago
This is a misunderstanding of the role of peer review. The point is not to prove that a paper is correct, the point is to ensure a minimum level of quality. You are entirely right that most reviewers cannot hope to reproduce the results presented, and very often for very good reasons. If I write 3 proposals over the course of a year to get some beam line on a neutron source, it is completely unrealistic to expect a referee to have the same level of commitment.
I think this hints at a more profound problem, which is that a lot of studies are not replicated. This is where the robustness of a scientific result comes from: anybody can make the same observation and reach the same conclusions under the same conditions. This is the real test, not whether you convinced 3 or 5 referees.
The real value of an article is not in whether it was peer reviewed (though the absence of peer review is a red flag). Instead, it is in whether different people confirmed its main results over the years that follow publication.